Prove God Exists - Act Three

[Inter4]

Yes, I realize that, but I feel we're going off topic here since the question of "what is a Christian" is not one that will lead to conclusion in regards to the existance of any kind of god.

These kind of threads always go off-topic..mods don't seem to mind.

 

[Blasphemous]

These kind of threads always go off-topic..mods don't seem to mind.

The reason I want it to go back on topic is cause I'm genuinely interested in hearing any proof of god's existance, and even if such proof is not presented the discussion over that issue seems to me far more universal, relevant, and interesting than this question of "who is a better (real?) christian".

 

[Birdjaguar]

If god is beyond all reason and understanding, then he will never be "proven" to the limited minds of us mere mortals. And whether or not you accept that is irrelevant to his existance.

 

[earth]

Prove God Exists.

I'm not religious by any means, and I'm sure this has come up more than once in the 51 pages this thread has warranted.

Prove God Doesn't Exist.

 

[Blasphemous]

Prove God Exists.

I'm not religious by any means, and I'm sure this has come up more than once in the 51 pages this thread has warranted.

Prove God Doesn't Exist.

The burden of proof lies with those making claims.
Only a full-fledged Scientific Theory needs disproof to knock it down since it has already been established via logic. If a claim has no logic holding it up, logic won't necessarily be able to knock it down because it's too illogical for that.

 

[CurtSibling]

Prove God Exists.

I'm not religious by any means, and I'm sure this has come up more than once in the 51 pages this thread has warranted.

Prove God Doesn't Exist.

And the answer is the same after a million times:

The burden of truth is not on those who do not believe.
Humans who try and sell us the concept of a god should prove one exists.

 

[shadowdude]

The burden of truth is not on those who do not believe.
Humans who try and sell us the concept of a god should prove one exists.

Shouldn't you first have a reason to disbelieve before you ask for proof?

 

[CurtSibling]

I have.

The religionists have tried to force their creed on all for centuries.

I do not believe their claims - Thus, they must prove bring proof to the table.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

 

[Blasphemous]

Shouldn't you first have a reason to disbelieve before you ask for proof?

Only if you take belief as the basic stance to start off with.
Sounds to me like first you should have a reason to believe (other than brainwash of course) before you starting making huge claims.

 

[Pointlessness]

Prove God Exists.

I'm not religious by any means, and I'm sure this has come up more than once in the 51 pages this thread has warranted.

Prove God Doesn't Exist.

There is a thread for that.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=89191

 

[FearlessLeader2]

You have divided folks into at least two groups Christians and Xtians one of whom you designate as false and the other true. You feel qualified to make the decision on who falls into which group and you quote a few verses to back up the claim. This is mere "slight of hand" and no different than prostestants saying that catholics are false xtians and you should ignore their evil ways and follow us. Or baptists saying all catholics and all other non baptist prostestants are false Xtians, so come and be cleansed.

Now I do agree that evil false Xtians however you define them should not be used to try to refute Christian Truth. If true, Christian Truth does not need any validation from mortal souls. Truth is Truth. And your version of it is just that: your version of it, because you are merely human you cannot know or even understand god's truth.

Again, refer to Jesus' 'horticultural lesson'. 'Trees bearing fine fruit' are Christians following Christ's teachings. 'Trees bearing rotten fruit' are Xians who do not practice what they preach.

How is any of that 'my version'?

Jesus loves children, and it is said that he will exact vengence upon those who do the least of them harm. So how can an organization that protects those who harm children be allied with God?

I do not seek to reccommend ANY organization governed by fallible men to you or anyone else. What I do suggest is that you read your Bible and think about what it is telling you. If you think an organization is in harmony with the Bible's teachings, then join it until you find it at odds with those teachings.

Love your neighbor as yourself is a GOOD message, and the God who espouses it is worthy of worship. Organizations that say it out one corner of their mouths and speak the opposite from the other, or deny a thing publicly and embrace it secretly, are not.

Better for no man to call himself 'abba', and all to be guided by reading the Scriptures as a family, or at best, a neighborhood.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Again, refer to Jesus' 'horticultural lesson'. 'Trees bearing fine fruit' are Christians following Christ's teachings. 'Trees bearing rotten fruit' are Xians who do not practice what they preach.
How is any of that 'my version'?

You are deciding what is "rotten " fruit. If I were a christian, I would leave such judgments up to god. Judge not that ye be not judged and all that.

Jesus loves children, and it is said that he will exact vengence upon those who do the least of them harm. So how can an organization that protects those who harm children be allied with God?

Jesus may love love children, but God kills them indescriminately. Here are two of many examples:

Numbers 21:33 And they turned and went up by the way of Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan went out against them, he, and all his people, to the battle at Edrei.

21:34 And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.

21:35 So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land.

Here god uses his powers to force a fight then kills all the women and children too!

Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

2:31 And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land.

2:32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz.

2:33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.

2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

2:35 Only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we took.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Jesus did not say that God would know them by their fruits, he said that YOU (the reader and Jesus' audience) would.


God created the universe, assuming He exists and what the Bible records actually happened. Given that, what God chooses to do in the world is His business alone.

If you plant a garden, and I, a radish, complain as you are weeding the carrots out because you don't like carrots, who am I to judge you? Shall the watermelons condemn you for killing the aphids? Shall a painting decry the brushstroke technique of its painter? Enough, the point is made.

Don't presume to judge the Creator if you are going to acknowledge that He exists.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Jesus did not say that God would know them by their fruits, he said that YOU (the reader and Jesus' audience) would.

God created the universe, assuming He exists and what the Bible records actually happened. Given that, what God chooses to do in the world is His business alone.

If you plant a garden, and I, a radish, complain as you are weeding the carrots out because you don't like carrots, who am I to judge you? Shall the watermelons condemn you for killing the aphids? Shall a painting decry the brushstroke technique of its painter? Enough, the point is made.

Don't presume to judge the Creator if you are going to acknowledge that He exists.

Ok but as a radish who am I to judge the carrots; it's gods garden.

I was not judging god, I was merely pointing out that god and jesus (who are about as close as you can get without actually being the same) seem to have very different views on harming children.

I think that the problem with christianity is that it cannot figure out what it is or what a christian is. It tries to include many disparate items:
Old Testament
New Testament
Literal bible
Jesus as personal savior
God is love
Salvation by works
Salvation by grace
The trinity
Heaven & Hell

For 2000 years christians have been squabbling over what is true without settling on any conclusion. Every sect and cult believes it owns the truth and finds ways to make the evidence fit their truth. They explain away what they don't like and push what they do. It's all a little too human for me.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

The 3rd and the last three can go out the window.

 

[Birdjaguar]

You may be right, but there are some christians who would declare you a heretic for such talk. From the outside looking in on "christianity", it is very easy to say those folks are all nuts, can't they get their story straight? On a personal note, I do understand the confusion and how it came about. We're only human after all.

 

[Birdjaguar]

A thread of a thousand posts,
To theists and atheists, a toast.
Reason's in the mix
God's in a fix
And via spam, to the top, it floats.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Have we been reduced to limericks?

Theists an'agnostics aver,
to some things there's just no answer,
that a sci-guided mind
ever will find
'cause Atheists know Nothings' there.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Have we been reduced to limericks?

Theists an'agnostics aver,
to some things there's just no answer,
that a sci-guided mind
ever will find
'cause Atheists know Nothings' there.

Nice one FL2. Two threads dedicated to proving god exists, each over 1000 posts, seemed a worthy achievement and before it faded into oblivion I felt the need to offer up a poetic salute and give it one more moment on the podium that is the top of the list.

 

[PantheraTigris2]

The Bible (New Testament, I know for a fact) is filled with people asking Jesus 'for a sign'. "Just give me a sign! One sign! And will serve you forever!" Jesus's reply was that they will receive no sign, but what has already been written in the scriptures about various prophets (Jonas with the whale, for ex.)

But those that did have faith - they certainly saw 'proof'/'signs' - but they didn't need to see them first, in order to have faith. There's no way to cheat God's test. You will be measured by your faith.

And personally, I have already seen more than enough 'proof' in my own life. One time in particular, I prayed "help me through this, and I'll never doubt you again". I said that, because I was almost certain I wouldn't be able to make it. This way I could blame him. Really, I 'shouldn't' have been able to make it through this... but I did!! It was remarkable.

...and there I was, held to my promise.

I have (a lot more) than one experience like this, btw. Several - that cannot be denied in my own mind as all the 'proof' I will ever need.

That's my comment, my witnessing. I have no desire to engage in debate on this matter with you (been down that road in 'Act One' - which ultimately lead to me leaving this place for about a year), so that's all.

'No debating religion and politics' for me, as the saying goes. You will believe what you want, or not believe what you want. Ultimately, you will end up where you desire to be.