Prove God Exists - Act Three

[Birdjaguar]

I have read all of your replies, I just dont really care. bye everyone

Why the goodbye, you never even said hello.

 

[Lord Draegon]

I thought some peoplle would be confused, i'll explain I'm leaving this thread, BYE

 

[Birdjaguar]

But why are you leaving? It seems you were expecting a different reaction to your posts than you got.

 

[Phydeaux]

Umm rays go forever in one way and stop at one point, so you can't use that. Also where the evidence that matter and energy won't last forever? I haven't seen any?

Well one such example is the sun, the sun will not be here forever, and like wise it has not been here forever. So there had to be a point in time that it was put there. When is not the main factor but how it got there, Which would be a creator.

Lastly why must it be created can the universe not "just be"?

Because it is made of things that can not just be, those things had be placed there.

 

[Plotinus]

I thought you might like to see another quote from the website that Lord Draegon psoted from:

"I have spent many hours writing and proofreading essays and articles that criticize the Christian movement known as creationism, and I hope that you find them both exciting and enlightening."

Inexplicably, he didn't say that he hoped that people would shamelessly quote them at vast length on other forums without any commentary or evaluation, and even have the gall to call them "their" evidence. Funny that.

Lord Draegon, this is meant to be a thread about the existence of God, and specifically whether it can be proved. The quotes you have thrown at everyone, and the website they are taken from, are devoted to disproving Creationism. And a pretty good job they do of it too, but that's totally irrelevant. Only a minority of Christians are Creationists, and in any case there are people who believe in God who aren't Christians at all (the name "Islam" mean anything to you?). The issue of how Noah fed his animals has no bearing whatsoever on the existence of God. If you want to argue about that, start another thread to do so - why hijack one on a completely different topic? Especially one where the level of argumentation seems to have risen over the past few pages.

 

[Blasphemous]

WTH, Phyd?
So because the sun had a start and will have an end, the universe is the same?
That's like saying that because a CD is round, all digital media is round. It *could* be true, but it's a vague generalization that is not a necessary truth.

 

[Plotinus]

Incidentally, the "rock too heavy to lift" problem is a classic, with an equally classic answer:

(1) An omnipotent being can perform any (and only any) action that is logically possible.
(2) A rock that is unliftable even by an omnipotent being is a logical impossibility.
(3) Therefore, even an omnipotent being cannot create such a rock, with no harm done to his omnipotence.

The argument about prayer is very good though - another classic, but this time without any decent response, as far as I know. The best answer, I think, is to say that those who think that prayer is about asking God to do things have a simplistic and flawed understanding of it. For example, when we pray, we should do so in order to align our wills with God's, rather than vice versa. Alternatively, we should think of prayer not as petitioning but as contemplation. God isn't, after all, a normal person with whom you can have a back-and-forth conversation. But again, this argument had no bearing on whether God exists or not - only on the rationality or otherwise of the behaviour of some theists.

 

[Phydeaux]

Biblical Absurdities
Here is a list of some verses that are completely outrageous. It makes the bible sound like a children's book. Enjoy.

Lev. 11:13 - 11:23 - Reference to Bats as "birds"

The way they group things is different from ours, so what?

Rev. 12:3, 3, 7, 9, 13, 16, 17, 13:1, 2, 4, 11, 16:13, 20:2, Deut. 8:15 - Reference to Dragons

Dragons would be the name for dinos back then.

Gen. 1:1 & 1:2 - The Earth is created before its sun

So?

GE 4:17 - Cain builds and populates a whole city in only two generations.

1, They probably had more kids back then, because they lived longer.
2, It didn’t say how big it was.
3, It doesn’t have to have a lot of people like today.

GE 1:12, 16 - Plants began to grow before there was sunlight.

It was only one day that they where with out sun, and it was God creating them not them growing on there own.

GE 32:24-30 - God takes part in a wrestling match. He wins by injuring Jacob's hip. (This is one of my favorites)

He came in the form of man, and to get out of the grip of Jacob, he injured his hip.

Luke 4:5 - Jesus sees "all the kingdoms of the worlds" from atop a mountain--something that could only be done, if the Earth was FLAT! It is impossible to see all the kingdoms of the world if it is a sphere.

It would have been in a vision.

Rev. 7:1 - Reference to "the four corners of the earth". This also suggests that the earth is flat. A sphere has no corners.

Here is a clip from
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c015.html

“Some Bible critics have claimed that Revelation 7:1 assumes a flat earth since the verse refers to angels standing at the "four corners" of the earth. Actually, the reference is to the cardinal directions: north, south, east, and west. Similar terminology is often used today when we speak of the sun's rising and setting, even though the earth, not the sun, is doing the moving. Bible writers used the "language of appearance," just as people always have. Without it, the intended message would be awkward at best and probably not understood clearly.”

JB 9:6 (KJV) - God shakes the earth out of its place and makes its pillars tremble. Yet another verse implying that the earth was flat.

He was expressing the power of God.

JS 10:12-14 God obliges Joshua by making the sun and moon stand still (so that he can finish his battle by daylight). Note that this verse implies that the sun revolves around the earth, which was "common knowledge" at that time.

This is what a man saw, he was saying it that way because that’s what he thought happened. Some thing happened that caused the sun and moon to look like that.

Lev. 11:6 - Reference to hares "chewing their cud"

So?

Lev. 11:21-23 - Insects (locusts, grasshoppers and beetles) called "four-legged"

“All fowls that creep, going upon all four”

They where speaking of the feet that they use for cralling. Later it adds the legs for jumping:

“legs above their feet, to leap with upon the earth”

This is where the other legs are added, which look it just happens to make the leg count 6!

Gen. 1:16 - The Moon is created as a "lesser light"

And it is a lesser light.

Isa. 13:21 and 34:14 - Reference to Satyrs

Uh..... I think you should read this again....

Gen. 1:16 - All other stars are created after the earth, its sun and moon, with no mention of any other planets in this solar system

So?

Num. 22:28-30 - Reference to talking asses (note that this could also be a reference to the Christians themselves)

This was only under the power of God.

Num. 23:22 & 24:8 and Ps. 92:10 - Reference to Unicorns

How do you know there are none? For all we know this could be speaking of Rhinoceros.

Special thanks to Ciberpuppi for some of these verses.

 

[Blasphemous]

Plotinus, because nobody knows what god's intention is, I don't think anyone prays to allign their will with that of god. I mean, does anyone ever pray that "god, may Timmy beat his leukemia if that is your will and if that is part of your plan, and if not may he die"?
When I mentioned this arguement against prayer to my mother, she laughed and reached the conclusion that prayer is for atheists, since they do it for the good vibes and all, while religionists who pray are basically refuting their own god's infallability...

 

[Plotinus]

Blasphemous, I don't think it's a matter of praying "Let what you want to happen, happen," more one of praying "Help me to want the same things that you do," if you see what I mean. You don't have to know what God's will is in order to pray that your will should be aligned to it. And if you do, then you could always pray something like, "Let me know what your will is!"

 

[Birdjaguar]

I cannot speak to what "most" or any people pray for or even how they pray, but to me prayer makes the most sense as a way to focus one's thinking on god; like chanting or singing or meditating. In most religions focusing on god is usually a "best pracrtices" methodology. Within Hinduism, there is a Krishna story about a rival king who hated Lord Krishna so much that all he thought about was destroying him. Of course he failed, but when the evil king died, he achieved god realization because he had focused so strongly on Krishna all his life. The sufis use dance to focus on god.

 

[Perfection]

Well one such example is the sun, the sun will not be here forever, and like wise it has not been here forever. So there had to be a point in time that it was put there. When is not the main factor but how it got there, Which would be a creator.

But the matter and energy in the sun may last forever, just because some thing have beginning and ends does not mean that all things do!

Because it is made of things that can not just be, those things had be placed there.

Virtual Particles "Just Be" they do not need to be placed by anything

 

[shadowdude]

But the matter and energy in the sun may last forever, just because some thing have beginning and ends does not mean that all things do!

But how did that matter come into existance? It certainly wasn't "always" there

 

[Blasphemous]

But how did that matter come into existance? It certainly wasn't "always" there

Yeah? How do you know that? Have you ever witnessed the creation of matter/energy? Has anyone?

 

[shadowdude]

Yeah? How do you know that? Have you ever witnessed the creation of matter/energy? Has anyone?

To say that matter is "always was" defies logic.

 

[Blasphemous]

To say that matter is "always was" defies logic.

To say that god "always was" defies logic as well.

 

[shadowdude]

To say that god "always was" defies logic as well.

Thats where logic fails, the human mind is so limited in its capacities.Things which requires higher reasoning are beyond our puny abilities.
The answer to this thread will be found when we die. If God exists we will be judged, if not then we will fade into oblivion and exist only in the memories of others.

 

[Perfection]

To say that matter is "always was" defies logic.

It defies the everyday notion of linear time, but it does not defy logic. It is been scientificly proven that all effects do not have a direct cause, a virtual particle will come in to being with no cause. You have to understand the difference in your mind between logic and causality.

 

[Phydeaux]

It defies the everyday notion of linear time, but it does not defy logic. It is been scientificly proven that all effects do not have a direct cause, a virtual particle will come in to being with no cause. You have to understand the difference in your mind between logic and causality.

It seems that none even knows if there is virtual partices. We know so little about things out there that you can not say that they come from nowhere. Maybe it looks like it but this is such a new subject, it could very well be that they are cause by some thing that we do not know about yet.

 

[shadowdude]

It is been scientificly proven that all effects do not have a direct cause,

do they none the less have at least an indirect cause?

my stance on the post above is my final answer, as it will determine the answer to this thread.