Question on Jason Scoring Best Dates

[CKS]

After reading Lanzelot's best date comments, I went to look at the Jason calculator page, which I don't remember ever looking at before. There I found an excel file that gives modifiers for how the best dates are arrived at. Does this file actually give the current modifiers? Specifically, are there differences in best dates for PTW and Conquests?

For 20K, in PTW you can rush great wonders with great leaders, so the best date is moved earlier for militaristic tribes, but this shouldn't be true in Conquests. In Conquests, we play with scientific leaders off, so I would expect that regardless of tribe, best dates should be later in conquests than PTW. (This did not appear to be the case when I browsed the best dates, but it is hard to tell, really.) On the modifier sheet, there appears to be no date modifier for being scientific, but both the reduced building cost and the free techs would seem to make earlier dates easier with scientific tribes.

For 100K, in Conquests you have the ToA, so I'd think Conquests best dates should be much earlier than in PTW, but this does not seem to be the case.

The ToA would also seem to make quite a difference in domination games.

 

[PaperBeetle]

And in Conquests, Feudalism makes a pretty major improvement to the kind of dates you should expect from 100k. That and Artemis might explain why good 100k games sometimes beat the doms and conqs at the top of the score table?

 

[CKS]

I've realized that this file can't be the current set of modifiers, as it only includes six difficulty levels. Would it be possible for the current modifiers to be posted?

Clearly the 100K best dates must also be different for Conquests, because of the culture required for the different map sizes.

I've looked more closely at the 20K modifiers and concluded that they were set by people who rarely play 20K. You need to take into account the starting terrain for 20K. If there isn't a good 20K site within a few tiles of the start, the 20K date will be poor. Below emperor, you want the 20K city to be the capital. Above emperor, you need the 20K site to be close to the capital, so there isn't any significant corruption. For other games, you can move the palace to better lands if your starting location is icky, but you really can't in a 20K game. You need reasonable food and plenty of shields right from the start, or you can't ever make it up. While this is surely a concern for other victory conditions, it is only a killer for 20K.

Additionally, there are no modifiers for mapsize. This is peculiar, because research speed depends on mapsize, and research speed is vital for 20K. On a huge map, you will be left with no culture to build for big chunks of time, as it takes forever to research the techs you need. On a tiny map, you can get to free artistry (and Shakespeare's Theater) really quickly, so in conquests that gives you a nice metropolis early on.

I'd be interested to hear what people who play other victory conditions think of the best date modifiers for their victory conditions.

 

[AlanH]

The Jason scoring system was originated in Cracker's era and was largely the work of Aeson. He was still around when we started the C3C series, and gave us the benefit of his advice on the definitions of best dates, but I don't think any huge amount of science went into it.

I seem to recall that he pointed out that the Jason scoring system is pretty insensitive to best dates, so it wasn't worth expending a lot of effort on refining them.

If you have spent time looking at it, you may well be the most knowledgeable person currently available on the subject.

 

[Cyc]

I would support the re-structuring of the Jason Score Guidelines.

 

[AlanH]

You do understand that we are down to around 15 players per C3C game each month now?

If you are seriously suggesting adjusting the scoring system, someone will need to (a) work out a new system, and (b) implement it.

 

[Cyc]

What if the Jason Score was just done away with. Use the the game score to break ties. All other categories would be easy to determine.

Or are you saying that civ steve's paticipation is tied to the Jason Score and it's elimination or modification would vastly effect his contribution to the GOTM?

 

[AlanH]

What if the Jason Score was just done away with. Use the the game score to break ties. All other categories would be easy to determine.

Are you suggesting removing score as a ranking factor altogether? If so, all you have to do is to ignore the score rankings and focus on the speed rankings and awards.

If you retain score-related awards and tables using the in-game score then you revert to the bad old days when you had to milk to 2050 AD to get a high score. That was the whole problem that was addressed by the Jason score system.

Removing the score awards and rankings seems an extreme reaction to the possibility that Jason scores *might* not be 100% effective in equalising the scores for different VCs. I don't think it was ever 100% effective at that, even for PtW.

I would also point out that past discussion has indicated that players are more interested in the fastest victory results and awards than the high score ones.

Or are you saying that civ steve's paticipation is tied to the Jason Score and it's elimination or modification would vastly effect his contribution to the GOTM?

How on earth do you get that from any of my comments? civ-steve would have to decide whether he is interested in leading or helping with a project to change the scoring system, and he is away on vacation currently. But I would guess that the scoring system you choose is unlikely to affect his involvement in the creation and management of the games themselves each month.

I'm simply pointing out that creating the Jason score system was a long and painful exercise, undertaken by a number of people who are no longer involved. Changing it now will require someone to work out alternative factors and get agreement to the changes from the community. Then we would have to modify the score-related scripts on the GOTM web site to reflect the changes - scripts I haven't visited for five years or more. That seems to me to be a disproportionate effort in view of the small number of players involved; the small impact it is likely to have on the scores we report; and the fact that score has reduced in perceived importance over the years.

Why does this issue arise all of a sudden now? We've played COTMs for over six years and 70 games. The competition is not exactly in its first flush of youth

 

[templar_x]

i think people are very well used and adjusted to the XOTM as it is. the little participation in this discussion might give some evidence for that.

besides, as AlanH says, most participants really do not compare their results by score but by fastest finish dates.

templar_x

 

[CKS]

While I find discussion of the way the Jason score is determined interesting, I myself have no real interest in changing it. I don't play to maximize score of any kind, as should be clear from my scores. I would like to know what the current modifiers are, just because I like to understand how things work. (I am not agitating for change.)

I do think that fastest finish means very little these days, because of the lack of participants. I have oodles of fastest finish awards to go with my oodles of lowest score shields because I am often the only competitor in my category. My location near the top of the global player rankings by speed is because I am the only one to consistently choose 20K, not because I am good at it. Conquest and domination are the only VC with consistent participation. Finish dates might be meaningful, but they are hard to compare from one map to another, so a greater understanding of the best date formula for the Jason score might help me with this.

With regards to why we have discussions about how the scoring works after this long time, I'll just point out that this happens every so often. (The last time I was involved in one, my big issue was that if a game started to go sour, you were better off, score-wise, dying right away instead of surviving for a while. This is no longer of personal interest to me.) We get new players who don't know how it works, or old players who start to wonder about the details, and it turns into a discussion.

 

[AlanH]

@CKS: While your posts do not seem to be pressing for change, I read them as criticism of the system that might imply a desire for change. My remarks addressed the more direct statement supporting "... re-structuring of the Jason Score Guidelines".

For information, below is the PHP code that calculates the "score modifier" and "best turns" for each VC depending on map size, map type (the 'crossing' parameter), difficulty, Civ3 version and player traits. The factors are set to base values, and then a sequence of switch() statements increases or decreases the values depending on the input parameters.

If you have difficulty interpreting the PHP code to get the information you need, please let me know:

<?php
	
	//	$formdata is an associative array containing the following keys:
	
	//	'crossing' - one of 'land', 'galley', 'lighthouse', 'snaking', 'astronomy', 'navigation'
	//	'difficulty' - one of 'chieftain', 'warlord', 'regent', 'monarch', 'emperor', 'demigod', 'deity', 'sid'
	//	'filetype' - one of 'CIV','PTW','C3C'
	//	'traits' - an array of two or more elements
	//		each of which is one of 'expansionist', 'commercial', 'militaristic', scientific', 'religious', 'industrious', 'seafaring','agricultural'

	// the code produces $formdata['score_modifier'] a multiplier for the base best score
	// and $formdata['best_turns'], an array of turn values for the different victory conditions
	
	// base values
	$formdata['score_modifier'] = 0;
	
	$best_turn = array (
			'conquest' => 180,
			'culture20k' => 330,
			'culture100k' => 290,
			'diplomatic' => 206,
			'domination' => 180,
			'spaceship' => 250
		);
		
	//	map size modifiers - cultural100k modifier only applies to classic games
	switch ($formdata['size']) {
		case 'tiny':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] += 0.0060;
			$best_turn['conquest'] += -50;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 0;
			if ($formdata['filetype'] != 'C3C')
				$best_turn['culture100k'] += 50;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += -15;
			$best_turn['domination'] += -35;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += -15;
			break;
		case 'small':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] += 0.0045;
			$best_turn['conquest'] += -25;
			if ($formdata['filetype'] != 'C3C')
				$best_turn['culture100k'] += 25;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 0;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += -7;
			$best_turn['domination'] += -17;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += -7;
			break;
		case 'standard':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] += 0.0030;
			$best_turn['conquest'] += 0;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 0;
			if ($formdata['filetype'] != 'C3C')
				$best_turn['culture100k'] += 0;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += 0;
			$best_turn['domination'] += 0;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += 0;
			break;
		case 'large':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] += 0.0015;
			$best_turn['conquest'] += 20;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 0;
			if ($formdata['filetype'] != 'C3C')
				$best_turn['culture100k'] += -25;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += -7;
			$best_turn['domination'] += 10;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += -7;
			break;
		case 'huge':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] += 0.0015;
			$best_turn['conquest'] += 40;
			if ($formdata['filetype'] != 'C3C')
				$best_turn['culture100k'] += -50;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 0;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += -15;
			$best_turn['domination'] += 20;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += -15;
			break;
	}
	//	crossing modifiers
	switch (strtolower($formdata['crossing'])) {
		case 'land':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] += 0.63;
			$best_turn['conquest'] += -30;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 0;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += -6;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += 0;
			$best_turn['domination'] += -20;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += 0;
			break;
		case 'galley':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] += 0.62;
			$best_turn['conquest'] += -15;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 0;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += -3;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += 0;
			$best_turn['domination'] += -10;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += 0;
			break;
		case 'lighthouse':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] += 0.60;
			$best_turn['conquest'] += 0;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 0;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += 0;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += 0;
			$best_turn['domination'] += 0;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += 0;
			break;
		case 'snaking':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] += 0.572;
			$best_turn['conquest'] += 30;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 0;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += 3;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += 0;
			$best_turn['domination'] += 10;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += 5;
			break;
		case 'astronomy':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] += 0.56;
			$best_turn['conquest'] += 30;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 0;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += 5;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += 5;
			$best_turn['domination'] += 15;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += 5;
			break;
		case 'navigation':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] += 0.57;
			$best_turn['conquest'] += 35;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 0;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += 6;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += 6;
			$best_turn['domination'] += 20;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += 6;
			break;
	}
	if (in_array ('expansionist',$formdata['traits'])) {
		$best_turn['conquest'] -= 5;
		$best_turn['culture20k'] -= 0;
		$best_turn['culture100k'] -= 0;
		$best_turn['diplomatic'] -= 10;
		$best_turn['domination'] -= 5;
		$best_turn['spaceship'] -= 10;
	}
	if (in_array ('commercial',$formdata['traits'])) {
		$best_turn['conquest'] -= 5;
		$best_turn['culture20k'] -= 0;
		$best_turn['culture100k'] -= 5;
		$best_turn['diplomatic'] -= 10;
		$best_turn['domination'] -= 10;
		$best_turn['spaceship'] -= 10;
	}
	if (in_array ('militaristic',$formdata['traits'])) {
		$best_turn['conquest'] -= 15;
		$best_turn['culture20k'] -= 5;
		$best_turn['culture100k'] -= 5;
		$best_turn['diplomatic'] -= 5;
		$best_turn['domination'] -= 15;
		$best_turn['spaceship'] -= 5;
	}
	if (in_array ('scientific',$formdata['traits'])) {
		$best_turn['conquest'] -= 5;
		$best_turn['culture20k'] -= 0;
		$best_turn['culture100k'] -= 15;
		$best_turn['diplomatic'] -= 15;
		$best_turn['domination'] -= 10;
		$best_turn['spaceship'] -= 15;
	}
	if (in_array ('religious',$formdata['traits'])) {
		$best_turn['conquest'] -= 5;
		$best_turn['culture20k'] -= 10;
		$best_turn['culture100k'] -= 15;
		$best_turn['diplomatic'] -= 5;
		$best_turn['domination'] -= 15;
		$best_turn['spaceship'] -= 5;
	}
	if (in_array ('industrious',$formdata['traits'])) {
		if ($formdata['filetype'] == 'C3C') {
			$best_turn['conquest'] -= 5;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] -= 0;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] -= 3;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] -= 3;
			$best_turn['domination'] -= 7;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] -= 3;
		} else {
			$best_turn['conquest'] -= 10;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] -= 0;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] -= 7;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] -= 7;
			$best_turn['domination'] -= 15;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] -= 7;
		}
	}
	if (in_array ('agricultural',$formdata['traits'])) {
		$best_turn['conquest'] -= 10;
		$best_turn['culture20k'] -= 0;
		$best_turn['culture100k'] -= 7;
		$best_turn['diplomatic'] -= 7;
		$best_turn['domination'] -= 15;
		$best_turn['spaceship'] -= 7;
	}
	if (in_array ('seafaring',$formdata['traits'])) {
		$best_turn['conquest'] -= 10;
		$best_turn['culture20k'] -= 0;
		$best_turn['culture100k'] -= 5;
		$best_turn['diplomatic'] -= 20;
		$best_turn['domination'] -= 15;
		$best_turn['spaceship'] -= 20;
	}
	//	difficulty modifiers
	switch (strtolower($formdata['difficulty'])) {
		case 'chieftain':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] += 0.0075;
			$best_turn['conquest'] += -15;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += -10;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += -7;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += -10;
			$best_turn['domination'] += -7;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += -10;
			break;
		case 'warlord':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] = 2 * ($formdata['score_modifier'] + 0.0060);
			$best_turn['conquest'] += -10;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += -5;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += -5;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += -5;
			$best_turn['domination'] += -5;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += -5;
			break;
		case 'regent':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] = 3 * ($formdata['score_modifier'] + 0.0045);
			$best_turn['conquest'] += -5;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 0;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += -2;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += 0;
			$best_turn['domination'] += -2;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += 0;
			break;
		case 'monarch':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] = 4 * ($formdata['score_modifier'] + 0.0030);
			$best_turn['conquest'] += 0;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 0;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += 0;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += 0;
			$best_turn['domination'] += 0;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += 0;
			break;
		case 'emperor':
			$formdata['score_modifier'] = 5 * ($formdata['score_modifier'] + 0.0015);
			$best_turn['conquest'] += 20;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 15;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += 5;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += 0;
			$best_turn['domination'] += 12;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += 0;
			break;
		case 'demigod': // C3C only
			$formdata['score_modifier'] = 6 * ($formdata['score_modifier'] + 0.0010);
			$best_turn['conquest'] += 35;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 25;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += 10;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += 0;
			$best_turn['domination'] += 24;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += 0;
			break;
		case 'deity':
			if ($formdata['filetype'] == 'C3C')
				$formdata['score_modifier'] = 7 * ($formdata['score_modifier'] + 0.0000);
			else
				$formdata['score_modifier'] = 6 * ($formdata['score_modifier'] + 0.0000);
			$best_turn['conquest'] += 50;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 35;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += 15;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += 0;
			$best_turn['domination'] += 35;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += 0;
			break;
		case 'sid': // C3C only - date factors a guess by extrapolation
			$formdata['score_modifier'] = 8 * ($formdata['score_modifier'] + 0.000);
			$best_turn['conquest'] += 60;
			$best_turn['culture20k'] += 40;
			$best_turn['culture100k'] += 20;
			$best_turn['diplomatic'] += 0;
			$best_turn['domination'] += 45;
			$best_turn['spaceship'] += 0;
			break;
	}
	$formdata['best_turns'] =& $best_turn;

?>

 

[CKS]

Thanks for posting the best dates information, AlanH. It is very interesting, and much more informative than the file posted on the "how Jason scoring works" page.

 

[Cyc]

Are you suggesting removing score as a ranking factor altogether? If so, all you have to do is to ignore the score rankings and focus on the speed rankings and awards.

No, I'm not. I was talking only of the Jason Score factor. Speed rankings and awards is a main focus now. I mentioned using the game score as a tie-breaker.

If you retain score-related awards and tables using the in-game score then you revert to the bad old days when you had to milk to 2050 AD to get a high score. That was the whole problem that was addressed by the Jason score system.

That's not what I'm talking about either. UNLESS that's the award you want to go for. If so, that's an option open to you, but I don't see many people wanting that award. But I am speaking about using the in-game score as a category winner in each of the customary award classifications. A.) Fastest finish in Domination. B.) Highest in game score for Domination.

Have a tie in A.)? Use the score as a tie-breaker. Have a tie in B.)? Use the finish date. The awards will still be given out each game in all the different categories. Your global ranking is pretty much determined by awards. So nothing really changes. People will still get their rewards and still be placed in global rankings.

Removing the score awards and rankings seems an extreme reaction to the possibility that Jason scores *might* not be 100% effective in equalising the scores for different VCs. I don't think it was ever 100% effective at that, even for PtW.

I would also point out that past discussion has indicated that players are more interested in the fastest victory results and awards than the high score ones.

I understand that a lot of people like the fastest victory approach to the game. It is a valid approach to the game. But it doesn't match my playing style. That's not a bad thing, but it is the reason (well, one of the reasons) I don't play the XOTM games. I merely suggested the possibilty of reverting back to the in-game score, as people were saying how the Jason Scoring sucked. I didn't mean to sound extreme, just inquisitive.

How on earth do you get that from any of my comments?

Don't get your panties all bunched up. I came to this site and was immediately drawn into the Civ3 Democracy Games. These games were very strong for years also. Participation was very strong in the begining when there were legendary players like Shiatan, who designed and implemented the RPG world in the second Civ3 Democracy Game. Trouble was the RPG world was very time consuming and Shaitan could not find the help he needed to lessen his burden in starting a new one. YOUR post of "You do understand that we are down to around 15 players per C3C game each month now?

If you are seriously suggesting adjusting the scoring system, someone will need to (a) work out a new system, and (b) implement it.", was a common sight in the Democracy Game forums in relation to bringing up a new RPG. Common. Game after game. The burial of the known RPG world was tied to Shaitan's participation in the game. And we, as a community did not blame Shaitan for not wanting to take the responsibilty a second time. That didn't mean we weren't trying to get another RPG system started. We knew a new one couldn't match the glory of DGII, but we still tried. So seeing your comment easily brought that connotation to mind.

Why does this issue arise all of a sudden now? We've played COTMs for over six years and 70 games. The competition is not exactly in its first flush of youth

It seemed to me that with your very low participation in a game/forum that doesn't require community posting or responsibilty for a group effort (everyone plays their own game at their own speed/time), and all the questions about how/why your participation has dwindled so much, and how participants were saying how a major factor in your scoring system sucked, that I might try to participate at a deeper level - game structure-wise. I didn't bring this issue up. I have seen it discussed before. But it really doesn't matter to me, I was just trying to help.

I have just spent this month once again trying to get back into GOTM. I'm not being very successful in this venture. Although I wanted another avenue where I could play some additional C3C with other participants, this isn't it. I'm not happy with the maps or the starting positions. The games are either way too difficult or way too easy for me. So I'll just bow out once again. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers here.

 

[Lanzelot]

Well, I guess I was the one who threw the snowball that triggered this snow-slide...

The reason for this was, more or less:

• I like to play for the global ranking, mainly because I've been a quite regular submitter for the last 3 years
• But at the same time I like to have variety. The large majority of the GOTM/COTM games I played, were interesting challenging games. But even these games become boring, if you apply the "horseman -> knight -> go whack your neighbors" strategy for fast domination game after game... (And even if you are not playing for domination/conquest, you need to apply this same strategy, if you want a good score.)

The straw that broke the camel's back was my disappointment I felt when I saw that the 1295AD spaceship victory, which I thought to be a decent achievement, was only good for next to last place, and that even some "relatively slow" dominations & conquests achieved a higher ranking in the score table. That got me thinking.

However, I don't want to completely revolutionize the GOTM competition... I realize that this is not practicable for the several reasons people have already stated here and in the GOTM103 Results thread. But after thinking a bit more, I had an idea that might perhaps be used to adjust the Jason scoring system just a little bit to make other VCs more appealing to people who want to compete for ranking and at the same time have a more varied and interesting game experience. And this idea does not require any in-depth research into the game-mechanics, inventing new Jason formulas&modifiers, etc. It should be almost no effort at all.

I think everyone aggrees that klarius was a) one of the best players and #1 in the GOTM ranking for many years and b) a very many-sided alround-player, who played every victory condition equally well and submitted many nearly perfect games during his best time.

So how about the following: we just check all GOTMs/COTMs during klarius' reign as #1, where he won a fastest finish award for any non-con/dom VC and compare his Jason score to the gold medal Jason score. For example in COTM43 klarius submitted a 20K for a Jason score of 6714, while gold went to a Domination of 7798 Jason points. So that's a difference of 86%. We compute this number for all of klarius' fastest 20K games and then take the average. This gives us then the multiplyer by which the current Jason score for a 20K game needs to be adjusted to make it competitive with the con/dom games.

We do the above for the other VCs and arrive at a set of multiplyers for each VC. For ranking a GOTM/COTM we then just take the Jason score as it is today and modify the score for every non-con/dom game by the multiplyer from our table.

If we want to have a bigger statistical base, we could also include the results of other legends who are known for submitting nearly perfect games for a wide variety of VCs, like SirPleb. (Or include all players who achieved a high spot in the global rankings as well as several Eptathlons, e.g PaperBeetle, Chamnix and Kuningas. Forgive me, if I forgot anyone.)

Lanzelot