Questions about Jews, Judaism and so on.

[civ2]

ori
Well, like most other "information structures" (philosophies, ideologies etc), Judaism has "variations" in it too.
This doesn't mean that any specific part is "wrong" on itself, it's just either less understood or less implemented.
Example:
A laser specialist doesn't nessessarily have to know how to operate a computer, so much less to know chemistry.
But all those (and so many more) are integral parts of science (mostly physics-based, or rather "natural") as a whole system.
In Judaism, there's no REAL separation between the "mystic" part (Kabbalah, secrets of Torah) and the "practical" part (Halacha, the everyday law).
Simply because those who standartize the Law are more than usually also fluent in the deeper part of Torah.
Why? For better understanding on how to apply it.

EDIT after your edit:
Depends who you call "mainstream".
Also, the SECRET part is called so for a reason - you won't find it on a newspaper.
I personally (yeah, it's not only my opinion though) really think all those "kaballah teachers" are just making advertisement.
Simply because one has to know so much (starting with being fluent in Tanach and most probably even Talmud) to start learning the secrets.
Again example:
Imagine a nuclear physics class... in kindergarten!!!
Not to mention, learning must lead to action, otherwise it's wasting time.
(OK, I know that the very process of learning is a commandment. But I'm talking about "learn practical" vs "learn inapplicable".)

 

[ori]

there is a rather clear distinction between halakha and kabbalah - and defining mainstream orthodoxy as not hassidic is actually quite reasonable
Kabbalah is not about secret learnings but rather about mysticism that is quite a bit removed from the halakhic discussions of the canonical scriptures and rabbinic rulings based thereon. Of course there is mutual relation since there are halakhic discussions influenced by kabbalists most notable of course Rabbi Luria - and Kabbala has a lot of halakhic influences, but it is not as if there is much difficulty in understanding what tradition is halakhic and what is kabbalistic in nature. Also its not that the notion of reincarnation for example is a "secret" teaching, its that its a teaching mostly based on Rabbi Luria's mystic writings which are not part of most non-hassidic teaching. He is widely recognized for his philosophical contributions to today's Judaism but his mystic teachings which include reincarnation (a notion he did not invent but elaborated on) did not receive as much recognition and unlike halakhic tradition are not a general feature of jewish orthodox teaching much less (of course) the more liberal streams of judaism.

 

[civ2]

ori
Um, I think I said "separation", not "distinction".
Interestingly, even Wiki tells that gilgul was supported by both Ramban and Vilna Gaon - one living before Arizal and another definitely NOT Chassidic.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Maimonedes: I think D3K's question was a fair one, assuming that what he meant was basically "how do Jews view Christians?" I can answer how, for example, pretty much any other religion is viewed by my own.

 

[civ2]

Eran
As long as we live in peace - I view ANY human as a friend, especially while one trys to behave like one (human, I mean).
And as long as everyone knows one's role - and doesn't try to cheat others into his own.
(I hope you got my point, and I hope it sounded the way I meant it. Anyways, the question is weird and OFF-TOPIC... )

 

[ori]

@civ2: I did say he did not invent it - but his notion of it is the one that is prevailing today in those groups that actually accept it. Further there are quite a few other ancient and newer authorities who quite vehemently argue against this notion. With Nachmanides/Ramban the matter is actually quite difficult - since he never actually mentions reincarnation and is only interpreted as supporting the notion (at around his life time and earlier you'll find authorities arguing the belief in reincarnation to be heretic) because of the way he disallows certain discussion of divine secrets with regards to levirate marriage. The Vilna Gaon while not a hassidist was certainly a kabbalist - however today's notion of reincarnation is mostly Luria's.

As for Judaism's view on Christianity: Judaism lost its proselytizing strain a long, long time ago. As such there is no reason for rivalry with regards to other religions. Other religions are of course regarded as not seeing the truth with regards to the divine presence, but unlike Jews they are not expected to either. It is assumed by the Rabbinic literature that in the Messianic age all people will acknowledge and worship the one true deity, but prior to that any non-jewish person respecting the seven noahide laws (prohibition of idolatry, murder, theft, certain sexual conduct [essentially adultery, incest, bestialiy and male homosexual intercourse] and blasphemy, doesn't eat the flesh of living animals and is part of a society establishing just laws) is leading a just life*.

*Rabbinic discussion expands on these quite a bit but there is no aggreed upon canon that definitely adds more.

 

[civ2]

ori
OK, you probably know about Kabbalah's history more than me in this case.
I'll just stick to Chassidus.
(It has made a "no-CD patch" with a "user-friendly interface" for the Kabbalah anyways. )

 

[stormerne]

I have a question. I hope someone can help me with it. It's not intended to be smart-ass or provocative. It's a genuine enquiry that I hope one or more people can answer.

A year ago I moved permanently to the United States from Britain. I've been enjoying getting to know all the nuances of my new home. One thing I noticed is the prominence that appears to be given to Jewish people and Jewish affairs. Naturally I have no problem with that at all: I have friends of all religions and none, and it's part of the cultural tapestry I'm learning about. I wondered idly one day what the percentage of Jews were in the total US population. Judging by the attention, I expected to see maybe 10% or more. Imagine my surprise when I found out the latest government figures from the US Census Bureau: out of every 85 Americans, 84 are not Jewish!

So I wondered why that was the case. Are Americans well known for giving disproportionate positive attention to minority groups in general? Perhaps not. And even if that were the case, why not give proportionate attention to people of my own religion, Buddhism (not that I'm particularly interested in any more or less attention for Buddhists)? After all, according to the US government there are nearly half as many Buddhists in the US as there are Jews. Could it be instead that the prevailing Christian majority are rather modest? I have no real idea. Perhaps someone can give me pointers.

I realize this is not a theological question. Perhaps it's more of a cultural question. And I'm sorry if this question is nothing to do with the 95% of world population who do not live in America - please forgive me if you're bored! But if anyone can shed insight into this phenomenon, I'd be very grateful. Opinions and perceptions as well as facts are all very welcome to help me try to understand my new home better.

 

[Lone Wolf]

So I wondered why that was the case.

Jews (both religious and not) are sneaky, prominent, educated, cultural, successful, influental bastards.

 

[civ2]

stormerne
1. I'm Jewish.
2. I'm not American.
3. I'm not so sure what attention you are talking about.
4. And I'm not sure if like it myself - mostly cause it's negative.
5. I'm not sure you're (or especially the-previous-post-guy) gonna like it, but somehow Jews appear to become the attention topic pretty often - and (in my opinion) it's mostly due to ANTI-Jewish notions that bark here and there.
I'd call it an "anti-troll" effect - like Jews being trolled at, and thus increasing the attention.
6. Don't know and don't care too much.

 

[warpus]

One thing I noticed is the prominence that appears to be given to Jewish people and Jewish affairs.

Can you give some examples? You'd probably get a better answer. (and I am curious exactly what you mean myself)

 

[Joecoolyo]

Can you give some examples? You'd probably get a better answer. (and I am curious exactly what you mean myself)

I think he means, looking at our numbers, we have a very disproportionate amount of attention/influence in America.

 

[civ2]

Somehow I think this is a clear OFF-TOPIC.
Why didn't I say this to begin with...
Anyways, Jewish Nobels.
And I think this question should be either clarified much more - or better just skipped.

 

[Maimonides]

Maimonides, first off

Maimonides
Thanks.

Glad I could help. I kinda have one foot in Ziggy's world & one foot in civ2's so I could understand what both of you were saying while understanding why you weren't understanding each other. I usually lurk these days, but I just had to hop in.

If Maimonides is right, then I definitely need to stick more to "what I think" - or at least to say it in my own words.

There ya go!

You were sort of responding to CFCers the way you would respond to a yeshiva student which doesn't work. One has to tailor his response to the questioner so that the questioner understands the response & can gain some insight from it.

Oh, and even though English IS my 3rd language (which definitely makes me unaware of most IDIOMS) - I still can speak rather good, don't I?

Yes. Your English is quite good for a non-native speaker.

To all, as ori pointed out, reincarnation is not a mainstream Jewish belief. The Wiki link that civ2 gave contains an explanation why his sect of Chasidism believes in it.

ori
Um, I think I said "separation", not "distinction".
Interestingly, even Wiki tells that gilgul was supported by both Ramban and Vilna Gaon - one living before Arizal and another definitely NOT Chassidic.

That link also says, "The notion of reincarnation, while held as a mystical belief by some, is not an essential tenet of traditional Judaism. It is not mentioned in traditional classical sources such as the Tanakh ("Hebrew Bible"), the classical rabbinic works (Mishnah and Talmud), or Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith."

It's cool that your sect holds that belief, but it shouldn't be misconstrued as mainstream Jewish doctrine.

Maimonedes: I think D3K's question was a fair one, assuming that what he meant was basically "how do Jews view Christians?" I can answer how, for example, pretty much any other religion is viewed by my own.

Very well.

The answer I gave him was a honest one in that I prefer to let people define themselves. I'm far from an expert on Christianity so it's hard for me to see how my opinion on it matters. Obviously, I disagree with many tenets of Christianity, but I'm wary of being baited into a debate here.

Granted, he didn't ask how I view Christianity. He asked "what are Christians to Jews?" This is virtually impossible to answer as the correct options are limitless. Every Jew has his own opinion & every Christian is different from the next.

ori seemed to recognize this & instead answered the question, "How does Judaism view Christianity?" I think his answer to that question was pretty good. civ2's answer was kind of a polite olive branch which I think is also appropriate.

ori
I'll just stick to Chassidus.
(It has made a "no-CD patch" with a "user-friendly interface" for the Kabbalah anyways. )

I hope it has the no-raze patch, too!

I have a question. I hope someone can help me with it. It's not intended to be smart-ass or provocative. It's a genuine enquiry that I hope one or more people can answer.

A year ago I moved permanently to the United States from Britain.

Welcome! Just drop unnecessary use of the letter U & you'll fit right in!

I've been enjoying getting to know all the nuances of my new home. One thing I noticed is the prominence that appears to be given to Jewish people and Jewish affairs.

Given by who? What prominence do you see Jewish affairs being given? Bar Mitzvahs rarely cause a disturbance or slow traffic.

Naturally I have no problem with that at all: I have friends of all religions and none, and it's part of the cultural tapestry I'm learning about. I wondered idly one day what the percentage of Jews were in the total US population. Judging by the attention, I expected to see maybe 10% or more. Imagine my surprise when I found out the latest government figures from the US Census Bureau: out of every 85 Americans, 84 are not Jewish!

There must be allot of Jews where you live if 1 out of every 10 people you know is Jewish. Despite what statistics say, I'm pretty sure we are less than 1% of the population in the U.S.

So I wondered why that was the case. Are Americans well known for giving disproportionate positive attention to minority groups in general?

Given our history, I'd say, "no." Even recently, states have been rushing to legislate discrimination of homosexuals.

Perhaps not. And even if that were the case, why not give proportionate attention to people of my own religion, Buddhism (not that I'm particularly interested in any more or less attention for Buddhists)? After all, according to the US government there are nearly half as many Buddhists in the US as there are Jews. Could it be instead that the prevailing Christian majority are rather modest? I have no real idea. Perhaps someone can give me pointers.

I realize this is not a theological question. Perhaps it's more of a cultural question. And I'm sorry if this question is nothing to do with the 95% of world population who do not live in America - please forgive me if you're bored! But if anyone can shed insight into this phenomenon, I'd be very grateful. Opinions and perceptions as well as facts are all very welcome to help me try to understand my new home better.

Forgive me, but, like Warpus, I have no idea what exactly you're asking.

 

[civ2]

Maimonides

I already said I'll try the different way.
One thing though that I tend to strongly disagree:
Why do you keep calling Chassidim a SECT???
There's a big mistake in that.
There are NO sects in Judaism - it's either Torah-based (then it is Jewish) or not.
(There's a much bigger logic to call Reform a "sect" - but even that would be quite incorrect. And anyways, the PEOPLE stay Jewish regardless of which Rabbi they listen to.)
Also your differentiation betweem "mainstream" vs "chassidic" is wrong for the above reason.
It's ALL based on the same Torah, under same rules given to Moshe at Sinai.
What I mean is that Litvish is not a yota more "mainstream" than Chassidic - both ARE.
(Or were you talking about something else - probably even a bigger misconception? Sorry. )
Word "sect" implys something (negative) outside the "normative" (up to the level of becoming another religion) - but as I already said, THIS is not such a case.
So such usage implys very negative and wrong understanding by outsiders.
Please try not to use it in such a way, OK?
Sorry for the above - but I feel close to insulted when hearing it this way...

EDIT:
Even Wiki agrees with me.

Until recently most Jews rejected the term denomination as a label for different groups and ideologies within Judaism, arguing that the notion of denomination has a specifically Christian resonance that does not translate easily into the Jewish context. However, in recent years the American Jewish Year Book has adopted "denomination," as have many scholars and theologians.[1] Other commonly used terms are movements, branches, trends, streams, or even flavors of Judaism. This article uses the terms interchangeably, without purporting to affirm the validity of one term over another.
The Jewish denominations themselves reject characterization as sects. Sects are traditionally defined as religious subgroups that have broken off from the main body, and this separation usually becomes irreparable over time. Within Judaism, individuals and families often switch affiliation, and individuals are free to marry one another, although the major denominations disagree on who is a Jew. It is not unusual for clergy and Jewish educators trained in one of the liberal denominations to serve in another, and left with no choice, many small Jewish communities combine elements of several movements to achieve a viable level of membership.
.....
Traditionally, Judaism is not divided into religious traditions based on theological difference. However, a wide array of Jewish communities have developed independently, distinguishable by their varying practices in matters that are not considered central ideas within Judaism, such as Maimonides' list of the Jewish principles of faith.
.....
Religiously speaking, most Jewish communities have historically held that there is no relevant role for "dogma"; rather, there is halakha (Jewish law) only. The extent to which every Jew as an individual adheres to Jewish law has long been regarded as a matter of personal preference, although the idea has always been prominent that every Jew should be as observant of the laws as they are able. The Enlightenment had a tremendous effect on Jewish identity and on ideas about the importance and role of Jewish observance. Due to the geographical distribution and the geopolitical entities affected by the Enlightenment, this philosophical revolution essentially affected only the Ashkenazi community; however, because of the predominance of the Ashkenazi community in Israeli politics and in Jewish leadership worldwide, the effects have been significant for all Jews.
.....
In the late 18th century, there was a serious schism between Hasidic and non-Hasidic Jews. European Jews who rejected the Hasidic movement were dubbed Mitnagdim ("opponents") by the followers of the Baal Shem Tov, who had previously called themselves Freylechn ("happy ones") and now began to call themselves[citation needed] Hasidim ("pious ones"). Some of the reasons for the rejection of Hasidic Judaism were the overwhelming exuberance of Hasidic worship, their untraditional ascriptions of infallibility and alleged miracle-working to their leaders, and the concern that it might become a messianic sect. Since then all the sects of Hasidic Judaism have been subsumed theologically into mainstream Orthodox Judaism, particularly Haredi Judaism, although cultural differences persist.
.....
Orthodox Judaism. Orthodox Jews generally see themselves as practicing normative Judaism, rather than belonging to a particular movement. Within Orthodox Judaism there is a spectrum of communities and practices, including Modern Orthodox Judaism, Haredi Judaism, and a variety of movements that have their origins in Hasidic Judaism.

 

[jeps]

I have a question. I hope someone can help me with it. It's not intended to be smart-ass or provocative. It's a genuine enquiry that I hope one or more people can answer.

A year ago I moved permanently to the United States from Britain. I've been enjoying getting to know all the nuances of my new home. One thing I noticed is the prominence that appears to be given to Jewish people and Jewish affairs. Naturally I have no problem with that at all: I have friends of all religions and none, and it's part of the cultural tapestry I'm learning about. I wondered idly one day what the percentage of Jews were in the total US population. Judging by the attention, I expected to see maybe 10% or more. Imagine my surprise when I found out the latest government figures from the US Census Bureau: out of every 85 Americans, 84 are not Jewish!

So I wondered why that was the case. Are Americans well known for giving disproportionate positive attention to minority groups in general? Perhaps not. And even if that were the case, why not give proportionate attention to people of my own religion, Buddhism (not that I'm particularly interested in any more or less attention for Buddhists)? After all, according to the US government there are nearly half as many Buddhists in the US as there are Jews. Could it be instead that the prevailing Christian majority are rather modest? I have no real idea. Perhaps someone can give me pointers.

I realize this is not a theological question. Perhaps it's more of a cultural question. And I'm sorry if this question is nothing to do with the 95% of world population who do not live in America - please forgive me if you're bored! But if anyone can shed insight into this phenomenon, I'd be very grateful. Opinions and perceptions as well as facts are all very welcome to help me try to understand my new home better.

This question has a lot in it, but to try and answer as much of it as I can -

Firstly, Judaism, as a religion, has done a lot of things over the course of its history to make itself stand out.

Historical evidence of this is best demonstrated during the plague, when Jews survived in mass numbers, due to the fact that judaism demands cleanliness, while others ignored hygiene at the time. As so many Jews survived in comparison to others, they were targeted for "poisoning the wells", and killed in mass numbers, purely because Judaism values cleanliness. (a rule in Judaism states that before you are able to say the blessing over any bread / grain product, you must wash your hands ritually. As well, we have a ritual mikvah [bath] that is used for purifying religiously as well as merely cleaning dishes).

In the same way that made us stand out, so to did our value on education. Much of the emphasis of Judaism religiously in on the study of torah, and there was a movement who believed that the more one knew in general, the more one would be able to understand the torah, and as such a HUGE emphasis was put on education of jews. While not a hard and fast rule, educated people are more likely to be successful.

Furthermore, the media will very seldom focus on people who are in the middle. They only care for the top and bottom ends of the spectrum, other than the occasional time that "Joe Plumber" is needed for a segment on "Main Street" as a gimmick. Other than that, we care about the BEST people, and the WORST people. The mother who loves and cares for octuplets, and the sixteen year old who really doesn't know how to deal with her one accidental pregnancy. The rags-to-riches story, and the riches-to-rags story (or, if you're donald trump, riches-to-rags-to-riches). We like to see the mighty fall, and the weak become mighty. This is important because it throws out all demographics. Sure, 40% of the world might be asian, but only 3/15 richest men in the world are asian (and 2 of those are indian, so only one oriental). The elite are what the elite are, not what the majority of people are.

Finally, for this section, the reason a lot of jews are in the so-called "elite" is twofold. One, which is incredibly common for pro-athletes, is all the people telling them they can't. There were quotas on university admissions for jews (only 2 jews could get into a dental school a year, or something to that effect). How many times have you heard of an athlete motivated by all the people who told them they couldn't do it? (For one, the all time NFL rushing leader, Emmitt Smith was told he was too slow and small to be a running back in high school, let alone college. That motivated him to succeed, or so he says in the article I read yesterday). Secondly, connections. This is huge. The way to get places is to know somebody. Nepotism happens, its life. Jews are a very close community, we all know each other (within reason, of course). The community DOES often help each other out. In the same sense, so do churches, but as individual churches, not a full community of all roman-catholics.

So that is why you seem to get the impression the media pays a lot of attention to jews.

HOWEVER, the perception is truthfully just that. Look up articles about Mark Cuban. THERE ARE TONS. Now show me an article (without looking up +"Mark Cuban" +Jew) that mentions how he is Jewish. They don't (for proof, I went over the 20 most recent in google news. 0/20 of the word "jew" and "hebrew". However, he is. The fact that its not mentioned when it could be shows that the media does not deliberately pay extra attention to jews, as trust me, they don't miss an opportunity to talk about things that they think people care about.

 

[_random_]

What do you think qualifies one as a Jew for purposes of the law of return? How do theological liberals, secular Jews, Jews who convert to other religions, and Messianic Jews factor in?

 

[civ_king]

If a building was on fire on the Shabbat and you knew a non-Jew was in there and knew for a fact that they would die without you putting the fire out, would you save save their life?

 

[jeps]

If a building was on fire on the Shabbat and you knew a non-Jew was in there and knew for a fact that they would die without you putting the fire out, would you save save their life?

I am not shomer shabbas (observant of all the laws of the shabbat, including electricity and all that), but 100% yes, even someone who IS ultra-orthodox. 99% of laws in judaism fall to Pikuach Nefesh.

Pikuach Nefesh states that you MUST do everything possible to save a life, as there is nothing more important than that. The only exceptions are:
1) Conversion/worshipping idols
2) Incest/Bestiality/Adultery/etc.
3) Killing (outside of a case of war/assault/all that)
4) Placing oneself in more risk than the person you are trying to save - can't jump without a parachute from a plane to save someone in a river. Suicide is not allowed so risking your life is fine to save another, but going on a "suicide mission" is not.

What do you think qualifies one as a Jew for purposes of the law of return? How do theological liberals, secular Jews, Jews who convert to other religions, and Messianic Jews factor in?

MY OPINION IS: A jew is someone whose mother was jewish and has not converted away, or anyone who has converted to judaism.

However, this is an issue that is hugely conflicted in the jewish community, so ask 2 jews get 3 answers probably works in this case.

 

[ori]

The law of return is an Israeli law that doesn't actually leave much room for opinion and is not actually a definition of who is jewish.

It applies to all jewish persons whether through maternal descent or conversion as well as any children and grandchildren of such regardless of maternal descent and any spouses of eligible persons regardless of religion. It removes eligibility from those who had been jewish but have voluntarily converted to another religion.

This conflicts quite sharply with halakhic definitions who is a jew and even covers persons that would not be regarded jewish by today's reformist traditions that allow paternal descent.