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Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Theral, Aug 23, 2016.

  1. Eggon666

    Eggon666 Chieftain

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    I'm a bit lost. In both examples you have penalty for the same number of cities, just different of puppets which SHOULD NOT matter. What is the value "updated" with? The only case I could think of is that there was some bug earlier and now the game recalculates everything and updates the proper value.
    Example 1 you mentioned might refer to the variable MaxNumberOfCities (or something like that). The science penalty was used to be calculated in Civ5 based on this variable which is the highest number of non-puppeted cities you ever had at any time. So, if you have 5 cities and lose 1, you have 4 cities, but the MNOC remains 5. If you then found or annex another city, you go back to 5, which does not increase your MNOC and therefore does not increase tech penalty either. But it has nothing to do with puppets which should not count to MNOC and/or tech penalty! :undecide: This looks like a bug to me.
     
  2. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    See: https://github.com/LoneGazebo/Community-Patch-DLL/issues/4498

    Behavior:
    MNOC only non-puppet cities.
    MNOC is only updated when conquering a city (before choosing to puppet)

    Example 0:
    You have 4 cities. MNOC is 4.
    You conquer a city, you temporarily have 5 cities , so MNOC is 5, you choose to puppet it, MNOC is still 5, but you have 4 cities + 1 puppet.

    Example 1:
    You have 4 cities. MNOC is 4.
    You lose one city, MNOC is still 4, but you have 3 cities.
    You conquer a city, you temporarily have 4 cities , so MNOC is 4, you choose to puppet it, MNOC is still 4, but you have 3 cities + 1 puppet.
    You conquer back your city, you have 4 cities + 1 puppet, so MNOC is 4.

    Example 2:
    You have 4 cities. MNOC is 4.
    You conquer a city, you temporarily have 5 cities , so MNOC is 5, you choose to puppet it, MNOC is still 5, but you have 4 cities + 1 puppet.
    You conquer another city, you temporarily have 5 cities + 1 puppet, so MNOC is 5. You choose to puppet it, MNOC is still 5, but you have 4 cities + 2 puppets.
    You conquer another city, you temporarily have 5 cities + 2 puppet, so MNOC is 5. You choose to puppet it, MNOC is still 5, but you have 4 cities + 3 puppets.
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think I would consider this a bug.
     
  4. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    Agree on that.

    I consider this "rule" as confusing, so I would be in favor of changing it. But last time I've argue on this subject with G, the answer was something like "Its easier to code like that, and warmongers hardly need a buff so I won't change it."
     
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    This may be a dumb question, but couldn't we arrange another time to check for city number? Such as when a war ends? It would be a good enough solution.
     
  6. Tzar Sasha

    Tzar Sasha Tzar of Nowheresville

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    Could the puppet button do an automatic subtraction of 1? If it always increases on capture, unless you have an 'empty' from city loss, then decreasing on puppet button press would always restore the correct value. And even if you had lost some cities, new puppets would just reduce the number until it caught up with the correct value as after that point it would go up again when first gaining a city to puppet.
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  7. Bascule2000

    Bascule2000 Warlord

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    I've never understood why that calculation uses max # cities, instead of current # cities.
     
  8. Questdog

    Questdog Prince

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    No, God of the sea is much better in this situation and it would seem to me in most situations where you get the Great Barrier Reef.
     
  9. psparky

    psparky Prince

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    In the vanilla game, you were not penalized if you disposed of the city on the same turn that you acquired it. This included razing it, liberating it and trading it. If VP worked the same it would be an improvement in my opinion. Trading a city on capture was a bit of an exploit but I believe VP already removes that by disallowing trading of damaged cities. When I'm playing an essentially peaceful game where I don't plan on increasing my city count, I'm very reluctant to weaken an aggressive neighbour by taking and razing one of their cities, or liberate a city state or other city, because that will penalize me for the rest of the game. It feels that the current system takes away some strategic options.

    I would actually prefer to go further and just use the current number of cities rather than the maximum ever held. Using the maximum penalizes the victims of war more than the warmonger. A seven-city civ that loses two in a war is saddled with a significant penalty that makes it much harder for them to recover. Does anyone know the rationale behind the original design decision to use the maximum?
     
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    sounds like there is no issue then. you weighed the two pantheons and decided sea was the better pantheon in this case. There are plenty of situations were 2 pantheons are similar, but one is just a little better.
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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  12. ChickenFighter

    ChickenFighter Chieftain

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    Hi,

    I've just started my second game with Vox Populi (9-19) and I'm not sure if I understand how religious pressure works yet.

    None of my cities are getting pressure from my religion even though they seem to be close enough. I've tried building a few churches but that didn't seem to have any effect on pressure. Meanwhile, a neighbor of mine, India, doesn't seem to be having any issues spreading his religion to his cities with his pressure. I didn't really had this issue on my first playthrough, what am I missing here? Here are some screenshots for better visualization.

    Thanks and sorry for the probably stupid question!
     
  13. Questdog

    Questdog Prince

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    I am not saying it is broken or anything, it just seems to make sense that any religion that worships the sea so much that atolls get extra yields would flip over the Reef.... I mean, I will never get the Reef again for an early settle, so changing it or not will probably not have an impact on me.... But I still think it ought to be included in God of the Sea.
     
  14. Grabbl

    Grabbl Prince

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    India is a special case as it receives (much) additional pressure for followers of their own religion (and is a tough religious opponent for that reason, such that sometimes it's near impossible to overcome the pressure). That's why you might think that you can't get pressure going.

    Making the travel distance between your cities shorter (building roads) is a way to increase pressure, as well as building religious buildings (such as churches) and temples, and converting cities, of course. However, with India close, you'll need a lot of inquisitors and missionaries to stabilize your religion. Sometimes, it may be easier to adopt India's religion and save the faith or simply conquer India.
     
    ChickenFighter likes this.
  15. DakaSha

    DakaSha Chieftain

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    Dido capitulated, becoming my vassal, but a few turns later Augustus declared war on her, without dragging me into the war. I wondered if it was supposed to happen the next turn, but rome they immediately made peace the next turn, strangely enough.

    Am I not supposed to automatically go to war with anybody who declares war on my vassal? (Ive never played vanilla)
     
  16. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Probably a bug. They're supposed to declare war on you.
     
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  17. DakaSha

    DakaSha Chieftain

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    :-/ Well thats unfortunate. But I am playing the beta
     
  18. pza

    pza Prince

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    Grabbl covered the most important things, but I wanted to add, that each follower of a religion in a city increases its pressure on cities in range, even if it's not the majority religion. So having more followers also increases your pressure. India's trait increases this effect alot.
     
    vyyt, Grabbl and ChickenFighter like this.
  19. ChickenFighter

    ChickenFighter Chieftain

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    Thanks guys, that helped me quite a bit!

    After playing some more I honestly don't know how I would ever be able to play Civ V without this mod again! Well done to both the devs and the community!
     
    vyyt likes this.
  20. pza

    pza Prince

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    what happens, if i get nutmeg from an admiral and indonesia is in the game and founds a city which produces nutmeg? can that even happen? is my nutmeg not unique anymore then?
     

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