Ramesses in Diplo Hell (Deity)

[Lain]

Playing a game after a longish break. No full updates on everything, so I will pick a different game to continue my series soon. But I still don't want to lose this one~, so advice is appreciated.

Rolled this start. Looked like an easy win for a soft comeback.

Spoiler :

But soon, there were evil guys everywhere for some reason, stealing land.

Spoiler :

South



North

(I settled city #2 there to deny him copper, his settler party was 1 turn from settling it...)

Soo I decided to go full Egypt style on one of them.

Spoiler :

Picked Ragnar as target because he had stone and I was hoping he would build Pyramids. Spy screen revealed that he is building them in his capital. But I couldn't delay the attack any longer, so I took other cities and left him stone city + capital. Ended up waiting for 10-15 turns like a moron. But he eventually built them and I captured them immediately. Then he hooked up iron because he 20%'d some of my chariots with his ...., but I needed to make peace anyway because economy started to suffer a lot and I had some really stupid combat rolls.

Should I have wiped out Ragnar without caring about Pyramids? And just build them myself? Might not have worked though. Also I didn't have the production to just take every city anyway. Big problems now because he wants to take revenge.

Sat back and started teching with rep scientists. Tried to manage diplo. On the other side of the continent Hyuana is getting 15+ cities. Ragnar declared on me. Have to do something, maybe beg gold in the right moment, he might peace vassal if someone reaches Feudalism.

Everyone loves each other. Big problem. Not sure how to manage the situation. Haaalp. Being rusty doesn't help, one wrong decision and he might peace-vassal.

Forum has been a bit quiet with Deity games lately (only 1 running for weeks) so I thought I'd post this. It is 150 BC now.

Do I tech Construction and finish Ragnar?
How to break out? Might lose Lib. Cannons is ok, but certain AI will run away with the game and I have to fight through another monster to touch him.

Can he actually peace-vassal if HE declared on me? Would be nice move.

Also, what is wrong with land distribution here?

150 BC save and 4000 BC save attached, if anyone wants to try too

 

[Major Tom]

I might like to try later but no BUG/BAT/Buffy mod?

Ragnar is willing to negotiate? Time to get something for Civil Service? Bribes, techs, diplopoints. Also you have GP soon for something nice.

 

[Lain]

I am using BUG mod (see screenshots), is there a problem when downloading the file?

He won't negotiate yet. I am a bit unclear on peace-vassal mechanics in this case. It seems silly that he is the one declaring on me and might peace-vassal midwar to someone who is friendly towards me. And I end up in war with both. But this might very well happen here?

 

[Fippy]

You can avoid peace vassal by begging from the 3 other guys, you are probably right and he could vassal to HC
Code divers might tell you it's nps begging for bigger amounts, but if i just want safety i might ask for small like 10g.

Clear case for Cuirs imo, both iron and horsies are there and you will try to bulb Edu and win Lib still?
Your cities are certainly not bad for food and whipping, and you will have police state too.

I would want Caste quickly, some cities should run more scientists.
Need beakers to maybe offer paper + something else (if they would trade MC..) for Philo to HC.
(if you bulb Edu and get Philo, would be nps giving him paper, you would be faster).

With 10 turns peace, you could sit back and let Ragnar play around until he talks.
Does not look like he's dangerous for your defenses.

Thebes could start a missio, if you would plan using one of your cities for Paci (if you get his Philo).
There's certainly no time here for random buildings, gold gathering or Burcap building anymore, go race with HC

 

[Lain]

Yup I can beg 1 gold. There is just one small problem I begged from HC ~20 turns ago. So maybe I am basically dead if he wants to take Ragnar as vassal.

There is another option: bribe Mao or Toku vs Ragnar now. Costs Civil Service, but then no peace vassal (probably HC won't go vs 2 guys?). What you think? I could bribe Toku and close borders -> Ragnar won't capitulate + can ruin relations between them. Aaaaa.

OR ... if HC vassals him, I could maybe bribe Toku/Mao vs HC because they won't be friendly anymore. I don't know.

==

I wanted to switch into Caste some turns ago, just needed to whip some defense vs Ragnar. If I go that route with bribing, maybe it makes sense to take stone-city from him with catapults? Annoying culture.

==

Regarding Cuirs... it's always a bit scary for me to go Cuirs vs 10+ city guys. If they want they can reach Rifling fast, no? And someone like Toku has 1 million units. But I can try and post updates every 10 turns here~ to make sure it doesn't fail . Yup I guess I can win Lib. Need to get Aest/Lit/Music/Nationalism for Cuirs aswell though.

My "plan" was to build Oxford and go Steel. Grinding out win. But if Cuirs work here it would be nicer.

 

[MegaLurker]

I wonder if it would have been better to go after Toku. Yes, he's protective, and Tokyo is on a hill. But WC rushes can deal with that (could have probably taken Tokyo while it still had 0 cultural defense). There's also the fact that Toku has horses so he's building a lot of chariots instead of archers. There's also the fact that he's not going to trade with you, and is likey to declare on you eventually. Lose a few more chariots per city maybe, but chariots are cheap enough. Ragnar is much easier to make friends with.

In any case the diplo situation looks like Huayna might be a runaway with possible peace-vassals. Might be un-winnable no matter what with the way religions played out here.

 

[Fippy]

20 turns ago should be fine, but not 100% sure.
Best to try now, then plan something else if no luck

Rifling is still far away for them, maybe HC will have them once you get there..but the other 2, no way

With cheap forges + police state Cuirs are very easy to mass, i would have no worries.
+ they are faster, especially once you have many and are running.
Could get HC quicker this way.
(+ cannons are boring, but shhh i did not say that ~~)

 

[Lain]

Oke, so HC actually gave me 1 gold. So I just ignore Ragnar, make peace as soon as possible and go Cuirs?

What about doing something fancy like bribing Toku on him + closing borders. Then make peace and hope HC takes him as peace-vassal so Toku and HC are at war? I just put everyone into unit spam mode for no reason?

Ragnar will obviously peace-vassal anyway as soon as possible with his 4 cities. Anyway, going Cuirs should be ok. If it looks like I might lose Lib I pick Nati and self-tech MT/Gunpowder? Not the earliest attack date ever probably.

 

[Lain]

I wonder if it would have been better to go after Toku. Yes, he's protective, and Tokyo is on a hill. But WC rushes can deal with that (could have probably taken Tokyo while it still had 0 cultural defense). There's also the fact that Toku has horses so he's building a lot of chariots instead of archers. There's also the fact that he's not going to trade with you, and is likey to declare on you eventually. Lose a few more chariots per city maybe, but chariots are cheap enough. Ragnar is much easier to make friends with.

Maybe, I just went for Ragnar mainly because of the wonders. Him building Great Wall + Pyramids also meant that those hammers didn't go into units. Only wonder Toku ever builds is the 10-Axemen-Wonder .....

Another important point is that scouting Ragnar's land was easily possible so I could maneuver around his borders, pick off a worker here, threaten multiple cities there, take 2 cities upon declaration. It's impossible to scout Toku beforehand so you are always shooting into the dark kind of. Makes for strategically dubious warfare early on. With Ragnar I was also able to rule out him having copper and I pillaged roads outside his cultural borders to slow him down a lot (before the war actually started).

Also it seemed like jungle-ish land to the south which is not very attractive early on. Again, no scouting possible.

Toku still might have been the better target though, maybe someone will try that just to compare .

In any case the diplo situation looks like Huayna might be a runaway with possible peace-vassals. Might be un-winnable no matter what with the way religions played out here.

Will try the Cuirs-Breakout . Luckily, everyone except Ragnar is big enough so peace-vassaling shouldn't happen so easily. If I can reach 15+ cities with Cuirs I fancy my chances late-game.

 

[Fippy]

Nice, well yup that's what i would try.
With Construction already i might whip some Cats and grab his stuff, but seems like too much effort in your situation?
Caste scientists soon are also too good for sacrificing pop now, imo.

Too much unit spam with the bribe, i would think yep.
It's always difficult giving predictions when not playing a game yourself (not that much into it then ), but your beakers rate should be more than fine to wait for strong units you can spam without care later.

I think it's an interesting game, and your position not bad at all.
Pyra games are always doable imo, and Spi is just great for that.
+ while Toku likes these guys, he's never trading much around.
He could probably be ignored for some time still when you have Cuirs.

 

[Lain]

Okay, need Plan B now played 10 turns and Ragnar still won't negotiate. Next turn all peace treaties run out and if I don't do something I might be at war with literally everyone.

Scenario: HC takes Ragnar as peace-vassal and bribes Toku+Mao against me ...

Soo I could do this now:

Spoiler :

(can't bribe Toku, he is getting Civil Service, pff)

But then he will pump units and whole situation sucks a bit. Meanwhile, HC doesn't have Paper yet. I am 2 turns from Education (GS ready for bulb~) ... can probably trade Paper+money for Philo. He went Nationalism and now down the Engineering route, probably Guilds next. Unless he declares on me, then there won't be any trade .

But it's 100% I can win Lib and take Nati. Military Tradition I don't know?

Anyway, what to do now with Ragnar problem? It is also becoming a bit scary, if he had a brain he could probably take my city. It's all a bit stupid right now.

Some screenies... 300 beakers, wee.

Spoiler :

Halp, they want to kill me. Also I don't like how HC is developing. At this rate he will take Toku as peace-vassal zzz.

PS: changed avatar to raise morale in my empire. We can do thiz guys.

 

[RedKi-rr]

300 Bpt at 100 AD...And you game was muhc more difficult than mine Anyway, the diplo looks quite awkard. It is difficult for me to suggest something.

I can just to try to raise morale

From home I will look at the save too.

Also...is it worth to find other continent?

 

[Fippy]

You have to try begging again from all 3 first
Longer waiting times increase chances but you should already have ~20% after 10 turns again.

Would be good knowing that result before bribing, if you get no peace then yup have to at least make Qin safe.
HC is actually less dangerous than him cos he's further away.

Bit weird for sure how Rags will not talk, and also silly ~~
But what could you have done hmm, attacking against longbows (expected he gets them)?

Sounds funny, but you could also use Spears now for the units you build lol.
Rags has Jumbos.

 

[Lain]

Toku and HC won't give 1 gold. Mao will, but he is the one I can bribe anyway .... soo, what now? Bribe Mao and hope?

Funny thing is, Mao would declare on Toku if you give him enough stuff, but I can't. Hmm.

Yup, some spears would be nice. Can take Hunting if I bribe Mao

 

[Fippy]

Hmmm..if you have peace with Mao i would probably not bribe him, thingy is Rags feels comfortable enuf currently.
Or he would talk.

Bringing Mao in would change that.
Let's take a close look at techs, he can offer Toku Feuda for war against you.
Good enuf for you cos you have low power, and not enuf for bribing him against Mao probably.

It's your biggest problem currently imo, no peace with Toku means your biggest danger now would be not peace vassal, but Rags bribing him on you.
But..he might not do that if he feels no real danger.

It's messy either way, but i would keep my options open and bribing Mao is your last card.
Against Toku if Rags bribes him in anyways.

+ you can give Toku CS for hunting + gold as he will have it soon anyways, and see next turn if you can bribe him on Rags with Paper if you get really uncomfortable.
Then you would be safe.
Imo you are not safe if you bribe Mao in now.

 

[Lain]

Complicated stuff ... will play a few turns I guess, safe from Mao and see what happens~. Toku is the biggest danger...

I can tell Toku to stop trading with Ragnar, should do this maybe?? Does this work or can Ragnar bribe him anyways?

 

[Fippy]

Oh yup that works too, if they refuse talking they cannot bribe.

I just remembered (and learned that the hard way lol), new peace with Mao means you have to cancel old one yourself. Very annoying bug, you are not actually at peace with 2 treaties and 1 running out.

 

[Lain]

Yup I was aware of that, also had some bad experience with that. So I played a few turns.

Begged from Mao, made Toku stop trade with Ragnar. And traded some stuffs.

Spoiler :

Still don't like my position. I guess HC can peave-vassal him and bribe Toku if he wants .... then I could bribe Mao on HC, but Toku might take my capital, lol.

I got Edu and put beakers into Philosophy, can trade Paper for it from HC. What now? Tech Aesthetics-Literature (Heroic Epic)-Music-Nationalism and try lib MT?

I get a random Great Person soon. Can start golden age with Paci and get out some guys. That's why I want to grow my cities to happy cap now first. What do I want though? 1 GS for Lib bulb ... what else? Great Merchant for upgrading War Chariots?

Not sure right now. Would you do something like this?

Oh I also traded for map. I hope HC steps on a lego when he wakes up tomorrow. Look at his land.

Spoiler :

And tech stuff just for fun.

Spoiler :

Hmm.

 

[Lennier]

It's impossible to scout Toku beforehand so you are always shooting into the dark kind of. Makes for strategically dubious warfare early on.

Once you have alphabet, you can use spies to scout Toku's land. More costly than using a unit with an OB (as the spies are liable to be caught), but possible.

 

[Fippy]

I made a save with some markers, that's about how i would adjust currently

Your cities are big enuf for your golden age goals, i find gaining speed in all areas (GA person, beakers, Spear) more important now.
I would want to hurry out of this troublesome situation, impress Rags with getting some stuff done.

I did not think about Aest or Natio yet, could be too risky without having music if HC techs Edu.
Also there are few small techs left to trade for Aest, maybe best teching that first and eventually get HCs gold.
MC hopefully becomes available for Paper / Philo soon.
Forges & barracks only buildings i would want (when Rags finally stops being an idiot ).