Ramesses in Diplo Hell (Deity)

[Fippy]

lol you like underestimating your chances
What do i do with 60 Cuirs..i capture some HC cities, of course ~~

This guy has nothing but old stuff currently (not even own Cuirs), yup he has plenty techs he *could* get but so far he does not have them.

He's also the only AI left that really matters imo, even if you take just a few cities and destroy some units it's good
Good relations, pfff..tech Rifling and come again with Cavs if he complains ~~
They are great cos only Rifles get bonuses vs. them, and with cannons that's still doable (you get some nice tech boosts now from Mao).

 

[Lain]

Small problem is that I am losing 150 gold per turn right now . Thought I go into peace mode and chill. So many wars are not good for my heart, aaa. But sure, if I could take 3-4 cities that would be great. And if Cuirs die that at least reduces maintenance... lol.

Aiming for Domination here.

 

[Fippy]

Some small steps, free market helps and you can sell world maps to Mansa + Toku (and 1 resi to Mansa).
When Mansa gets gold again, i would sell him 1 tech for switching into free market for better routes

Equipping your cities with theatres and stuff is not what i would do currently.
Let's look at what HC has, Statue of Liberty (!) stands 4s of your Scythian city (that Mao gives for capitulation).
Also Notre Dame. Imo you need no happy buildings in many cities.

An example would be Bjorgvin, crappy city that's only good for whipping more Cuirs.
Boudi would agree with me, she regularly overpowers guys like Julius (Infantry) with Cuirs
It's what mounted does well, new units move 6 tiles towards where they are needed.

I would agree that places with cottages are worth equipping with banks and stuff.
But those with farms and some hammers only are best equipped with unit whipping
Then eventually a courthouse, then wealth & forget.

 

[Lain]

Okay, I went to say hello to HC



Fixed economic stuff. Agree about whipping units, but I want to wait at least to Cavalry. Already meeting some Machine Guns. So basically you would whip Cavalry until HC is dead?

No stopping and switch to workshop stuff? -12 Happiness in some cities from whipping already ouchy.

Might want to stop after HC drops below me in score ... he would bribe Toku vs me after 10 turn peace-beg ends.

I guess it is a style thing. I rarely win before 1700 AD because I don't go so aggressive (if you didn't give that advice, I would have left HC alone probably... pretty stupid of me ).

 

[Fippy]

Nice
Hmm i would consider my chances, some cities (usually those without food and / or cottages) i do not care about recovering, new units can help capturing new cities instead even if they are getting a bit outdated.

So i like gifting them back to vassals when there are only whip slaves left or if i cannot do that, mentioned CH & working hammer tiles with wealth.

And some i like building up, usually i do both in such situations.
Imo it's not black & white like war & peace buildup, while new cities are captured plunder gold pays for expenses.
Cities that care about economy can whip the buildings needed meanwhile.
I only really sit back if i cannot make progress Like if HC would have already had Infantry.

Cavs may not be the right thingy to do, but maybe they are.
Cannons are always something to consider as well, even for mounted (cos you already have stacks).
Both techs are usally not that far away, especially when other AIs catch up and trades become available.
Keeping your mind open and experiencing which units can still do what is great fun.
So are vassals, once unit needs slow down your economy can be relieved by gifting cities back that are not contributing enuf commerce (or specialists, if Caste + Rep becomes tempting again).

Just such a great game, so many options

 

[Lain]

Yup, I agree with everything. Though this was about the hardest Cuirs war I had so far. I prefer going for someone like 6-city-Lincoln with Cuirs . Having to kill 200+ units is not normal, is it?

Looking at save from yesterday, would you say that it was 100% winnable? Some stuff went for me, like having backup from Toku. And I think Mao could have beelined Rifling instead of going Steel-route.

Well, now the game is won of course. Some people like the challenge of "winning as fast as possible". But that's not so important for me. On the other hand, I care about win % of my games.

I took 4 cities from HC and played to 1500 AD. Imho I had to stop because I didn't have quite enough guys ready to deal with this:

Spoiler :

He had cannons and a stack of cuirs ready. I didn't want to lose city with Statue of Liberty, so I made peace (he paid all his gold). In a few turns Toku would have joined the war for HC, I had nothing to bribe him myself.

Soon he reached Infantry and he laid down railroads. After all the stress with pure horsie war, I decided to chill and finish it "slowly". Teching now, got Biology, Communism, traded some stuff. Going for Assembly Line now and then Physics + Artillery. Cuirs/Cav/Infantry/Artillery. Wipe out my continent and that will be enough for Domination. I am sure it was possible to overrun everyone with Cavs and get earlier victory.

Will post victory screen later, but excitement is over . Thanks for the advice and will check out the other games posted on here. some screenies.

Tech now

Spoiler :

Empire

Spoiler :

 

[Fippy]

Great game, those are remembered..killing 6 city Lincolns not so much
100% win nopes surely not, but that's what made it interesting imo.

Not always going for fastest victory too, if you are in the mood for playing more by building up why not.
Nobody likes losing ~~
Thou if it's a great game with surprisingly strong AI performance, i do not mind much..usually prefer those over easy ones.
(i never use nukes, will rather lose)

 

[Lain]

Yup I don't use nukes either. That being said, HC declared on me soon after and took 5 cities lol. Fighting him back now, Infantry+Artillery vs Mech Infantry + Marine .......

This is like my Lincoln game vs Genghis. But I will overwhelm him . Mansa trying for culture, but 70 more turns luckily. Could have been easier.

I hate that sound effect when 20 of your guys die on the same turn. Really painful.

 

[Lain]

Luckily, most problems can be solved with numbers though . 9T before culture win of evil guy.

 

[RedKi-rr]

Lain, Great game! You are my Hero

Did you 2-pop whip most of the cities into Arti/Inf? From 6 to 4 pop. Dod you use Police state?

 

[Fippy]

Nice stack

Yup something like that can work for Cavs too (and Cuirs earlier), when comparing units they are not much weaker than Infs (outside cities) with pinch. Machine guns are weaker than Infs against them, by that time AIs have plenty unit options and rarely choose only those that work best vs. Cavs.

We must make up for plenty of them dying against cities with whipping more and more, but that's usually nps once you have 15+ cities.
I think key is expecting plenty losses, and not being bothered about them. Or about cities stacking loads of anger and being small, overall they just get replaced by new ones from the AI.

 

[Lain]

Thanks for showing this different approach. I tend to get into trouble when picking "early" wars like that. But I want to improve on that for the sake of becoming more versatile. Hoping to gain some inspiration looking at games like yours. Medieval warfare remains a mystery to me. The right balance between "whip enough troops" and "don't fall behind economically" seems a bit elusive. I can do one of them, sure, but not both at the same time. Not at that point in the game at least.

Picking the right battles seems to be an important part of that, though. You only lost 15 units all game. That seems like nothing. I thought medieval warfare would be more of a graveyard for troops. Trebs are nice and all, but it seems you would lose some of them for each city you take? Protective Longbows are somewhat painful? And you were up against a top-tier unit spammer with 10 cities. That seems quite remarkable. With cannons, sure, but you are fighting at tech parity. Or even at a disadvantage with those protective longbows, samurais and stuff. Maybe this is one of the deciding factors.

I seem to be doing some things wrong economically in the midgame. As your game shows, going to war like that hurts the GPP generation. But without that, I would probably fall behind even without going to war. You seem to be doing quite well without having to rely on bulbing. You are keeping up with everybody at a faster tech pace. Even with stuff like AP resolutions that certainly slowed you down. It's not like you had much land here. The capital is great, but apart from that...

Is it all about growing the capital as quickly as you did? And not wrecking it even during war? It seems that I am missing some subtleties. I don't grow my capital as aggressively as you did, but I don't whip it to size 5 either. Hmm. I usually end up having to turn my slider to 0% for many turns when I go to war. Being in a war and happily teching at the same time is somewhat inconceivable to me. I really want to understand this more. It would almost be a spiritual breakthrough of sorts.

Like when I discovered the power of Pacifism early on. I used to think that the only source of GPP income was the Great Library. And it didn't occur to me that growing cities actually makes sense for a long time (as opposed to whipping libraries, courthouses and whatnot everywhere because I read somewhere that Slavery is the best thing ever). So I am hoping to experience a similar epiphany regarding medieval warfare .

At this point in time, I even struggle to pull of a respectable Elepult on a soft target. I read that 500 BC is a good date for that. I am happy when I manage 200 BC without wrecking my economy completely. And even then, the rest of the game becomes an uphill struggle for me. Really annoying and these weaknesses dictate many of my games. Not being able to pick early wars for fear of losing control of the game. Waiting for cannons or cuirs every game can't be the way to achieve a 90% win ratio on Deity.

I will post an Elepult game soon, I think. Maybe that will shed some light on things.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The key with medieval warefare is building Heroic Epic in a nice hammer high city with several settled Great Generals (Great Military Instructors - ideally 3-4 and Theocracy or optionally Vassalage, which will provide three promotions. Build just Trebuchets there and upgrade them in the field as needed to CR3.

You should lose few of any units after 4-6 of these hit a city to soften it up. Can also sacrifice foot soldiers to weaken a single strong defender when getting short on Trebuchets.

 

[Lain]

CR3 trebs are great, but not always available early enough. Here are the odds I get with CR2 trebs attacking a hill city. I lose about 6-7 of them before getting decent odds. 11%. So that's at least 500 hammers down the drain per city. Supporting a large army in enemy territory usually forces my research to 0% while losing money (see screenshot). Bombarding takes time too. It's just a terrible situation and I will most likely lose this game.



Capital growth seems to be a huge factor aswell. My capital (size 11) has a pathetic beaker output at a similar date in the game. But I'm not sure how you grow this thing to 15+ with just pigs. (What is that bug by the way? Library giving 4 culture for some reason, only noticed it now...)



From an Elepult game. It just doesn't seem to work for me. Feel like the game is becoming 100x harder when going for medieval action. I will practice that more.

 

[Fippy]

1230 AD just seems late for that kind of army?

 

[Lain]

Yup, it's the result of other bad stuff happening . And it all started from Elepult imho. Changes the whole game. Hm, I can upload 1 AD and 800 AD save, if you or someone else want to give a diagnosis later maybe . Please~. Probably tells more than screenies.

It all goes wrong somewhere. 0% research at 1 AD without Currency can't be good. But how to pay for jumbo war otherwise?

I played a Monty economy.



PS: 800 AD I thought Isa is going for me because stacking on borders and was @ pleased when started plotting. So I started pumping units. Then she declared on Louis instead and I joined. Then we got to the position in the screenshot. She vassals Louis and I lose basically.

 

[Fippy]

lol your Avatar

Looks like a difficult map, good teching Willy as first target with longbows already (and could tech Engi?). Huge Isa and weak 2nd city cos she stole wheat. No gold, gems tiles.

In your 1AD save, if you adjust cities a bit more towards research you could gain currency in 1 turn.

But yup i can see why you struggled with this game, just not very good cities.
You were able to build some up nicely within possibilities, but many start with not much (and then there was Isa..)

 

[Anysense]

I looked into 1AD save and can point out a few things. First the idea of stealing wheat without being creative is just mad. Also all of your cities could do with an extra grassland farm or two. Normally I seek for 6-7 surplus, its required to grow fast and of course to whip units. Btw you discovered monarchy in 200 BC but stayed in despotism, though at the moment your cities were well below happy cap even without monarchy. Again that shows lack of food.

 

[Lain]

I had the wheat until 300 BC or so under my control (you can still see 46% culture). Was a good production city early on. There were not many other choices that blocked land at the same time. I only lost the tile because she settled around me and has 3 cities pressuring the tile. But the early benefit was still kind of worth it, I would settle it again (since she didn't found Buddhism in 2nd city, then it would have been pointless). Deity AI culture is really not that impressive in many cases. Isa is not creative either. I popped borders a few turns after her and claimed the wheat for a long time.

Also I planned on taking her out. After she expanded to 10+ cities I had to change plans.

The lack of food surplus is more to the point. More farms would have helped a lot.