Random Deity Troublemaking
- Thread starter Nad
- Start date
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
These flips are starting to tick me off... a lot.
I think we need to address el_filet's questions ASAP: how are we going to try to win this thing? Nothing's guaranteed at this point, obviously. I need some sleep and to look at the save before I try to make any extensive comments, but it's obvious our strategy from now on should be vastly different if we are going to try for a military win (units units units units units units units units) versus a non-military one (money money money money money money money).
Suggestions, comments, thoughts, questions, more rants about the flips?
Renata
Suggestions, comments, thoughts, questions, more rants about the flips?
Renata
Nad
Known Troublemaker
This is crazy...
As for victory...military seems very ambitious at this point. We have few quality cities and lots of big AIs to deal with. Having said that, artillery is a great equalizer, and bombers are simply rude...in previous games I have felt cheap in using bombers for military wins.
Diplomatic would be the easiest from here...we'd just have to hang on in and try to ensure we somehow built the UN, with a big prebuild and saving cash for tech steals. With the amount of fighting the other AIs have endured, I'm pretty sure we'd be the least-hated civ.
Space would be a compromise between the two...more difficult than diplomatic, considerably easier than military. Resources could be a problem...
I think everyone should chip in with their opinion on this. I would say military is too difficult from here and is a bit pointless anyway if it comes from bombers destroying the opposition. I would aim for space from here but try to build the UN just in case we have to bail out
. We may end up with a very close space race that goes to the wire, and those games are always memorable 
.Renata...UP NOW
Nad...ON DECK
bed_head7
Sir Bugsy
Microbe
el_filet
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Military is very difficult, but we need to make sure we have the defense and artillery to deter an aggressor. The immediate path to diplo and space is the same, so I think we should continue down that path. We need to get our culture up. These flips are killing us.
microbe
Cascaded Mansion
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 4,596
Diplo seems the obvious choice. Space would be quite difficult as those AIs are really big (especially Sumeria) and I doubt we could research faster. The only way is to steal from Sumeria, and MA with Russia and Mongols once Sumeria declares on us. And let AI fight and stay in Facism.
What's the culture situation? Is Sumeria close to 100K?
I agree with Nad on Military, as I am also a bit tired of the pattern of arti+bombers == conquest. But we still need to maintain good forces just in case. A stack of 20 arti should be kept. This adds to unit support, however. If we were religious I'd revolt to democracy.
What's the culture situation? Is Sumeria close to 100K?
I agree with Nad on Military, as I am also a bit tired of the pattern of arti+bombers == conquest. But we still need to maintain good forces just in case. A stack of 20 arti should be kept. This adds to unit support, however. If we were religious I'd revolt to democracy.
I'll check on the culture situation re: Sumeria, and I'll put an assessment of our finances in the turn report. Bugs is right that we'll need some defense, so the next ten turns will be full of that, anyway. I'm going to need at least another day to play, though; this stupid paper is not going well. Will that be a problem? If it is, I could be skipped; I'd rather play, though, if no one minds the delay.
Renata
Renata
Nad
Known Troublemaker
Take your time, no rush. Industrial turns take a while anyway and the game is in the balance...the next 40 turns will determine whether or not we get into a winning position. Enjoy the crunch time and look forward to your report .
.This is stupid. I can't play tonight as I hoped; I have to work until 8 or 9 and that was going to be my civ time. I may as well drop this -- what have I played, one turn? I'm so frustrated, and so sorry to drag it out like this.
Two more weeks until my classes are done and I have a little bit of my life back, but until then I'm just banging my head against a wall trying to commit to an SG.
So sorry again. I hate this.
Renata
Two more weeks until my classes are done and I have a little bit of my life back, but until then I'm just banging my head against a wall trying to commit to an SG.
So sorry again. I hate this.
Renata
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Sorry to hear that Renata
Nad
Known Troublemaker
Sorry to see you go Renata, if you change your mind your place will still be open .
C'est moi, looking forward to my turns, will play tomorrow.
.C'est moi, looking forward to my turns, will play tomorrow.
Nad
Known Troublemaker
Just to let you all know I won't be able to play tonight since I have some car problems that I'm having sorted this evening, but should be okay to play tomorrow.
Nad
Known Troublemaker
Random Deity Troublemaking, inherited turn 1250AD
Little pointer: don't keep artillery units in flip-risk cities, especially when railed...they don't help with reducing flip-risk and will be lost if the city does flip...keep them safe in the core.
Examine our empire. We're in for an uphill struggle and it looks like a peaceful victory is our only chance. We must keep Russia sweet in particular, they could wipe us out at a moment's notice if they felt so inclined. Change military builds to infra, especially commerce-producng buildings...we need cash, more cash, and cash on top of that. NIx research, we can't wait 45 turns for atomic theory. Fiddle with mm, wake up the workers, our tiles are far from optimized.
Could I iterate the point Microbe made earlier? Please keep an eye on per-turn deals. Right now we have a Sumeria lux deal that can be renegotiated and is massively in their favour as it stands...how long has this been the case? I hope we have not been missing out on the benefits of renegotiating for too long. As it is, the difference from renegotiation is MASSIVE. The deal was dyes + ivory for furs + spices. It is now dyes + ivory for furs, spices, wines, 1073g + 16gpt. Sheesh.
What is worse is that our rep is almost certainly about to be trashed. Byzantium is down to 2 cities yet we are supplying them horses for 10 more turns. I don't know the circumstances in which that deal was made, but I did warn specifically about the dangers of trading resources to a dying civ earlier in the game...was our need for this deal so desperate? The only means I can see of saving our rep is trying a tech steal from Byzantium and hoping for war. In fact after the deal with Sumeria I can do this now. But since Byzantium has some decent tech I go for a careful steal rather than immediate (2092g) - it succeeds, and we have refining, but no oil. Boo.
I demand espionage from Byzantium...they refuse. Oh well, worth a try
Early: make a deal with Portugal to keep them in the tech picture...they are our best hope of 2fers. We give a number of tech and pick up saltpeter, communism, democracy and a bit of gold.
Byzantium and Mongols make peace in 1260. Byzantium is reduced to 1 city in 1270.
Sell dyes to Russia for 875g.
Middle: I have a real dilemma regarding the Byzantines. We have 6 turns on the horses deal...can they possibly survive that long? I doubt it. They have no tech worth stealing, and I am concerned that even if we were to be caught they would not declare war, and I do not wish to waste precious gold for that scenario. i decide to gamble and hold...if Byzantium comes up with a decent tech I will go for a steal, but I'll keep an eye on Caesarea for any tell tale signs of collapse.
In 1280AD I cannot bear the strain and decide to spend gold to examine Caesarea (187g) - it is defended by only 2 guerillas and 3 rifles (1 conscript, 2 elite) - they are all uninjured, which would suggest that there is no immediate attacker, but the elite rifles would contrarily suggest that there was ongoing fighting. Great help
I decide to delay again.
Russia demands and receives 100g.
Late: OMFG IS THAT HOW FAR BEHIND WE ARE???!!!
Russia goes modern and starts the UN
Sumeria is also modern. We are 7 essential (and ridiculously expensive) techs away, and they are both scientific, which means that 2 modern age techs might already be discovered. I'd say our chances of a diplomatic victory are somewhere between zilch and diddly squit. I'd say our chances of a space victory are diddly squit more than zilch
We have to do something now or this game is over. As the host I'm going to take the initiative right now, in what I think is our only chance: a superpower war. We could well end up squashed, but we might as well go in a blaze of glory.
Immediate tech steal from Sumeria...you know the result:
Sign Russia against Sumeria for 24gpt. Then sign free rop.
Sign Mongols against Sumeria, giving ivory and picking up incense, oil, wm + 19g.
Portugal has some gold so give them refining for free artistry, 101g + 13gpt. We do NOT want to sign in Portugal against Sumeria, because Sumeria will crush them without noticing and we will lose our best 2fer partner.
Buy silks from Russia for 28gpt.
Russia promptly completes Hoover Dam and Sumeria starts the UN...if that is a cascade then Sumeria will surely land it.
Portugal and Byzantium make peace, which could prove to be handy for us.
We reach 1300AD and incredibly Byzantium is still alive and our rep is saved!
Next player: don't want to put too much pressure on you but your turn will be critical! We need to catch up in tech and we need to do it fast. I have spent sparingly and you have 2622g + 423gpt with 2 more stock exchanges due to complete very shortly. Stealing wll be the best resource, and that means Sumeria...in turn, that means we need to get ahold of espionage (which we can, cheaply), build the Agency, and plant a spy. Then steal judiciously.
We have an interesting situation with Byzantium now, with 3 options:
1) We can keep them around as potential 2fer partners or a source to steal from (not worth it, IMO, since with only 1 city they won't be getting much tech...BUT, they are scientific and their free modern tech, if we get them there, could be crucial!)
2) We could sign an alliance with Russia against them, in the same deal including an expensive tech (atomic theory) for a massive gpt payment...we then hope Russia eliminates Byzantium quickly so we get out of the per-turn payment and pick up a tech very cheaply (if we do this, I wouldn't do it just yet, since any Russian landing near Caesarea will be swarmed upon by Sumeria...maybe hold this option seeing how things go).
3) Least likely but also potentially the most rewarding - we could declare war and try to take Caesarea ourselves (it has 2 wonders and coal) - but the problem is that we would be facing Sumeria
Good luck, do your best, and have fun! It's a crazy situation we're in but I just have a feeling that there might be a sniff of a chance still for us....this could be epic!
bed_head7....UP NOW
Sir Bugsy...ON DECK
Microbe
el_filet
Nad
Little pointer: don't keep artillery units in flip-risk cities, especially when railed...they don't help with reducing flip-risk and will be lost if the city does flip...keep them safe in the core.
Examine our empire. We're in for an uphill struggle and it looks like a peaceful victory is our only chance. We must keep Russia sweet in particular, they could wipe us out at a moment's notice if they felt so inclined. Change military builds to infra, especially commerce-producng buildings...we need cash, more cash, and cash on top of that. NIx research, we can't wait 45 turns for atomic theory. Fiddle with mm, wake up the workers, our tiles are far from optimized.
Could I iterate the point Microbe made earlier? Please keep an eye on per-turn deals. Right now we have a Sumeria lux deal that can be renegotiated and is massively in their favour as it stands...how long has this been the case? I hope we have not been missing out on the benefits of renegotiating for too long. As it is, the difference from renegotiation is MASSIVE. The deal was dyes + ivory for furs + spices. It is now dyes + ivory for furs, spices, wines, 1073g + 16gpt. Sheesh.
What is worse is that our rep is almost certainly about to be trashed. Byzantium is down to 2 cities yet we are supplying them horses for 10 more turns. I don't know the circumstances in which that deal was made, but I did warn specifically about the dangers of trading resources to a dying civ earlier in the game...was our need for this deal so desperate? The only means I can see of saving our rep is trying a tech steal from Byzantium and hoping for war. In fact after the deal with Sumeria I can do this now. But since Byzantium has some decent tech I go for a careful steal rather than immediate (2092g) - it succeeds, and we have refining, but no oil. Boo.
I demand espionage from Byzantium...they refuse. Oh well, worth a try
Early: make a deal with Portugal to keep them in the tech picture...they are our best hope of 2fers. We give a number of tech and pick up saltpeter, communism, democracy and a bit of gold.
Byzantium and Mongols make peace in 1260. Byzantium is reduced to 1 city in 1270.
Sell dyes to Russia for 875g.
Middle: I have a real dilemma regarding the Byzantines. We have 6 turns on the horses deal...can they possibly survive that long? I doubt it. They have no tech worth stealing, and I am concerned that even if we were to be caught they would not declare war, and I do not wish to waste precious gold for that scenario. i decide to gamble and hold...if Byzantium comes up with a decent tech I will go for a steal, but I'll keep an eye on Caesarea for any tell tale signs of collapse.
In 1280AD I cannot bear the strain and decide to spend gold to examine Caesarea (187g) - it is defended by only 2 guerillas and 3 rifles (1 conscript, 2 elite) - they are all uninjured, which would suggest that there is no immediate attacker, but the elite rifles would contrarily suggest that there was ongoing fighting. Great help
I decide to delay again.Russia demands and receives 100g.
Late: OMFG IS THAT HOW FAR BEHIND WE ARE???!!!
Russia goes modern and starts the UN
Sumeria is also modern. We are 7 essential (and ridiculously expensive) techs away, and they are both scientific, which means that 2 modern age techs might already be discovered. I'd say our chances of a diplomatic victory are somewhere between zilch and diddly squit. I'd say our chances of a space victory are diddly squit more than zilch We have to do something now or this game is over. As the host I'm going to take the initiative right now, in what I think is our only chance: a superpower war. We could well end up squashed, but we might as well go in a blaze of glory.
Immediate tech steal from Sumeria...you know the result:
Sign Russia against Sumeria for 24gpt. Then sign free rop.
Sign Mongols against Sumeria, giving ivory and picking up incense, oil, wm + 19g.
Portugal has some gold so give them refining for free artistry, 101g + 13gpt. We do NOT want to sign in Portugal against Sumeria, because Sumeria will crush them without noticing and we will lose our best 2fer partner.
Buy silks from Russia for 28gpt.
Russia promptly completes Hoover Dam and Sumeria starts the UN...if that is a cascade then Sumeria will surely land it.
Portugal and Byzantium make peace, which could prove to be handy for us.
We reach 1300AD and incredibly Byzantium is still alive and our rep is saved!
Next player: don't want to put too much pressure on you but your turn will be critical!
We need to catch up in tech and we need to do it fast. I have spent sparingly and you have 2622g + 423gpt with 2 more stock exchanges due to complete very shortly. Stealing wll be the best resource, and that means Sumeria...in turn, that means we need to get ahold of espionage (which we can, cheaply), build the Agency, and plant a spy. Then steal judiciously. We have an interesting situation with Byzantium now, with 3 options:
1) We can keep them around as potential 2fer partners or a source to steal from (not worth it, IMO, since with only 1 city they won't be getting much tech...BUT, they are scientific and their free modern tech, if we get them there, could be crucial!)
2) We could sign an alliance with Russia against them, in the same deal including an expensive tech (atomic theory) for a massive gpt payment...we then hope Russia eliminates Byzantium quickly so we get out of the per-turn payment and pick up a tech very cheaply (if we do this, I wouldn't do it just yet, since any Russian landing near Caesarea will be swarmed upon by Sumeria...maybe hold this option seeing how things go).
3) Least likely but also potentially the most rewarding - we could declare war and try to take Caesarea ourselves (it has 2 wonders and coal) - but the problem is that we would be facing Sumeria
Good luck, do your best, and have fun! It's a crazy situation we're in but I just have a feeling that there might be a sniff of a chance still for us....this could be epic!
bed_head7....UP NOW
Sir Bugsy...ON DECK
Microbe
el_filet
Nad
microbe
Cascaded Mansion
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 4,596
I made the Sumerian lux deal at the beginning of my turns so we didn't lose a turn on it.
Have we lost our saltpeter? We used to have 2 and were selling Mongols one. But with all those flips I don't know now. BTW I hope we have renegotiated the saltpeter deal with Mongols too.
We were selling resources to Byzantines? I made it very clear that we should avoid that and try to MA against it when it goes down to only one city. Sigh..
I guess Sumeria isn't at war with Byzantine now, so it's hard to know when it will go down. Since we are at war with Sumeria, maybe we should just try to keep stealing?
Have we lost our saltpeter? We used to have 2 and were selling Mongols one. But with all those flips I don't know now. BTW I hope we have renegotiated the saltpeter deal with Mongols too.
We were selling resources to Byzantines? I made it very clear that we should avoid that and try to MA against it when it goes down to only one city. Sigh..
I guess Sumeria isn't at war with Byzantine now, so it's hard to know when it will go down. Since we are at war with Sumeria, maybe we should just try to keep stealing?
Nad
Known Troublemaker
Virconium had a saltpeter, iron and coal...that flip was nasty. The Mongol deal has ended, so we now have a native source and the import from Portugal.
It is good to know there were no turns wasted on the Sumerian lux deal, that was a concern to me. Bu reading the turn longs I'm disappointed to see we sold horses for just 110g...we came within a hair's breath of blowing our rep for a piddling amount. We have survived though, thanks to luck more than judgement, so let's put it behind us and look forward.
Byzantium is at war with Russia only at the moment, and as I say, should be safe for a short while, since Sumeria will pounce on any Russian landing But if the Mongols were to sign them in against Sumeria there would be trouble Ideally we would like Sumeria (and possibly Portugl) to side with Sumeria against Mongols and Russia...but we do not want to go to war against them since we want to trade.
I think we need to keep Mongols + Russia at war with Sumeria for a good period of time...as the isolated superpower Sumeria will suffer more...but then Russia will become the major threat, so eventually we'll want to switch and have Mongols and Sumeria fight Russia...but since we NEVER want to fight Russia, the way we'll have to do that is to engineer a war against the Mongols and sign Russia on our side (but hope the Mongols/Sumeria get the upperhand but not so much as to hurt us...but this does mean that we will shortly have to build more military ourselves).
Just in case it needs pointing out: please do not sign mpps with anyone under any circumstance! It has to be alliances all the way so we can manipulate but stay in control...with mpps we would lose that.
It is good to know there were no turns wasted on the Sumerian lux deal, that was a concern to me. Bu reading the turn longs I'm disappointed to see we sold horses for just 110g...we came within a hair's breath of blowing our rep for a piddling amount. We have survived though, thanks to luck more than judgement, so let's put it behind us and look forward
.Byzantium is at war with Russia only at the moment, and as I say, should be safe for a short while, since Sumeria will pounce on any Russian landing But if the Mongols were to sign them in against Sumeria there would be trouble Ideally we would like Sumeria (and possibly Portugl) to side with Sumeria against Mongols and Russia...but we do not want to go to war against them since we want to trade.
I think we need to keep Mongols + Russia at war with Sumeria for a good period of time...as the isolated superpower Sumeria will suffer more...but then Russia will become the major threat, so eventually we'll want to switch and have Mongols and Sumeria fight Russia...but since we NEVER want to fight Russia, the way we'll have to do that is to engineer a war against the Mongols and sign Russia on our side (but hope the Mongols/Sumeria get the upperhand but not so much as to hurt us...but this does mean that we will shortly have to build more military ourselves).
Just in case it needs pointing out: please do not sign mpps with anyone under any circumstance! It has to be alliances all the way so we can manipulate but stay in control...with mpps we would lose that.
el_filet
Prince
byz also had another city in the N, it seemed unlikely the port take both their cities (do they still got it?). the mongol/russian alliance made it a risky move, but that was after the deal... needed the money for the useless factory rush in viroconium 
was looking forward to take our cities back from the russians (esp. viroconium), but there was no real chance during the whole game.
i wrote a note concerning the expiring deals in my log, but it was i while ago...
was looking forward to take our cities back from the russians (esp. viroconium), but there was no real chance during the whole game.
i wrote a note concerning the expiring deals in my log, but it was i while ago...
Nad
Known Troublemaker
el_filet: I noticed the note you added in your edit about the deal ready for renegotiation in my second read-through, so it's definitely good we didn;t waste anything there 
The Virconium factory was certainly not useless at the time, but it was a bad move to raise 110g by risking our rep. Byzantium is down to 1 city, their 2nd city was razed on my turn 4.
The Virconium factory was certainly not useless at the time, but it was a bad move to raise 110g by risking our rep. Byzantium is down to 1 city, their 2nd city was razed on my turn 4.
1300 AD (0) - Russia gives us the best price, 1550g, for Espionage. Switch Pompeii to IA, which is due in 8. Join a worker and it drops to 7, though it is starving. Join a couple more workers to bring up gpt, through both working more tiles and decreasing unit support.
Somewhere in the middle, Catherine's attempt to plant a spy fails, and we are able to begin Wall Street. Soon after, we get the Intelligence Agency. Plant spy in Ur. Success! Now, for 3372g steal tech. Success again! We take Atomic Theory. The Byzantines are uninterested though, so they are probably close to getting it, so I probably should have taken Steel. Then Portugal signs in against the Russians. I still sell Portugal Atomic Theory for a very low price, despite their alliance with our enemy against our friend. Then the Mongols ally with Russia against the Portuguese.
Well, my turns were as boring as Nad's were exciting. I more or less hit spacebar with the occasional pollution cleanup.
SAVE
Somewhere in the middle, Catherine's attempt to plant a spy fails, and we are able to begin Wall Street. Soon after, we get the Intelligence Agency. Plant spy in Ur. Success! Now, for 3372g steal tech. Success again! We take Atomic Theory. The Byzantines are uninterested though, so they are probably close to getting it, so I probably should have taken Steel. Then Portugal signs in against the Russians. I still sell Portugal Atomic Theory for a very low price, despite their alliance with our enemy against our friend. Then the Mongols ally with Russia against the Portuguese.
Well, my turns were as boring as Nad's were exciting. I more or less hit spacebar with the occasional pollution cleanup.
SAVE
