Random Rants #63: These Rants Don't Run

[Commodore]

This is a response to warpus's post in the Prince thread. It gets a bit ranty, so I felt this would be a more appropriate place for it.

1. A lot of people do not support that war to begin with

2. Soldiers die, it's a part of their profession, it happens on a regular basis. Prince only dies once.

3. People DO respect dead soldiers, the last time Canadians were killed in combat a lot of people came out to respect them and their families.

4. Artists and musicians help us learn more about ourselves, we develop bonds with them even though we will never meet most or any of them in real life

5. Nobody knows who Sargeant J. Simpson is, but everyone knows who Prince is

6. Nobody's losing their minds, people are just honouring a memorable artist who inspired many

1. Support the war or not, those men and women are still the protectors of your nation. They still volunteered to defend you and your family so you don't have to worry about doing it yourself.

2. Soldiers die only once too.

3. I've said this before, but when people come out to respect soldiers, they only do it because they feel an obligation to. Basically, they do it because they feel they have to. With celebrities though, people express genuine anguish like they knew the person personally, or they mourn them as if they were some great national hero.

4. I just don't buy that whole forming bonds with people you've never met. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just think those that form these bonds with celebrities have what I would call an unhealthy grasp on reality.

5. That is part of the problem.

6. People are losing their minds. Whenever they show these gatherings of people mourning him, I'm seeing all these people wailing and crying like their kids just got murdered in front of them. Now, maybe people are just hamming it up for the cameras, but it's still ridiculous. With the way people are acting over this, you'd think Obama just got assassinated or something.

I just want to make it clear though, that I'm not saying anything against Prince himself, I'm just saying society has it's priorities all out of whack. It's also moments like this that remind me what they told us in the Army was true. They told us the day would come when we couldn't serve anymore and we'd have to go back into the civilian world. They told us that when that day comes to stick close to those we served with and help each other out as much as we can. They told us civilians don't care about us and they don't care about everything we do for them. I thought it was just a bunch of crap at the time, a scare tactic to convince people to reenlist; but the longer I'm out of the military, the more I realize everything they told us about the civilian world is true.

 

[warpus]

I disagree that society has its priorities out of whack.

Is it really that surprising that people relate to musicians who's music they enjoy and listen to all the time? Is it really that surprising that people will form an emotional bond with the music and to a degree with the musician or artist?

Is it then really that surprising that when a person like that dies, people react emotionally?

Is it really that surprising that this level of emotional response is absent when someone dies who is a faceless soldier, who took on the risk and a dangerous job during which death is not so uncommon?

Dude, if Prince stopped writing music 10 years ago and signed up and become a soldier, and was killed in the line of duty, you would see the same kind of reaction as the one you see when he died yesterday, as a musician.

People are responding because they know who he is! They know his personality, his music, the way he speaks, the way he thinks, etc. That's all it is. If people had such a connection to every single soldier who goes out into battle, you would see that exact same response.

 

[Borachio]

I think you both have good points.

Soldiers do die and nearly everyone takes it for granted (whether or not they support the conflict). Celebrities also die and people make a big thing about it. In the case of Prince and Bowie, maybe the world is a poorer place without them, but a lot of celebrities don't deserve the adulation, imo.

I remember when Princess Diana died and everyone made such a tremendous fuss I was very nearly physically sick with disgust.

I'm dreading the Queen of England dying. We'll be wading knee-deep in tears.

#imarepublican

 

[JohannaK]

People are responding because they know who he is! They know his personality, his music, the way he speaks, the way he thinks, etc. That's all it is. If people had such a connection to every single soldier who goes out into battle, you would see that exact same response.

Actually I think there'd be either no wars or no humans left if that happened. Too much emotion on every side for anyone to remain sane.

 

[Borachio]

You say that like it'd be a bad thing?

 

[gay_Aleks]

I was just writing that.

 

[Borachio]

"Great minds think alike."

 

[warpus]

Celebrities also die and people make a big thing about it.

Celebrity worship is something I hate very much, so I can understand this.

In the end these are two completely different situations:

A) Someone who you do not know at all signed up for a dangerous job, during which many people die. This person dies.

B) Someone who writes music you listen to every day, who's personality you know and understand and can relate to, dies, in a line of work that is not dangerous.

Of course B) is going to evoke a much stronger emotional response than A)!

 

[Commodore]

People are responding because they know who he is! They know his personality, his music, the way he speaks, the way he thinks, etc. That's all it is. If people had such a connection to every single soldier who goes out into battle, you would see that exact same response.

See, this is where the "they have an unhealthy grasp on reality" part of my post comes in. People think they know the entertainer when all they really know is face they decided to show the public. In other words, his fans really don't know anything about him beyond the character he constructed around himself for his entertainment career. Every celebrity does this, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I would say that's almost a necessity for any celebrity.

What is wrong though, is when people think the person they see on stage is the real version of that person, rather than a character that person is playing to entertain their fans.

And, as you stated, people just expect soldiers to die. That's reasonable, as it is part of the job, but I don't think people truly appreciate exactly what it is soldiers do for them just by merely existing. Maybe it's because the military (at least in most Western nations) has done such a good job of protecting their people that the people simply can't comprehend exactly what horrible things the military keeps from getting to them. I don't know. Sometimes I think we should let some foreign army land on our shores and rampage around the country for a few months before fighting back, just to remind the people of what it is the military does and how much the military does to protect their families and livelihoods. I mean, would any of these celebrities that people worship be able to even do what they do or "inspire people" with their art if they didn't live in a nation that has thousands of men and women willing to stand in between them and those who would like to do them harm?

 

[warpus]

It might be frustrating as a soldier to see such reactions, but people make genuine emotional connections with music and with musicians, even if a lot of those musicians put on an act/a mask when they're performing.

Even if I don't really think I know an author well at all, I will still react emotionally if someone who's works I read on a regular basis passes away. When Iain M. Banks passed away, it affected me emotionally, because I had a strong connection to his work, and because the author was directly responsible for affecting me as a person - his writings and his ideas changed me as a person. There was an emotional connection to the author and his work there, whether I really knew who the author really was or not, and when he passed, I was sad as a result, and I wanted to mourn his death.

On the other hand, when caskets with dead Canadian bodies return from Afghanistan, I take a minute to pay my respects, but there is no emotional connection there, so the effect on me is completely different. I expect soldiers to die, that danger is a part of what they signed up for, so a soldier dying is nothing out of the ordinary, from my point of view. But an artist dying is an unexpected event and not a part of the job description.

I don't think people truly appreciate exactly what it is soldiers do for them just by merely existing.

I see this as a separate issue. The main reason the average person's reaction to the death of {famous rockstar} to the death of {random soldier} are different is all the stuff I've outlined - they have an emotional connection to the rock star but none at all with the soldier. That people generally don't appreciate soldiers enough (not saying that they do or don't, but for the sake of arguing let's assume they don't) is irrelevant, IMO, what we're seeing here is just a classic human response - if you lose something you have an emotional connection to, this will affect you a lot more than someone dying who you have no connection to at all.

Like I said, as a soldier, that might be a bit depressing, but why did you sign up to be a soldier? For people to worship you and to cry when you die? I'm not saying that's the case at all, but if that is the case for any soldier, then they have signed up to become a soldier for the wrong reason, IMO.

 

[Commodore]

Like I said, as a soldier, that might be a bit depressing, but why did you sign up to be a soldier? For people to worship you and to cry when you die? I'm not saying that's the case at all, but if that is the case for any soldier, then they have signed up to become a soldier for the wrong reason, IMO.

We sign up because we love our country. Even someone who claims they did it for college money still does it out of some basic love for their country since I doubt someone is going to risk death just for some college money unless there are some other underlying reasons as well. It seems a lot of the time though, that our country doesn't love us back, at least not as much is we love it. That hurts.

As to your point about death not being part of the job description for a musician: It's not like he died because of music. He just died, as humans are wont to do from time to time. I also read something that suggested his death was possibly drug-related. If that's the case, then his death was the result of his lifestyle, not his job. To me, that kind of makes his death less unexpected, at least to those who knew he possibly had a drug problem.

 

[Hygro]

See, this is where the "they have an unhealthy grasp on reality" part of my post comes in. People think they know the entertainer when all they really know is face they decided to show the public. In other words, his fans really don't know anything about him beyond the character he constructed around himself for his entertainment career. Every celebrity does this, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I would say that's almost a necessity for any celebrity.

You are what you do. To get that famous you have to pour yourself into your work. Competition is fierce at the top, and to be the best and win, you have to pour almost all of yourself into you work. Fans connect to the work, and fans connect to the story of the person behind that work. You might only be getting one side of someone, but that side is the pinnacle of that person's achievement. In truth, you are knowing a most vulnerable part of them.

 

[warpus]

It seems a lot of the time though, that our country doesn't love us back, at least not as much is we love it. That hurts.

Maybe I'm a jerk for thinking this, but signing up was your own personal choice. You did it out of your love for your country, and that's commendable, but expecting the average citizen to love you back is a bit much, IMO. If you are doing this purely out of your love for your country then you wouldn't care what the average person thinks, IMO. If you were doing it in some way to get recognition for your sacrifice, then that's different (and misguided, again IMO)

As to your point about death not being part of the job description for a musician: It's not like he died because of music. He just died, as humans are wont to do from time to time. I also read something that suggested his death was possibly drug-related. If that's the case, then his death was the result of his lifestyle, not his job. To me, that kind of makes his death less unexpected, at least to those who knew he possibly had a drug problem.

The distinction I was making was..

Say I get a job as an architect. Putting your life on the line is not a part of the job description, so if I died as a relatively young architect, that's unexpected.

But if I get a job during which I put my life on the line on a regular basis, my death would be tragic no doubt, but not so unexpected as that of an architect.

 

[Hygro]

I was thinking about the "an act" thing some more. I love my cousins. I know my cousins and I love them. But when I see them it is nearly 100% in the context of family meeting family. They have their "I'm with extended family" mask on. I don't know them beyond what they've shown me. And yet, I love them and will mourn them should topple over before I do.

Maybe I'm a jerk for thinking this, but signing up was your own personal choice. You did it out of your love for your country, and that's commendable, but expecting the average citizen to love you back is a bit much, IMO. If you are doing this purely out of your love for your country then you wouldn't care what the average person thinks, IMO. If you were doing it in some way to get recognition for your sacrifice, then that's different (and misguided, again IMO)

Every now and then I really think about it. And every time I am really struck by the bravery of soldering, and appreciate those who join ranks. I also agree that if you do something for yourself and for others, others don't owe you what it is you think you deserve for doing it. I'm not owed book sales if I write a novel, I'm not owed a girlfriend because I'm nice, rich, muscled, or whatever. It's always a choice to do things for other people, and it's not up to you to decide how they should feel about your actions.

 

[Synobun]

Important to remember that not everyone who creates art is remembered fondly after death. It's specifically about influence over numbers. If you create music but nobody listens to it, no one except those closest to you will care when you pass. The same is true of soldiers or any other occupation/lifestyle. You're mourned over influence, not over subject matter.

 

[Commodore]

Maybe I'm a jerk for thinking this, but signing up was your own personal choice. You did it out of your love for your country, and that's commendable, but expecting the average citizen to love you back is a bit much, IMO. If you are doing this purely out of your love for your country then you wouldn't care what the average person thinks, IMO. If you were doing it in some way to get recognition for your sacrifice, then that's different (and misguided, again IMO)

That's not necessarily true. You have a significant other right (can't remember if you said she's your girlfriend or wife)? You love her, right? How would it make you feel if she said or did anything to make you seriously feel like she didn't love you back? Wouldn't feel too good would it? Well, that's how I feel sometimes. So yeah, sometimes you do care about what the people you love think of you.

 

[Hygro]

That's not necessarily true. You have a significant other right (can't remember if you said she's your girlfriend or wife)? You love her, right? How would it make you feel if she said or did anything to make you seriously feel like she didn't love you back? Wouldn't feel too good would it? Well, that's how I feel sometimes. So yeah, sometimes you do care about what the people you love think of you.

Yeah but if you love some girl you think should be your SO and she's pretty indifferent....

 

[Synobun]

Yeah but if you love some girl you think should be your SO and she's pretty indifferent....

And in one swift stroke, Hygro crushes the spirits of countless CFC lonely bachelors...

 

[Commodore]

Yeah but if you love some girl you think should be your SO and she's pretty indifferent....

Doesn't usually change how you feel about her though. That's why no matter what, I will always love the US, no matter how pissed off I might get at it sometimes.

 

[warpus]

@Commodore

I do not have a wife or girlfriend at the moment, but let's assume that I have a SO. In that case we are talking about a partnership - a two-way relationship - two people who like/love each other enough to want to spend potentially the rest of their lives together. It isn't only the case of ME making a decision that I want to be with this person, but it is also HER making the exact same decision back. It's mutual.

In the case of somebody joining the military due to their love for their country, that is not a two-way relationship. It is the case of a person professing their love for something and acting on it, but there is no such love coming back from the other side.

That's the difference I see in the example you gave - if my hypothetical SO suddenly said she did not love me anymore, that would hurt a lot, since it would change the status quo - from love to a lack of love. On the other hand, a soldier not getting any love from civilians does not change the status quo, since there was no relationship there to begin with.

Mind you I can completely understand what you are saying. I would feel an emotional response too, if I served my country and didn't feel that anybody acknowledged or respected my contribution. That's just a natural human response, I think, it applies to a wide range of situations and not only the one we are discussing. So I hear what you're saying, even if I disagree that the example you give is a good one.