Random thoughts about Europe and the World at large.

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by anarres
Sure Mr P,

Europe is less democratic, that's why GWB is running the show when he got less votes then the democrat.

Agreed.

 

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by MrPresident
How many Europeans voted for their MEPs?

How many Americans vote for the Supreme Court.

 

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by MrPresident
Are you seriously telling me more Frenchmen (and women) wanted Chirac as their President than Americans wanted Bush as theirs?

No, because America has a higher population. :jump:

 

[MrPresident]

Yeah, the Supreme Court is the same as the European Parliament.

archer_007 you used three posts when you could have used one and none of them was worth the bother.

 

[Yago]

80% of the French people wanted someone else to win the first ballot of the French Presidental election and the French feel they are able to criticise Bush for not winning a majority. As I have said before and I will say again, we Europeans have no right to laugh at the democratic strangeness of other countries.

Hm, I am not French. But are you aware of the fact, that there are countries which do not have a narrow two-party system ?

As far as I know, Bush lost Florida, therefore the electoral votes of Florida weren't for him, but for Gore. But I of course be mistaken, a.k.a not on the path of the GOP.

Lol. Food with manipulated genes. The Americans using the backdoor Africa. That's smart, because most Euorpeans won't notice.

 

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by Kinniken


The Economist's (VERY free-market magazine) view on Kyoto is that Bush was right in critisizing Kyoto as being needlessly expensive. However they add quite rightly that what Bush should have done is to propose an other treaty making better economic sense, and push his weight behind it.
Needless to say that he did not.

Agreed.

 

[Yago]

But whatever. I see, it's hard to imagine a system which not only has only two parties and not shameless gerrymandering.

 

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by Toasty
I suppose I'm just about the only American who thinks the United States is inferior to Europe in most ways that matter on a day-to-day basis, then?

Nope, your not alone. I would make sense they have more room to be better, they are much older.

 

[MrPresident]

Yago, Bush won Florida. Whether he got more votes than Gore in that state is up for debate but he won by the law of the land. And I why don't people understand that in the American Presidental election it doesn't matter who wins the popular vote. Just like in Britain it doesn't matter which party wins the most votes, it matters which party wins the most seats. In France doesn't matter how many votes you get in the first round as long as you get to the second round. The American Presidental election was won by Bush according to the rules that govern it. If you think the rules are wrong then so be it but both Gore and Bush knew them before they started campaigning and neither complained.

 

[Yago]

Yeah, the Supreme Court is the same as the European Parliament

Ahm, you might not be aware of that. But Europe is a continent with a lot of different, sovereign countries. Some of them are loosely connected in a organisation called EU. EU, that is not a state, but a multinational organisation. And the degree, to which the nations are connected with this organisation differs.

And Europe does not only consist out of France and the UK. Luxembourg is a country too.

 

[Yago]

Yago, Bush won Florida

Well, I thought you'd disagree.

Yes, I am aware of the fact, that the USA is a confederation of states. If Bush had the biggest part of the states, than he has won (But I still think, that Gore had more votes in Florida, which would have changed the state outcome, but I see, you say, the court decisions decided that defintley, ok.)

Most Europeans live in Republics or constitutional monarchies, not in confederations. The problem here is, you don't have to talk about democracy, but about the difference between a republic or a constitutional monarchy and a confederation.

Or do you know of any European state, which is a confederation ?

 

[luiz]

Originally posted by CurtSibling

We have more culture, history and sophistication that most nations.

Sure you guys in Europe are more civilised then the rest of the planet. After all, you pretty much destroyed all other civilizations around the world, didnt you?
Its pretty easy to be rich enslaving africans, selling opium to the chinese and stealing their citys, killing the native americans and taking their gold, destroying the indian civilization and exploring their people, colonizing the ME and Southeastern Asia and subjugating their people.

Im not saying that the today europeans are to blame for the huge crimes of Europes past, but please dont consider yoursel 'more civilised and sophisticated' than most nations. It sounds nazi-like.

 

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by MrPresident
Yeah, the Supreme Court is the same as the European Parliament.

archer_007 you used three posts when you could have used one and none of them was worth the bother.

One, It was an example.
Two, i respond as i read, so thats why i dont post it all together. This is because i can't remember well.
Three, who are you to judge my post? Dude, i dont criticism you.

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by Yago
But I still think, that Gore had more votes in Florida, which would have changed the state outcome, but I see, you say, the court decisions decided that defintley, ok.

You counted them?

Cause the people who did count them aren't that sure. It really depends on what balloting issues constitute a vote. Something bureaucrats have decided to no interest of the public at large until they thought it could convenience them. Or when the Republicans became the party that opposes hanging chads!

Originally posted by luiz
Sure you guys in Europe are more civilised then the rest of the planet. After all, you pretty much destroyed all other civilizations around the world, didnt you?

Heresy! Heresy!

 

[Cilpot]

Originally posted by luiz
Sure you guys in Europe are more civilised then the rest of the planet. After all, you pretty much destroyed all other civilizations around the world, didnt you?
Its pretty easy to be rich enslaving africans, selling opium to the chinese and stealing their citys, killing the native americans and taking their gold, destroying the indian civilization and exploring their people, colonizing the ME and Southeastern Asia and subjugating their people.

Excellent point. Europeans tend to forget this, and forget that it was the european settlers that started (e.g.) the indian and aborigian genocide. Later on these settlers became USA, Brazil, Australia and so on...

 

[Drewcifer]

Originally posted by CurtSibling


Believe me, we Europeans don't see ourselves as inferior.
Quite the opposite, actually. We made your country, don't forget that.

Civilisation began in Europe.
We have more culture, history and sophistication that most nations.

Congrats on a well constructed counter-troll.

Curt, I suspect you were joking but if not I really must take issue with this comment. If anything there may be a bit of a superiority complex on both sides of the Atlantic. If John Wayne USA were European he could easily have posted your comments.

My English Puritan ancestors have been living in North America since the 1630s. I suspect that they had something to do with building this country as well. They haven't been European (or Puritan) for a long time. Many of my neighbors have had family in the "New World" for tens of thousands of years, others have no ties to Europe. There has got to be some sort of statute of limitations on this kind of condescending paternalism that some people like to spout off about the US (and other nations). The Egyptians could be saying this to all of us.

 

[Kinniken]

Originally posted by MrPresident
Boredom has nothing to do with it. People don't vote for MEPs because they feel there is no point. There is no point because the European Union is inherently undemocratic.

The European Union is NOT "inherently undemocratic" Decisions are either taken by the perfectly democratic EP (a little bit), or by the representatives of democratic governements. The only thing that keeps it from having more direct democracy is nationalists who fear the increased legitimacy that would give to European institutions.
On the countrary, the EU one of the biggest proponent of democraty is Europe... Just look at the job done in Spain, Portugal, and now Eastern Europe and Turkey.
But then, I suppose it's no use We both have quite marked opinions on the subject, and I guess the chance of one of us changing his mind is about as great as in one of those infamous "Evolution vs Creation" threads

And I find it ridiculous that Europeans feel the democratic superiority to make fun of the American Presidental election. I say we look at ourselves before laughing at others.

I agree with you in general there... In a whole range of issues, Europeans are quick to blame the US while forgeting to look at themselves as well. However, I feel that democraty is NOT one of them.

 

[allhailIndia]

Here's a third person (or country) perspective on this issue.

For one thing, I agree with most of what Polymath said incl the part about Bush being in cahoots with Big business.

However, Bush's persona cannot be compared to Clinton's who was as much style as substance. E.G. when he came over to India, there was not much strategic or political interest in his visit, but ALL newspapers carried it on their front pages and followed every inch of his journey around the country.
Yet, when Putin came to India it was a very low key affair and very few people knew he was even here, THOUGH his visit marked a further strengthening of the Indo-Russia partnership.

I think most Europeans see Bush as a typical cowboy; a lot of commentators compare Europe's anatagonism to Mr. Bush to being similar in vein to their dislike of Lyndon B Johnson, another Texas "cowboy". I think it has to do with the fact that Bush seems to be ignoring and belittleing them more often than not and this is p/o them no end.

 

[PantheraTigris2]

Originally posted by CurtSibling
We made your country, don't forget that.

Like hell you did. Just as much as the ancient Neanderthals built the Channel Tunnel / Chunnel thingy.

Who is "We" anyway? I really don't care who envies who, or whatever. This entire 'sizing up' the 'opposition' on the other side of the Atlantic debate is childish. When I take a trip to Europe, I had better not see a bunch of snobs like this, otherwise I'll know exactly why my ancestors left from there a few generations ago.
This behavior, of looking at the other side, pointing the finger, laughing, giggling, and saying, "Naah-Naah, we're better than you!" - is so babyish I can't stand it. Surely there is somthing more constructive to do.

 

[Pillager]

My random, yet entirely predictable , thought for this thread:

Continental Europeans can start slagging off the US elections when they cease electing criminals as their own Presidents. Bush's election problems pale into insignificance when put alongside the corrupt and rotten political system at the heart of France, Italy, the European Union, Germany et al.