Random thoughts about Europe and the World at large.

onejayhawk

Afflicted with reason
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On CNN today one of the guest experts opined that the reaction that many Europeans have to President Bush stems not so much from their dislike for his Texas accented style, but from their own perception of inferiority. The argument wen like this.

Were Europe to have a united voice in world affairs, then the influence Europe could exert would be much greater, and in line with the place that Europe has held since early colonial times. It rankles that someone, lacking the polish and style which they admire, is able to do things without their active participation, much less over their active objection.

Under this theory, even Colin Powell, who seems to have much greater acceptance in personally, would not be a major change, since the ability of the US to project its will would be unchanged.

I have never lived abroad, so My perspective is quite short. I understand Tex-speak as well as almost any, but the sentiment in Paris or Baris is another matter.

J
 
The opinion of that guest 'expert' seems to me to be very naive.
 
They loved Clinton over there.

I think the difference is they got the impression he actually cared what they thought, which made them feel relevant. Anyone marginalized is likely to be upset. Remember the reason they found W. so scary was because he seemed so indifferent on international affairs.
 
Originally posted by Greadius
They loved Clinton over there.

I think the difference is they got the impression he actually cared what they thought, which made them feel relevant. Anyone marginalized is likely to be upset. Remember the reason they found W. so scary was because he seemed so indifferent on international affairs.
That paraphrases to argument rather well. Clinton gave the impression of listening, while not hearing anything but his own voice. Bush gives the reality of offering a role, but without the sympathetic ear. Its not the first time anyone called Clinton style over substance and Bush the reverse.

J
 
I didn't say that. I think any substance Bush manifests is a result of his handlers using the media properly.

And Clinton was a heck of a lot more substance, but understood if he can't sell it its useless.
 
You are dreaming, Mr Hawk.

Believe me, we Europeans don't see ourselves as inferior.
Quite the opposite, actually. We made your country, don't forget that. :D

Civilisation began in Europe. :)
We have more culture, history and sophistication that most nations.

So do me a favour, Hawkman.
Stop trying to get your 'stealth' anti-Euro trolls attacks going.

It won't work.

And for your reference, most Europeans (including Brits) see Bush as a comedy figure, rather than a respected leader.
We don't fear the USA's weapons (mighty as they are) because you'll never use them on we Europeans anyway!

We snort with derision at your leader, at our own too. So live with it!

Don't tell me you Americans are too afraid to have a joke about Mr Bush? ;)
 
Originally posted by onejayhawk
On CNN today one of the guest experts opined that the reaction that many Europeans have to President Bush stems not so much from their dislike for his Texas accented style, but from their own perception of inferiority. The argument wen like this.

Were Europe to have a united voice in world affairs, then the influence Europe could exert would be much greater, and in line with the place that Europe has held since early colonial times. It rankles that someone, lacking the polish and style which they admire, is able to do things without their active participation, much less over their active objection.

Under this theory, even Colin Powell, who seems to have much greater acceptance in personally, would not be a major change, since the ability of the US to project its will would be unchanged.

I have never lived abroad, so My perspective is quite short. I understand Tex-speak as well as almost any, but the sentiment in Paris or Baris is another matter.

J

So many "explanations" and accusations recently...

Is it really impossible for most of the Americans to understand that there
might be people "out there" that simply don't like wars ?

What is sort of a given over here seems to just be beyond your perception....

At least you should try to consider that outside your borders there actually are places where "not wanting to kill people" is a widely accepted principle.... at least try!
 
Now that's a good strategy: If you can't find arguments, just assume your opposite has some psychological problems, which cause the different opinion.

What's next? Different genes?

If you don't want to hear a different opinion, just say so, don't make up some strange excuses, why someone might not agree with you. Things like those might be exactly the problem.

And believe me, the part of your country where Bush comes from, nor what he looks like, nor what he does in his free time, is a basis for an opinion on his foreign policy. The different opinion is there, because there are no patriotism-nazis in Europe, shutting everyone up who says something not according to his countries policies. And, as I see it, fortunately there are not enough patriotism-nazis in the US either, who try to shut everyone up, who has a different opinion, but they are there. Just look at the "revoke MM's Oscar"-thread.
 
In the wake of the collapse of the 'Arab Enemy', it seems our noble cousins in the USA are looking for a new enemy to focus on.

Looks like we evil Europeans are in the gunsights...:p
 
Well the dislike of Bush is certainly nothing to do with inferiority...I think we can safely scotch that canard along with the one that goes 'they're just jealous'. It's the kind of thing someone says when they don't want to address the real issues. For these people, a glib dismissal is far more preferable than self-examination. So let's consign that view to the waste paper basket. There are plenty of our US friends who are more than ready to discuss the real issues anyway.

Nope, there are lots of 'real' reasons for the view 'against' Bush (by which I mean viewpoints that Eropeans actually hold, rather than viewpoints imagined by professional 'expert' rent-a-quote hucksters). I personally don't hold any of these reasons that close to my heart, I'm just passing on 'the word on the street'.

First on the list is Bush's grasp of global politics, as exemplified by 'you're either for us or against us'. Now, regardless of how US citizens might see it, many see this as an incredibly stupid thing to say. Really bloody stupid, in fact. And when they are the words of the world's most powerful man, well.....he made a lot of nations think of him as a playground bully and he has only himself to blame for taking that line. No wonder that a lot of nations simply thought 'f*** off'. It's a plain response to the man himself, along the lines of 'alright, if you want it that way, we're against you'. Like I say, a really bloody stupid thing to say.

Secondly, not fully signing up to the Kyoto thing left a bad feeling. When people were looking to the US to take a stand/lead the way to the future, and demonstrate to the world a set of good honest principles, Bush turned round and says 'I'm doing what's good for the US, not what's good for the world'. OK, that's up to him, but a lot of people took this as confirmation that Bush was in no way interested in the environment. This view was given a lot of early fuel by Bush's opening up of the ANWR for oil-drilling. The Kyoto thing underlined this view. This can't be undone, people who wish to protect the environment will not find anything good to say about him. He's lost that one, and again he has only himself to blame for the line he took.

Thirdly, the manner in which Bush won the election raised a lot of questions. This meant a lot of close examination in the media all over the world. Many, rightly or wrongly, reached the conclusion that there was something fishy going on, or at least were rather suspicious. Once someone reaches that viewpoint, they are going to doubt pretty much whatever Bush does. I'm afraid that situation cannot be helped...some people will always have the view that he tricked his way into power. That's just something he will have to live with. That is not his fault at all though, unless you believe he did trick his way into power.

That's just a few things. The other thing to remember is that by virtue of his position, and the position of the US, there are people who will always think he's a prat anyway, even if he were the best president ever.

My own views:

Bush is in bed with big business, as they bankrolled him to the presidency and he owes a lot of favours.
Bush is trying to get the rest of the world on his side, with some kicks in the shin from our Tony. I think he could have got UN backing for the Iraq thing, but for France and Russia. But there will always be those who are just plain against war, even if it is absolutely necessary. We had them in the UK when we were squaring up to Mr Hitler. Deal with it, don't just say 'oh they're jealous'.

Anyway, that's my view.
 
Lol, that's the same line like always:

American: European, you are inferior and you envy us!!!!

European: (Driving in his porsche, drinking french wine, has actually a market economy and democracy, where he decides, what his leaders do and don't let's them get away with nonsense, like "trust me".) No, I sure don't envy you.

American: You just bashed America. You said we are not the best in everything. That you don't feel inferior. And that you don't envy us. You are Anti-American, A liar and possibly a communist and democrat. You even favour free-speech, you commie!!!!!

European: Ahm

American: America-basher, America-basher, America-basher

European: :rotfl:

Ahm, to the actual topic: Alright, Europeans in general have no brains, a feeling of inferiority (and some of them don't even speak English and "texas-style" would say them the same like, "Japanese holiday traditions") and say dislike everything which America does out of principle, not because they have an opinion on their own, which would be impossible, becaue they have no brain.
 
Bush is seen as far-right in Europe. The leftists don't like that. They combine with those who generally dislike America for being powerful to create a large opposition to Bush in Europe. And Yago, Europe is less democratic and certainly less of a market economy than America.
 
Sure Mr P,

Europe is less democratic, that's why GWB is running the show when he got less votes then the democrat. :lol:
 
good post polymath.

Originally posted by MrPresident
And Yago, Europe is less democratic and certainly less of a market economy than America.

And everyone repeat that at least once:
"Europe is less democratic and certainly less of a market economy than America."

Yeah, right MrPrez. Your post just underlines what Yago said.
 
Originally posted by onejayhawk
That paraphrases to argument rather well. Clinton gave the impression of listening, while not hearing anything but his own voice. Bush gives the reality of offering a role, but without the sympathetic ear. Its not the first time anyone called Clinton style over substance and Bush the reverse.

J


Greadius can defend himself just fine, but I feel compelled to point out that your argument here assumes that Clinton offered less than he promised and that Bush offers what he promises or more.

You need to back up this statement with some kind of evidence. You can't build a case that the Europeans were incorrect in their perception w/out offering evidence that they were mistaken.

Your theory seems kind of insulting. It's built on the premise that Europeans feel inferior and that Europeans can't tell when someone is pulling a fast one on them.

Even if Europeans feel inferior, they would not necessarily automatically dislike the American President. It's hard to imagine that they feel more inferior now than they did four years ago, and Greadius is right -- by and large they were more favorable disposed to Clinton than to W Bush.

So it boils down to the acting President, not the Presidency.
 
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