Rant about US foreign policy

[Scuffer]

And Europeans don't know America well. 25% of Germans believe that the U.S. government was involved in 9/11.

It says here (http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc830.htm) that 80% of Americans think that the government is hiding knowledge of extraterrestials. Which proves nothing except that such polls are not to be trusted.

 

[amadeus]

Way to find a competely unrelated topic. Congratulations.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Actually Scuffer's point is rather relevant. You can make people say anything you want with that kind of polls. All depends on how you ask the question.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Actually Scuffer's point is rather relevant. You can make people say anything you want with that kind of polls. All depends on how you ask the question.

Belief in a government coverup of extraterrestrials is a sort of "common knowledge" here, so I don't doubt the 80% figure at all.

One could argue that belief in a 9/11 conspiracy is far more relevant to this thread and has far greater ramifications for international relations than a belief in aliens.

 

[kryszcztov]

Deception tool of the left number one. Everyone who likes Bush is a religious nutcase. Not true.

Sorry, but if you look at the other parts of my sentence, you'll see that I speak of different parts, so that was just a mistake, and at the end I said "if all those parts make one...", so you got the point.

What did you think about Kerry promising to bring God into the White House, speaking at churches? Didn't that worry you, or did you just choose to ignore that because you don't like Bush?

Another reason to despise the USA as a nation. But Kerry is less bad, and we won't have the "chance" to see him in action. I saw a doc about him as a senator, and he seemed quite wise, not that I'd vote for him of course. Bush cumulates all flaws.

And Europeans don't know America well. 25% of Germans believe that the U.S. government was involved in 9/11.

Link ? Ever spoke to Germans ? Ever spoke in German ? Ever been to Germany ? Europeans know the USA more than Americans know Europe, that's a fact, and it comes from your economical superiority. So don't deny it, it would hurt you.

Look at your location and reconsider your statement. You're in the belly of the beast: France has had a "we're better than all of you" attitude since de Gaulle.

I'm in the belly of the beast, right. Apart from that, any solid argument ? De Gaulle's firm position to make American soldiers leave French bases (if I'm not mistaken) and make France get the Bomb was surely wise. We didn't want to become an "Atlantic province", and we quite succeeded, and now we're leading the construction of Europe. We have NO debt towards you, regarding WWII, OK ? Just looking at things went in France, I wonder what would have happened if de Gaulle hadn't been there.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

I'm in the belly of the beast, right. Apart from that, any solid argument ?

This is actually one instance where rmsharpe is not insulting the French. "Belly of the beast" is an American expression that means "in the center of something" or "in the area of largest concentration". As a Frenchmen, you are in fact in the area with the largest concentration of Frenchmen.

But, of course, as a European, you already knew that...

 

[Arminius]

You see, SN, I'm starting to believe that you can find the best AND the worst in the USA today. I'm fond of some American music bands, I like many American movies, etc, etc, etc... but that's only a part of what America is.

You are correct, it is only part of the US. I have a secret, though; it is most of the US.

The part that is pro-Bush, that is pro-religion-everywhere,

The problem is some are just anti-Kerry. Who, by the way, was supported by some "religion everywhere" types.

the part that is gung-ho,

I don't understand this... You don't like the part that is hyped up to do something? I'm gung-ho for change, do you not like me because I'm enthusiastic? Do you mean you aren't ever excited about anything?

the part that doesn't know Europe well (and other places too, like Iraq),

Do you not apply that to Europe in not knowing America well (or Iraq for that matter)?

the part that only believes in America's superiority,

No argument here. I hate the people, not matter where they live, that think that they are better than everyone else. However, I must say that you will find that those people live everywhere. They are just more vocal in the US, because, well, people from the US tend to be more vocal.

well, if all those parts make one, I hate it. Do you get it ? And sometimes we unfortunately confuse a country with how it is represented (the administration, the State). And then we further confuse that with all the people who support that point of view, and the cultural environment from where it comes from.

But all those parts come together to make one nation, just like your France. You make have fewer of this bad, but more of that bad, but hell, aren't we all just equal? Or... I will gladly admit that the average American sees French people by what the French government says, it's wrong. Or, at least, I hope it is.

P.S. The Pumpkins rock. (or rocked...)

 

[andrewgprv]

I will admit that many times I can be too harsh of a critic on my own nation, goverenment and people. But I believe our nation is a great one and I have high expectations of my nation. When my nation is doing something I think is wrong I speak up. That's what our founding fathers wanted isn't it?

There are alot of people out there that make America out to be a selfish careless empire and to some extent that is true. But the same can be said for most nations. Most all americans want their goverenment to do what is right. Alot of americans sincerely believe invading Iraq was the right thing to do. I myself believe it was a mistake that we are paying for now. But I hope we can leave the nation better then we found it.

I think the biggest problem with America is that we have had it too good for too long. Life is easy here. And too many people can do well with little to no effort. I'm afraid I see much of america as spoiled. People do not pay much attention to politics or world affairs because they do not have to. Their lives will move on unaffected regardless. I fear america is riding on it's momentum. We've been doing so well so long, people can't think of it being any other way.

Part of the reason I like to be the voice of critisism in America is that the area I live in lacks an objective view of America. Most here believe that we are God's nation. That we can do no wrong. I seek to bring a different point of view. It might be a bit different if I lived somewhere like San Fransico.

 

[De Lorimier]

This is actually one instance where rmsharpe is not insulting the French. "Belly of the beast" is an American expression that means "in the center of something" or "in the area of largest concentration". As a Frenchmen, you are in fact in the area with the largest concentration of Frenchmen.

But, of course, as a European, you already knew that...

Sharpe is insulting the French (like always, he's one insulting fellow!) when he associates "better than all of you attitude" with France. He's an arsehole.
Moderator Action: Flaming - warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Sharpe is insulting the French (like always, he's one insulting fellow!) when he associates "better than all of you attitude" with France. He's an arsehole.

Hahahahahaha. How precious. As if no European posters here associate certain attitudes with the United States.

 

[De Lorimier]

Hahahahahaha. As if no European posters here associate certain attitudes with the United States.

Hahahaha?
Does it change the fact that you are wrong about Sharpe's statement?
No.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Hahahaha?
Does it change the fact that you are wrong about Sharpe's statement?
No.

No, I was absolutely correct about sharpe's statement. "Belly of the beast" was not intended as an insulting phrase.

That does not mean that sharpe never speaks disparagingly of the French. Indeed, if you actually read my post, you will see that I in fact allude to the fact that he does so often.

 

[Zardnaar]

My whol point of this thread was alot of powers have acted worse than the USA in there hey day. Calling Americans stupid, evil etc seem to be a security thing for people. The old powers of europe are has beens and I don't think the English are quite over the collapse of the empire or that the French and Germans realise they are largly irrelevent now. Iraq was a screw up and although I'm not a fan of Bush I can understand why he won the election- you can't even claim he stole it.

I suspect if Kerry won people would say he hasn't done enough etc.

 

[De Lorimier]

No, I was absolutely correct about sharpe's statement. "Belly of the beast" was not intended as an insulting phrase.

That does not mean that sharpe never speaks disparagingly of the French. Indeed, if you actually read my post, you will see that I in fact allude to the fact that he does so often.

Sorry but you don't understand (either by ignorance or by choice). The use of the expression "Belly of the Beast" was meant to explain that France is the nation wich is more guilty of the attitude talked about.
Insult.
I'm not saying he's the only one doing it or that people from all over the world aren't doing it, but it is an insult. This is nitpicking, but I felt like wasting some minutes on a stupid subject.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

The old powers of europe are has beens and I don't think the English are quite over the collapse of the empire or that the French and Germans realise they are largly irrelevent now.

Great Britain still has a great degree of power; if I were British, I would certainly bemoan the fall of the Empire, but I'd consider myself far more fortunate than some on the continent.

The Germans I agree with you on, but not the French. To their credit, the French realize what has occured and are working rather deviously to restore their relevancy. This is what makes them so dangerous.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Sorry but you don't understand (either by ignorance or by choice). The use of the expression "Belly of the Beast" was meant to explain that France is the nation wich is more guilty of the attitude talked about.
Insult.
I'm not saying he's the only one doing it or that people from all over the world aren't doing it, but it is an insult.

I don't disagree. However, the phrase "belly of the beast" in and of itself is not insulting, rather, another part of the sentence is.

Krzy apparently thought that the term "belly of the beast" itself, with use of the usually negative term "beast" was insulting. I merely explained that this was not the case.

 

[anarres]

Great Britain still has a great degree of power; if I were British, I would certainly bemoan the fall of the Empire, but I'd consider myself far more fortunate than some on the continent.

The Germans I agree with you on, but not the French. To their credit, the French realize what has occured and are working rather deviously to restore their relevancy. This is what makes them so dangerous.

Ahh, well that is where you are different to me then Seleucus, because I am British and I have zero pride or admiration for what this nation has (and still does to some extent) stand for, let alone the audacity to bemoan the fall of the Empire.

I would have to be a real idiot to care about national pride like that. What is important is not our position in the world, but that we look after the people of the world. A shame you don't share this view.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Ahh, well that is where you are different to me then Seleucus, because I am British and I have zero pride or admiration for what this nation has (and still does to some extent) stand for, let alone the audacity to bemoan the fall of the Empire.

I would have to be a real idiot to care about national pride like that. What is important is not our position in the world, but that we look after the people of the world. A shame you don't share this view.

A strong humanitarian argument can be made aggainst decolonization. After all, look at the suffering that has come upon Africa because of "ideals" such as yours.

 

[anarres]

Africa is messed up because we installed our own regimes, then pulled them out unilaterally. Then we loaned millions and millions to the dictators/pupet regimes left behind, and 30 years later the debt payments are still waaaaay too much for them to bear.

Only the UK has removed any debt from Africa - it's Tony's single and one good act as Prime Minister. The fact we created the problem means we should try to solve it, along with all of Europe.

But of course, all those do-gooders like me who know nothing about the world probably forced the European governments to lend money at extortionate rates to these dictators. I can really see the protests now: "Give cash to Africa! They need to buy guns to supress their peoples!"
Moderator Action: Language - warned.
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[SeleucusNicator]

That's not anti-Americanism, that's disagreeing with your foreign policy! Cant you have a friend who disagrees with you?
Anti-Americanism is when people always choose to interpretate a situation as if US is the bad guy, instead of looking at it objectively. Anti-Americanism is when people simply dislikes your country, or even wish harm upon it.
I like your country, the people, the nature, the idea, the culture. But I sure as hell don't like Bush, and the idea that you should always try to boost your self, even when on the expense of others.

Semantics, semantics.

For the time being, the people you describe are de-facto anti-Americans, because the United States is currently undertaking the foreign policy that they dislike.