RAT - 01 - DG Romans

[ThERat]

@onedreamer
i understand why Abe builds LBs now, but even before that i saw archers running around but not a single horse, I was a little worried that he might show up with horses to grab workers just beyond the border during my turns.
but sth is wrong with Abe since he also never built or upgraded spears to pikes.

btw once we get feudalism, we can't build legions any longer if i am not wrong

 

[dl123654]

Finished:

Our terrible money situation



Turnlog:

Turn 0 50AD:
Check all trades
Can buy Feudalism or Monotheism for all gold and about 30gpt
America willing to give Monotheism, Feudalism and almost Buffalo (they won't take any money in exchange)

Turn 1 70AD:
Start siege of Chicago, first attacker makes a leader .
Moves leader to Viroconium for FP
Take Chicago, no loses
Decide to attack Boston:
Legion dies, no health lost on spear
Kill spear x3, they had 4 till next turn
America will now give all techs, Buffalo or maybe Huston

IBT:
Maya wants 34 gold, gives it

Turn 2 90AD:
Rome Temple->Market
Viroconium Barrack->FP
Rush FP
Take Boston
Huston new American capital, will trade all techs and Buffalo for peace, maybe after taking Phili.

Turn 3 110AD:
Viroconium FP->temple
Quell 4 resisters in Boston last in Chicago
Second gem on line
Horses, Gems and 330 gold to France for Feudalism
Will make peace with America after taking Phili

IBT:
Ottoman and Scandinavia declare against China
Riots in Boston end

Turn 4 130AD:
Neapolis Temple->Market
Take Phili, was going to raze but France expanded again and would have taken the spot I wanted.
Peace with America for Mono, Invention and Buffalo, couldn't quite get Miami
Min research on Gunpowder
Build embassy with Maya, running 100% science, working on Sixtine Chapel in 44 turns, population 11, 9 production per turn, every improvement including university, they know education then, Oracle and Leonardo, have 3 irons!
Galleys meet, send one on sucide mission

IBT:
America and Ottoman declare on Maya
All restisters stop
Lose Galley

Turn 5 150AD:
Antium Lib->Pike
Hispalis Temple->Lib
Japan doesn't have Theology,
Trades China 130gold and 37gpt for Theology
Trades Japan Theology, 15gpt and 7gold for gunpowder
Have Saltpeter outside Viroconium
Min research on Chemistry
Send other galley on sucide mission

Turn 6 170AD:
Veii Market->Musket
Cumae Court->Musket
Pisae Temple->Musket

Turn 7 190AD:
Nothing

IBT:
GOLDEN AGE ENDS

Turn 8 210AD:
Pompeii Market->Musket
Hold revolution
See Japan doesn't have Education, can't afford it from anyone else

Turn 9 230AD:
Nothing

Turn 10 250AD:
Nothing

Notes:
We are VERY low on money right now, losing 50gpt, have 66gold left, a deal with France ends next turn, use that to get enough money till we are out of our revolution, sorry but I couldn't pass up getting Gunpowder.
Japan has all techs now, Ottomans missing Printing Press.
A Mayan deal ends in 3 turns also.
Our military is strong against France, Japan and America
France has many Spices, might want to consider declaring on them next after trade deals end.
I was in the domestic adviser, she said we would be in anarchy for 5 turns, has anyone else ever seen this message?

 

[ThERat]

good job for netting us a leader, getting all those cities and even a lot of techs
+ we have salpeter

and its sweet to see the AI's pounding each other consistantly

but the money situations is horrible. let's see the other turnlogs, deal with france ends in 1, but its a 8gp deal, won't help us at all...and it means less luxes, maybe we can trade that lux for a few gpt
the deal with maya involved our horses and a lux to get lux...well maybe we can sell horses and other stuff, situation is bleak.
trading just before the GA ends isn't the best move at times.
maybe MM can get us a better deal, swap citizens to taxman. but you talk about 50gpt...5 turns left until republic.
some work left for rrau to do.


Roster
ThERat
onedreamer
dl123654 - just played
rrau - up
shevek - on deck

 

[onedreamer]

I was in the domestic adviser, she said we would be in anarchy for 5 turns, has anyone else ever seen this message?

Yes, she always says it.
I don't think attacking France is a good idea. We can have good deals with them and Joan is not so aggressive and not a danger for now.
I would think of Ottomans instead. They are in the center of the world, very strategic position, and they are involved in several wars already.
If we plan on another war, I would have rather tried to get Chivalry than Gunpowder.

 

[Shevek]

Don't worry about the minus gpt, we are in anarchy and do not produce any gold. As long as in anarchy we will just stay at 0 gold and not lose any units or buildings.
In a way it is quite good that we do not have money left, as it would just have been wasted.

We should send 2 workers to the gems near Chicago and have them found colonies. To wait for an culture expansion will take a long time. We can use them for trade.

I think it is time to decide what is our preferred victory condition.
I think military is the best option (conquest, domination), we are the Romans after all.

If so, we also ought to think about who will be our next foe.
I agree with onedreamer to leave France alone for the time being.
She is only 4. in the power chart and no danger to us. Moreover all other Ai seem to be at war with her and we could be her best and only trading partner.
I think Ottomans or Maya should be next.
Why?
Both are high in the ranking (Maya 2. , Ottos 3.). Both are close (China is first in ranking but too far away). We must cut down the bullies early before they grow too big.
I prefer the Ottos as next enemy. The are better located for our next war, their territory can be connected to our road network quickly and another lux (silk near Bursa) is close by. Also, their towns are likely to produce some money and shields for us as they are not too far from our core.
And if we get their land we can seal China off at the landbridge. Then they would have to rely on boats to reach the rest of the continent.
Also we do not want to wait for them to get their Sipahi, do we?

If going for military win, I think we need not bother with libraries and unis. At this level self-research seems quite inefficient. We can get our techs by pointy-stick, trade and stealing it.

We must make sure that as many AIs as possible are at war with each other. At the moment it is really paradise. Everyone is at war with at least 1 other AI.
We must watch China (1. in power) and Maya (1. in culture). Keep them at war if possible. China would make a good ally against Ottos.

Our next priority for a few turns after getting Republic should be infra structure, though. Markets, courts and aquaducts are all essential.
Also we need more workers.

Sorry for the long 'article'.

 

[rrau]

>>>THE SAVE<<<

preflight (250ad)

Hired some taxmen to shake our people down for money. we're now only losing 16gpt

ibt: zzz

turn 1 (260ad)

still in anarchy
built a couple gem colonies
Trade Maya gems for 13g + 8gpt
Trade China gems for 153g + 2gpt
We now have 212g at -4gpt (now we won't go bankrupt and break our deals )

ibt:

renewed our deal with France (expensive): trade dyes + 92g for Spices

turn 2 (270ad)

moved some troops to front line cities in anticipation of battle with the Ottomans

ibt: zzz

turn 3 (280ad)

zzz

ibt:

Scandanavia and France signed MA against Ottomans
Renewed Deal with Maya for incense for dyes and horses, but afterwards, see some MI heading towards our towns

turn 4 (290ad)

Shift some troops from Viroconium towards Hispalis - looks like it will be the target city

ibt:

China and France Signed a peace treaty
Ottomans want MA against Vikings and a Rop - no
Mayan troops turn around and head back towards home
The Roman Republic is born

turn 5 (300ad)

Massive MM

ibt: zzz

turn 6 (310ad)

Elite unit Rat trained to use a longbow

ibt:

France and America signed Peace Treaty
Chinese built Knights Templar

turn 7 (320ad)

Rush temple in Philadelphia (want to expand borders to claim a spice before our deal runs out in about 15 turns)

turn 8 (330ad)

not much

ibt:zzz

turn 9 (340ad)

start a settler and 2 legions towards a razed city site - I don't know if we can make it before it's settled though

ibt:

turn 10 (350ad)

moved some workers to road the mountain North of Bursa to facilitate troop movements for the attack

Notes:

We're researching at minimum with a scientist in Buffalo

We have money either to upgrade units or buy tech

There's 2 legions and 1 settler heading to the spot South of Bursa

There's a settler in Viroconium - would recommend sending along on the campaign and razing Bursa and settling a new town. Less flip risk and we get some foreign workers without upkeep costs

 

[ThERat]

great progress in the game, we are a healthy republic i guess

i guess we all agree to hit Ottoman next, btw Bursa has Sun Tzu. We are such a cultureless Civ, we can't afford to keep those cities. I think once we start to conquer Ottoman land, we better bring along settlers.
Looking at the powergraph, I can see that China is the powerhouse, their UU certainly helped them net GA and they seem to have overrun the Vikings. We better get to that bottleneck faster and hold it.
If we manage to do that, we got all options in which direction we want to expand.
I am all for conquest or domination. We have all the pre-requisites for it in my mind.
Btw, going for Ottoman, I am sure their cities are defended by muskets, we might want to add more Trebs to our pathetic 2 cats.

Sorry for the long 'article'.

why do you say that, Shevek? I thought SG's are meant to discuss. I already learned a lot of things by playing with you guys here. So, please do not stop your contributions to discussions.

 

[ThERat]

oh forgot to post

Roster
ThERat - on deck
onedreamer
dl123654
rrau - just played
shevek - up

 

[Shevek]

... btw Bursa has Sun Tzu. We are such a cultureless Civ, we can't afford to keep those cities.

Do you mean to raze the Sun Tzu?
Surely we could recapture if it flipped?

Question: Should I starve the American cities down to 1? Or leave them as they are? Foreign citizens get much faster unhappy during war than native ones, in my experience.

I got it and will play tonight.

PS:

..why do you say that, Shevek? I thought SG's are meant to discuss.

Just a little bout of insecurity, I guess.
Actually, I am enjoying this SG immensely. It's an honour to play with you guys.

 

[ThERat]

what does the rest feel? shall we keep bursa, if we capture it? it got a very valuable wonder, i agree.
btw, i really do feel we need to plan the Ottoman war properly. we can trade a fair bit (when i looked at the save). i am sure we can net chivalry. we need more trebs and knights before we go for Ottoman, else our losses would be very heavy with our attack 3 unit versus defense 4.

 

[onedreamer]

I think we should keep Bursa. I almost never raze cities, but I tend to build more culture than we did with this.
Point is, with Wonder Victory on, I would keep any Wonder-city, no matter how important the wonder is. If Bursa is not too close to Istanbul it shouldn't be a big issue. We should just decide how to behave once its conquered. If we leave a strong garrison there, flips are less likely, but they can still happen, and if they do we loose more troops. I think we should leave a weak garrison but be ready to retake it at any time. After Bursa we should march on and take Istanbul. Generally taking the capital is a big strike in the heart of a Civ's culture. If there is no wonder in Instanbul we can raze it.

Your article was very welcome Shevek. Didn't you see the lenght of my last turnlog ?
I am enjoying playing this game with you all too. I learnt much especially on how to trade (or not trade) with the AI in the early stages. I started a new single player game (emperor) to put in practice what I learnt and I was able to do much better and take a tech lead already in the middle/late AA.

 

[ThERat]

i checked F7, Bursa has 2 wonders, well I guess we need to keep it, though I think we go for military victory, better be safe with wonders.
i thought Istanbul was detroyed, where there is the void we want to settle. checked my last save and it's true, Istanbul is no more.
Looking at the save and the situation, I think we should just get knights and crush Ottomans completely, that reduces the flip risk a lot.
Our research path should go towards MT, we need cav's and then go after the 2 powerhouses, Maya and China.

 

[Shevek]

Rome

Goals:
get chivalry for knights
bolster infra structure
prepare for war and modernise troops

Pre turn
switch rax in Philly to treb, we have already lots of barracks and Philly is not likely to become productive any time soon with all that jungle, also we will have Sun Tzu soon (hopefully)
switch Seattle rax to court
leave barracks build in Washington as it will help healing troops in the coming war
change Pisae to Aquaduct as with growth past its current 6 pop it can get to the magic 10spt,
lux to 0%, income from 112 to 139, Cumae needs clown now, Boston gets taxman for 3 turns (until temple is ready), everyone else is fine
Buy Chemistry from Joan (she is cheapest and nicest) + her TM for 51gpt, WM + 379g
Chemistry to Japan for Chivalry and PP
Our TM and WM to China for TM, 2gpt, 7g
Chemistry to Vikings for Edu, their maps and 3g
Everyone up astronomy and Music theory on us, we are up chemistry on Osman but he will not agree to straight swap
we are broke but still make 88gpt
lone scientist for banking
enter

IT
Osman and China make peace
Mao wants TM and 19g, give it to him

1. 360 AD
France and Maya have aquired metallurgy
sell Osman chemistry + 89g for astronomy, no per turn commitment
switch Rome and Antium from MDI to knights

IT
Washington rax-> knight
Veii rax-> knight
SF worker -> worker

2. 370 AD
switch Pompei from musket to knight
banking and navigation is now known, wow AI research is fast
will try to get more tech next turn from Joan (horse and gem deal runs out)
upgrade our cats to trebs

IT
the big boys China and Maya ally against Abe (the poor, poor dear )
Boston temple -> treb
SF worker -> worker

3. 380 AD
Veii and Rome need taxman
ring up Joan, she will give metallurgy for 50gpt, 104g, horses, gems, make the deal
Metall. to Abe for navigation, 6gpt, WM and worker
Metall to Japan for Music theory, wines, 6gpt, 6g (all he had)
can fire taxmen in Veii and Rome again (they had short employment)

IT
France and Japan make peace
Antium knight -> knight
Pompeii knight -> knight

4. 390 AD
China, Maya, France are up banking, we are up navigation and metallugy to Osman, even with everyone else
moving troops towards Bursa
we are still too weak to take it, a few turns more
Philly expands, we have the incense in our city influence but not connected yet

IT
Rome knight -> knight
and then disaster strikes, Boston flips to America and also claims huge number of tiles (cry quietly onto the keybord )
we lose horses (our other 2 sources go to France and Maya)
cannot take it back without damaging rep (18 turn deal with Abe)

5. 400 AD
rush spear in Buffalo
found Lutetia S of Bursa, builds temple

IT
SF worker -> worker
Ravenna 'duct -> MDI
Buffalo spear -> harbor
Japanese are building Copernicus + Magellans

6. 410 AD
Maya and France have MT
Osman is still behind navigation and metallurgy
upgrade 3 trebs to cannon, 2 legs to MDI
France enters our territory with 4 knights, presumably to get to Bursa (they are at war with Osman)

7. 420 AD
Cumae needs clown
no use to wait any longer, declare on Osman
move troops into position

IT
Veii knight -> MDI
Pisae 'duct -> musket
Osman is investing into Bach's

8. 430 AD
attack Bursa
cannon takes 1 hp off musket
cannon takes 1 hp off musket
cannon fails
heroic Rat longbow kills musket without damage
army kills musket, takes 2 damage
army kills musket, takes 2 damage
MDI kills musket and redlines
MDI kills musket and redlines
Elite archer kills LB, Bursa is ours without loss, get 3 slaves, have now Sun Tzu and Mausoleum
we have 2 silks now (Bursa is build on 1 source)
beat France to Bursa by 1 turn, they move their knights and LBs on towards Konya
Maya are sending 2 knights as well
will continue straight to Edrine (capital), it has also horses
France will sell MT for around 80gpt and silks, wait with deal until we have actually horses back

IT
SF worker -> worker

9. 440 AD
physics is out there now

IT
Maya have taken Edrine, there go our horses
Vikings and Maya ally against America (yes, hit them hard)
Antium Knight -> musket
Ravenna MDI -> MDI
Maya land LB at Lugdunum to go to Boston
Both french and mayan troups head for Konya

10. 450 AD
I have not moved any troops this turn
the situation is a bit confusing and I think we should decide whether to follow up and try for Iznik or leave it to Maya/France to mop up
we cannot reach Konya in time before it is being taken by France (unless they get unlucky)

I think we ought to try for Iznik to seal off Chinese border.

In 1 turn our deals with France (spices for dyes) and Maya (gems for 8gpt) and China (gems for 2gpt) run out, there will be some trading opportunities

There is a settler in the stack at Bursa, there is nice land around to settle.
Good luck

 

[rrau]

I was going to look at the save but get a "page cannot be found" error. Will try again later.

 

[ThERat]

got it, will play late at night after enjoying a friday night out.

btw the save link is broken, please fix it, Shevek, thanks.

wow, what a rollercoaster ride.

this is what I feared, culture flips while we have deals ongoing. I will get that city as soon as our deal ends (we can only hope that others do not take the city before that).
before committing other deals, i would like to decide who is our next target and in my mind it has to be one of the big guys. the tech pace is unreal and we can't afford to have this going on. I would like to hit Maya (once we acquired Cav's) and get Japan, France and China as allies, to slow them all down. I think by now Vikings, America and Ottoman are as good as dead.

what does the rest think

 

[Shevek]

Try this link

Yes, Boston is quite a bummer.
And I should not have made the deal with America, was not thinking straight here.
I tried last night to upload some pics but it seemed not to work.

 

[Shevek]

Situation around Bursa:

Iznik

I had more pictures but the upload with my dial-up modem is sooo painfully slow. And I have to leave for work now.

 

[ThERat]

thanks Shevek, it's working now

looking at your screenshots, confirmed I will try and grab Iznik and maybe Aydin to seal the passage for China before Ottomans are history. Japan seems to lose against Maya as well.
I want to get MT and build up some Cav's before going after Maya, try and get Japan and France in as well.
We need to stop the AI before they are too powerful.
And once the deal is up (after my turns) we take back Boston and Miami as additional bounty.

 

[onedreamer]

I thought we had decided to raze America's cities cos of our low culture. Chicago and Phila were no danger because of 0 culture but Atlanta and Boston had 3 tiles influence. Boston should have been razed and replaced :/
There was a settler in Cumae ready to do so.
What is done is done... now the situation is a bit complicated and we should decide very carefully where to move next. I don't like too much the idea of attacking Maya allying with China. The current situation is that China looks the most powerful but is sealed off by a land bridge. If we ally with China, we will have to let them roam on our side of the continent. I don't really like the idea. And I don't like the idea they could get some Mayan cities.

I think our options are either to attack Mayans with help of France and Japan only, or to attack China with the help of Maya. In case we choose the second, I would leave Iznik to Mayans, and let Mayans and China fight for a while, in the meantime we can build a fleet to transport troops and reinforce our army. We can try to hold Buffalo or not, I don't think we should care too much about it. After we build a massive army, we should land it next to at least 3 chinese cities, and try to split China between north and south. The southern part should be much weaker as it was recently conquered from Vikings. If we decide our next target are Mayans, we should take Iznik and leave a good garrison there, because while at war with Mayans, China could decide to sneak attack us. In that case we would have to suspend the war with Mayans, and I really doubt we would get them as allies against China. So in short after all this talk... I think we should strike Mao

 

[ThERat]

going to play now, but slowly, onedreamer, you can then continue later on

attacking China sounds good too, I don't like their strength. i checked the save and see the following trades
America 13 turns (6gpt)
China 10 turns (they give us 2gpt)
Maya 3 turns (luxes etc + horses)
France 13 turns (horses etc)
Japan 13 turns

esp those low gpt deals are just a nuisance, we should not do that, if we aren't sure about our future strategy.

so, I can't strike China, but could strike Maya and get Japan and France in. In 3 turns, we can build Cav's with horses back.
I won't keep any Mayan cities, unless they are former Ottoman ones. We have to raze all cities except maybe the wonder cities.