RB15: Taking The Long View

T0 - 1625AD

Mansa has some Iron to sell, but except for building pikes, we don't need that (and will know at some point).
On the other hand he also has gold (2 happy) and Spice (1 happy, 1 health).
So we trade Wines+crabs for gold+spice
and then clam for deer with Louis.

galley are still far away, so dealing with Louis seems right (especially since he likes our civics, maybe we will be able to have him as an ally when attacking Mao.

Since we gain 3 happy, start disbanding useless warriors (while building real troops).

Since we don't have any foreign trade routes, I can't see the point of not being in Mercantilism, the extra 3gpt will be worth all the extra specialists.
I consider Vassal as well as the 14 extra free military and +2 XP should be easily equivalent to the extra 5gpt.

Revolt to both to avoid revolting twice, even if short term is slightly bad as we don't have too much extra troops.

Another thing, with civil service in 16techs and biology in 32techs, we are not going to have lots of food to growth, so farm along rivers/lakes should have been better for growth (which we all realised was not a good thing up to now as we had happiness problem).

Now, we have town next to river which are great, but can't grow to use the other square. We should try to keep that in mind for the new cities (especially with food poor cities). I will farm over the not worked cottage to grow quickly and later we can swap them back to cottage.

T4 - 1645AD
Meet Jewish Egypt
Sign open border with her (expecting to see some missionary coming)
same with France (well not missionary, but getting better relations)

T5 - 1650AD
Replacable Parts-> Steam Power (14t at 70%)
We can have a few more cities now I think, so 2settlers are started for the 2 good sites left.

France founds Islam, so maybe we will received missionaries from Louis.

T9 - 1670AD
Confuscianism gets in Washington (not revolt now).
2 cities founded.
How close was that one


T10 - 1675AD
Islam gets in Miami.

New cities are set on Forge first to be able to get a engineer specialist.
Mansa settler/longbow is in Portland now, probably going towards the barbarian area.
A mini task force is there, trying to see if we can raze/capture it.

Comments
We probably should set Washington on missionaries (after temple/monastry) and spread Confuscianism. In that case we should revolt to it at some point.

Jabah



Spoiler :

----------------------------New entries----------------------------
Turn 235 (1625 AD)

Turn 236 (1630 AD)
San Francisco finishes: Bank
Los Angeles finishes: Bank
Portland finishes: Granary
St. Louis finishes: Forge

Turn 237 (1635 AD)
San Francisco begins: Grocer
Los Angeles begins: Grocer
Portland begins: Forge
St. Louis begins: Bank
New York grows: 9
Philadelphia's borders expand
Chicago grows: 9
St. Louis grows: 7

Turn 238 (1640 AD)
Los Angeles grows: 5
Houston grows: 6
Portland grows: 5
Contact made: Egyptian Empire

Turn 239 (1645 AD)
Washington begins: Settler
Tech learned: Replaceable Parts
Atlanta finishes: Grocer

Turn 240 (1650 AD)
Atlanta begins: Settler
New York finishes: Grocer
Boston grows: 12
Philadelphia grows: 9
Seattle grows: 9

Turn 241 (1655 AD)
New York grows: 7
New York finishes: Walls
Portland grows: 6
St. Louis grows: 8

Turn 242 (1660 AD)
New York begins: Market
Boston finishes: Market
Chicago grows: 10
Chicago finishes: Bank
Seattle finishes: Market

Turn 243 (1665 AD)
Boston begins: Grenadier
Chicago begins: Grocer
Seattle begins: Worker
Washington finishes: Settler
Atlanta finishes: Settler
Confucianism has spread: Washington

Turn 244 (1670 AD)
Atlanta begins: Market
Miami founded
Miami begins: Forge
Buffalo founded
Buffalo begins: Forge
San Francisco grows: 6
Portland grows: 7
Islam has spread: Miami

Turn 245 (1675 AD)
 
I "have" it (I don't really since I am not at my Civ computer). Any way I will probably post tomorrow morning. Looks good. Good call on Vassalage, we will need the extra promotion.

-Atlas
 
That's why I always like to say "I see it" if I know that I'm up but haven't downloaded the file. I've actually become somewhat superstitious in that I feel like if I say "got it" instead of "see it", and haven't downloaded the save yet, something will happen that prevents me from downloading the file (wrong file, server down, lost internet connection, etc), and I will have to go back and say "actually, I never had it". :crazyeye:
 
Just a quick reply to say that I won't be able to play (and even have access to the forum) between this friday and sunday (both included).

Jabah
 
Nor I, actually, I'm out of town. We'll take a short break, I guess.

I at least should be able to get one more round in before then, though.

Garath
 
T0- Steam Power in 8 at 70% gpt+14. I am not entirely sure that I like that Barb city in the far north, I mean, fishing villages in Civ 3 were one thing but I am a touch more dubious about them in Civ 4. Things look good in the cities.

T1- Move workers. *Yawn*.

T2- I turn off research for one turn, Hatty will (in theory) trade her world map, I am curious about the cost.

T3- Louis Demands we cancel our deals with MM, I refuse Louis will be dying sooner rather than later. I buy Hatty's world map for 410 gold. MM's land is terrible-Thank God!! He has very little grassland. Hatty has the Hydra going on in Thebes. The Map also gives a peak of some German lands and a bit of Alex's land. Looks like everybody, but Louis and Mao got their own continent. For 20 gold I get MM's world map,it shows a bit of Alex's land. Turn Research back on.

T4- Louis offers incense for wine. I accept.

T5- Louis offers a world map trade, I decline. Whip grocer in Chicago. Whip forge in Portland. Philly is building a work boat, use this work boat to contact Germany, get his map!

T6- We are the least powerful civ!!!

T7-zzzzz'

T9-We enter the Industrial Age, without knowledge of sailing, calendar and number of other things :rolleyes: Steam Power comes in Washington and Buffalo have coal. Iron working in 1 turn (I hope we have iron, we are a bit weak on production so rails would be nice).

T10- Iron near LA, Chicago, and will be near Portland after a border expansion. Try and Whip the Market in the Northwest.
 
Oh by the Way Paris is awesome 3 fish, one crab, and one deer, a couple of hills, I mean it could only be better if it were on a river. Check out Thebes!
 

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Looks like the "random number" on "custom continent" was more or less equal to the number of civ...
We will have to assault all this continents with galleys soon :)

Jabah
 
Well, I definitely wasn't expecting to leave my house before 8:30am and return after midnight today.

Sorry about holding the game up, and since I only *may* not end up doing the same thing tomorrow, even with such a small roster Jabah is welcome to play before me if he sees the game anytime before I post an actual "Playing Now" post.

Apologies. I sleep now.

Garath
 
I am up in another SG right now (and will play it in 10hours). I will check this one later and see if I can do both.
Jabah
 
Right then. State of the Game:

We're about 40 turns from Sailing, or so. This means Jabah should see the first action, in his turn after next. Still plenty of time to build Grenadiers and Cannons, since Steel will come in by the end of my turns.

We finally have some religion! Washington, New York and Portland have Confucianism, with more Missionaries being built from Washington. There's also Islam in Miami, but that isn't as interesting. I'll switch us to Confucianism during my turns, and also Theocracy, in preparation for our military buildup, which should have already started.

Also finally, we have Iron Working! Not that we aren't still missing half a dozen other crucial techs like Code of Laws and Civil Service, but we have Iron Working at last! There are three iron in our general vicinity, none of which are yet connected. The two that are actually in our borders already have cottages on, so I shall look at them carefully before decide where hammers and more important and where commerce is. I shall get one of them connected soon enough, though.

In fact, I've just noticed that two more cities, both currently building military, also have Confucianism. I don't have long on the timer before those revolts. In fact, I might as well do them NOW.

First action of my turn: Revolt to join the Confucian Bloc! (Currently consisting of Mansa (founder), Alex and Mao)

There are still some things we need to whip. I'll keep an eye on them.

For anyone still watching, here is a picture of our current lands:



Note that Mansa has a city on our lands, up near the Barbarian one. It also has another settler in it. It doesn't really seem to be doing any harm, though, what with those lands being terrible.

One last thing: I was informed that we still need to meet the Germans. Odd that they haven't come over to us, being close neighbours, but never mind. A Work Boat is started, aimed to head over that way, but it'll be a little while, especially with the revolts.

Turn 1 (1730): Taoism spreads in Chicago. Pity we'll never be able to go to Free Religion, really, with all those three and a Jewish Missionary being brought to us by Hatty, I think.

I debate for a while about whether to bother actually capturing the Barbarian city, but in the end decide that we can definitely afford it, and I'm getting bored of it. Besides, when we eventually get Sailing and can build Lighthouses, it'll actually be able to do something useful, and it might as well get started on some culture before then.

Catapult retreats, Musket loses doing no damage at 50%, then Axeman kills the longbow from 8.3%. Go figure. Mauryan, that millennia-old blight on our landscape, is finally ours.

I un-start the Work Boat in New York again, since I find the one that's already on go-to to the east, at no cost since the one turn it's been in the queue for was a turn of Anarchy.

I delay revolting to Theocracy for a turn, since no military builds are finishing this turn, and I might as well let Hatty actually spread us some Judaism just in case it comes in useful.

Turn 3 (1740): Well, Hatty's Caravel with the missionary on turned out to just be skirting out coast, and a Confucian guy is about to finish his training with Grenades up in Seattle, so I institute the Theocracy.

Turn 5 (1750): Most of the other leaders have been following us into Theocracy over the last few turns. Louis has also joined us in the Confucian Bloc, leaving only Hatty (and possibly Bizzy) out in the cold. Not that that makes any difference to the fact that we're going to attack him, as soon as we work out how to not sink on this damn salt water stuff! Can anybody help us? :confused:

Turn 6 (1755): Whipped a few more bits of infrastructure. Everywhere currently building units has Confucianism, for building 8xp Grenadiers, and Washington is still pumping out about 2 in 3 turns or so. It won't be long before it's as spread as it needs to be.

I decide to burn a little of our stored cash back into discovering Steel before my turn ends. Petty, I know, but we're always going to be running 80% some of the time anyway, it might as well be now.

Turn 7 (1760): I shove in a few Monasteries where they'll fit, since it'll be a fair while yet before we get Scientific Method, there's still time for the gain in science rate to be worth it.

Turn 9 (1770): Not so much Bizzy as Freddy! He turns up, finally, as our Work Boat reaches the island to our east. He's in second place, Christian, with lots of cities compared to most. He refuses unconditionally to trade his World Map, but I was able to get some Sheep for our last spare Wine, since some of our cities are still unhealthy. We also have Coal over him, which I can only presume means he doesn't have Steam Power, and we maybe aren't *quite* as far behind as we thought. Particularly since we can actually see a Coal in his lands, from the map info bought from someone else.

Turn 10 (1775): I signed an Open Borders agreement with Freddy in the IT without thinking. Sorry about that, in retrospect it might not be sensible, since as a non-member of the Confucian Bloc he may well be people's worst enemy. Best watch out for that.

STEEL comes in, giving us:
1) Ironworks. We should pick a place, and then build it, even though it'll probably take ages, I think. We've still got time before the real fighting starts against people like Mansa.

2) Ironclads! Despite being unable to enter Ocean territory, these *will* be useful for fighting Mao and Louis, and for defending our nets during all the future wars. So build some! However, don't do it before

3) Drydocks. These go without saying in all coastal production cities. The first one has just been started, since Seattle finished a Grenadier this turn.
Speaking of which, from now on they can be interspersed with

4) Cannons! They can join the grenadiers in flooding to the East coast, as I've been doing with them. The beginnings of a force are coming together at last.

What a useful tech!

Railroad started in 16 at 70% (or 14 at 80, so it should be possible to beat 16 overall, especially with Monasteries coming in in the next few turns.) That, also, should be a very useful tech, since as far as I can see there's no reason we shouldn't actually be able to build the things, as well as a few Machine Gunners for stack defense!

Anyway, that's me done.



That settler party has been wandering around up here since I took down Mauryan, but seems to be heading back now, having discovered that the land here is too poor for even an AI to settle.



This settler party, however, is more likely to actually settle, probably on the point of that icy island, to get the two fish we aren't reaching. Never mind, he'll probably build the nets for us in the mere 35 or so turns he has before we take it away from him again!

Do note, though, that it's in a Galleon. He's got Astronomy. It'll be a long while before we have that...



We're doing, ah, middling on the Demographics. We may well be first on Prod, second on food, and second on GNP, but just *look* at that value for the first place on GNP. Mansa's a monster! I don't even think he's in a Golden Age at the moment!

And we've got fewer than 200 turns left at the *absolute* maximum. Not even close to that before he launches, I should imagine. We need to get this show on the road soon!

And we definitely still need more soldiers. Louis pretty much lost his war with Mao, as far as I can tell from the Power Graph, and so is down with us, but we're quite a long way from everybody else, and I'd prefer to attack Mao first simply based on proximity.

Anyway, Jabah, you're up!

Garath
 
Got it, will play tonight, but unless the cable company finds and repares the network problem they had yesterday, I will have to post the result tomorrow morning at work.

Jabah
 
How is Mansa getting that much gold???? He had very limited amounts of Grassland :confused: :confused: . Anyway, it does not matter how, He is a gold getting monster too bad he is not our neighbor ;) . Mao will have to do. I can't believe our production is as strong as it is, but we will never keep up with Mansa's teching almost 2x ours, good thing that the AI does not fight as well as the human or we could be in trouble.

-Atlas
 
Other than, you know, being financial, I think Mansa rocks the commerce so well via good game theory instead of picking fights and holding grudges. This gives him the best trade routes and access to more resources. I think the AI as a whole benefits when he's in the game.
 
T0 - 1775AD

Change a few orders, mainly getting monastry first in cities which can have them.
Cancel the OB with Egypt (for religious reasons)

early
Start Iron work in washington.

T7- 1804AD
Mansa adopts emancipation, causing minor trouble for us.

T9 - 1808AD
Get great Enginner in Boston, send it to washington to speed Iron Works

T10 - 1810AD
Cancel OB with Germany (christian) at Louis's request.
Iron Works will be finished next turn.
A islamic Missionary is also in Washington trying to get another religion there (for the 10% extra research - I missed the first try 2t ago), we can try to get several religion is the main cities.

I think Theocracy was not really that good right now compared to Organized Religion, as most cities were mainly on infrastructure and 8XP instead of 6XP is not a big bonus. (now, we will be building mainly troops, so stay in Theocracy).

Railroad in 4t.

Jabah

Spoiler :

----------------------------New entries----------------------------
Turn 265 (1775 AD)
Los Angeles begins: Islamic Monastery
Philadelphia begins: Confucian Monastery
Seattle begins: Confucian Monastery
St. Louis grows: 9

Turn 266 (1780 AD)
Washington finishes: Confucian Missionary
Boston finishes: Confucian Monastery
Portland grows: 8
St. Louis finishes: Grocer

Turn 267 (1785 AD)
Washington begins: Musketman
Washington begins: Confucian Missionary
Boston begins: Pikeman
Boston begins: Cannon
St. Louis begins: Aqueduct
Confucianism has spread: Miami
Boston begins: Confucian Missionary
Confucianism has spread: Los Angeles
Washington begins: Ironworks
Atlanta finishes: Confucian Monastery
Seattle grows: 10
Seattle finishes: Confucian Monastery
San Francisco grows: 5

Turn 268 (1790 AD)
Atlanta begins: Confucian Missionary
Seattle begins: Drydock
Boston finishes: Confucian Missionary
Chicago grows: 9
Los Angeles finishes: Islamic Monastery
Miami grows: 3
Buffalo grows: 4

Turn 269 (1795 AD)
Boston begins: Confucian Missionary
Confucianism has spread: St. Louis
St. Louis begins: Confucian Monastery
Los Angeles begins: Islamic Missionary
Philadelphia finishes: Confucian Monastery
Atlanta finishes: Confucian Missionary
Houston's borders expand
Portland grows: 9
Mauryan grows: 2

Turn 270 (1800 AD)
Atlanta begins: Confucian Missionary
New York finishes: Confucian Monastery
Boston finishes: Confucian Missionary
Philadelphia finishes: Grenadier
San Francisco finishes: Confucian Monastery

Turn 271 (1802 AD)
New York begins: Drydock
Boston begins: Grenadier
San Francisco begins: Drydock
Philadelphia grows: 13
Los Angeles finishes: Islamic Missionary
Houston grows: 7
Portland finishes: Confucian Monastery

Turn 272 (1804 AD)
Portland begins: Grocer
Confucianism has spread: Mauryan
Confucianism has spread: Houston
Los Angeles begins: Confucian Monastery
Los Angeles begins: Islamic Missionary
Atlanta finishes: Confucian Missionary
Seattle finishes: Drydock
St. Louis grows: 10
St. Louis finishes: Confucian Monastery

Turn 273 (1806 AD)
Atlanta begins: Cannon
Seattle begins: Ironclad
Confucianism has spread: Buffalo
Leonardo da Vinci (Great Engineer) born in Boston
Atlanta grows: 11
Chicago grows: 10
Los Angeles finishes: Islamic Missionary
Portland grows: 10

Turn 274 (1808 AD)
Los Angeles begins: Confucian Monastery
Boston finishes: Grenadier
San Francisco grows: 6
Los Angeles grows: 8

Turn 275 (1810 AD)
Boston begins: Cannon
Houston begins: Confucian Monastery
 
When I switched us to Theocracy, we *were* building mostly troops, actually. Also I didn't want to lose another turn to anarchy by going to Organised Religion, when clearly we're going to need to be in Theocracy for pretty much the rest of the game and every turn is likely to matter in the race against Mansa.

Possibly I have a higher opinion of that extra 2xp than you do, though. I find that being able to win just one fight, and then promote to a third promotion, immediately healing the unit and keeping it in the thick of the fight as a very powerful unit, is not to be missed where it's achievable.

And great that we got an Engineer! I was hoping for that. I guess Iron Works shouldn't be all that far from completion now, then?

The clock is ticking. 20 turns left, now. Don't waste time on Monasteries or Missionaries if it'll cost us the units we need to be able to roll straight over Mao (and Louis, for that matter) in one push.

Remember, we're going to have horrible problems with unhappiness when more Emancipation and War Weariness hit. We need to be able to take enemies out in a single push just to reduce the War Weariness, let alone all the other reasons.

Garath
 
Got it! Will post later today!
 
T0- Whip Grocer in Portland. By the way we are in Theocracy, I thought we were in Org. Religion, but this appears to not be the case. So no gov't changes. I plan on not building one building this turn set (except those that are already started and in some places that have no shield/production)

T1-Ironworks completes in Washington (causing some health problems). Seattle finishs a ironclad and will likely build nothing else for my whole turn set.

T2-Some canons finish. Philly starts a drydock, it and Seattle are about the onle real stong shield producing and coastal cities.

T3-St. Louis starts a barracks.

T4- Railroad comes in. Military Rail net begun.

T5- Worker movements

T6- Worker movements. Sorry I forgot to say that after Railroad we started Combustion it is now due in 9 turns at 70% +37gpt.

T7- Workers.

T8- zzz

T9- zzz

T10- Ok, there are some workers on go-to orders building rails, we only have like 8-9 so it is slow going, I did not see the need to build more but that could be :smoke: . As far as the workers remember *NOT* to stack them on rail orders since this wastes half moves. Soon we will have lots of ironclads. I stuck with my plan of not building a single building in any cities that actually have any production value. Buffalo that half city that is half desert with a coal resource, it is currently building a barracks, let that finish and then just put it on military, this city lack a lot of infra, but it produces like zero science/commerce so just let it build units like every 10 turns. I am skeptical that we will pull this off, but it won't be for lack of trying. I think about the time we have rolled over Mao/Louis and prepare for the next person Mansu will launch on us. Win or Lose it does not really matter (to me at least), since I think this excersize was fun any way.

I built mostly cannons and ironclads, some Machine gunners are in the pipeline.

@Bezhukov-Game Theory is an interesting idea, I agree with you I sort of think that Mansa's "behavior" is optimal for the AI, but I think that this is only so because the rest of the AI does not mimic his behavior, if all the AIs were Mansa it would be a real disadvantage to the AI in general since the Human could just tech whore. But still take a look at Mansa's land!! It is like 30-40% Desert, I have no idea how that commerce is being generated.
 
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