RB19 - True Cultural Challenge

[Sullla]

Hello all, this is another variant game from the folks at Realms Beyond.

RB19: True Culture Challenge
Civ: Arabia/Saladin (Philosophical/Spiritual)
Map: Ice Age, Wide Continents
Difficulty: Monarch
Other: Normal Speed, Ancient Start, all other rules default
Variant Rule: Must win by culture, but can never use the culture slider or build culture!

Roster:
Sullla
Blake
Quack
Compromise
Garath

Standard rules for succession games apply: 24 hours to post a "got it" message, then 48 hours to play after that. The initial turns follow this post.

 

[Sullla]

It feels good to be starting out a succesion game again after such a long time. I WANTED to run this on an Oasis map with us starting in the north of the map instead of in the southern jungle, but it appears that's not possible to do short of modding the game. I do NOT want to play this game out of the jungle at the bottom of the Oasis; this isn't intended to be an insanely difficult game. I'm NEVER going to get the chance to play the northern start on this map, Sirian! Argh. With that in mind, I decided to scrap the Oasis map and go with an Ice Age map, with the large (Wide) continents setting. Here's what the game threw out for me on the first go:

(0) 4000BC Wow! I went through about 4 starts unsuccessfully trying to get the northern location on the Oasis map script, but this was the first one that I rolled for the Ice Age setting. We have corn and two ivory at the start, and also cows and STONE (!) nearby. I ponder for quite some time over whether to move northeast/east to get the cows in range; I hate to move away from the blue circle, but it's just SUCH a good location. Screw it, let's move there anyway. Cows + corn + ivory + four hill tiles should get us plenty of wonders. Let's do it!

(1) 3960BC Mecca founded on the spot mentioned previously. One of the reasons I chose Saladin was so that we could hopefully get some religious culture going early on; therefore, research goes into Polytheism and Hinduism first. Since we have no worker techs (aside from Wheel), we begin production on a warrior first. Mecca works the corn tile for max food out of the gate. And we're underway!

(4) 3840BC Pop a scout from our first hut!

I wish Compromise were playing these turns, given what he did with a scout in Epic Three! Still, this is a huge boost. If we can pop a worker tech here using our scout, we may be in VERY good shape.

(6) 3760BC Mecca's borders expand, revealing very little. Jungle to the north of us though, we should be able to cut it down and run Artist specialists very far in the future. I like to dream early on.

(7) 3720BC Scout finds some ocean to the north - we may have our own little sheltered nook of the world here. That would be pretty cool.

(9) 3640BC Mecca to size 2. I debate swapping to worker now, but if we do that now, we'll have a worker sitting around with nothing to do waiting for us to research Agriculture. Not cool. However, after crunching the numbers, I see that if we swap Mecca's second tile to the ivory on the river, we can time a build of warrior/worker to finish at the same time as researching Polytheism + Agriculture. Both to complete in 15 turns. Since the fastest possible way to increase growth is to get that worker out and farming the corn, I go ahead and make the swap. Mecca now due to grow in 11 turns, but we get the worker out 1 turn sooner and we pick up an extra commerce tile (from the river; go from 9 research to 10/turn).

I have no idea if this puts us ahead, but it was fun to think about.

(11) 3560BC Meet Bis in the south:

One of his scouts comes wandering by. Hmm... I haven't played against Bismarck too much, I'll have to look over his AI personality again. Still, we could have drawn a lot worse for a neighbor here. Industrious could be a problem, of course. Grab a hut with our scout, but all we get is experience. Oh well.

(12) 3520BC Scout defends against a wolf successfully between turns, uses the XP to promote to Woodsman II and keep on exploring. Mecca finishes warrior, starts worker (12 turns). Polytheism due in 2 turns, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I've also found Bismarck's capital, and man - he's quite close.

Yes, I could steal a worker here, but I'm not going to do that because the AI doesn't know how to defend against these kind of tricks. With this being Monarch, we should be able to win regardless, without exploiting the AI. Besides, this is a laidback game - at least, I hope it will be!

 

[Sullla]

(14) 3440BC Found Hinduism, yay!

The first part of our plan to culturally dominate the world has come to fruition. Since we are Spiritual and can swap at no penalty later on, I refrain from going to Hinduism. Only going to tick off Bis, after all. Now when we get Organized Religion civic a little later on - then it will be a different story. Start researching Agriculture, which will finish before the worker (8 versus 10). Oops, forgot the carryover for research - we had almost a full turn of it there. Guess I miscalculated, but at least it was in a good way.

(15) 3400BC Meet Caesar.

Hopefully we can get on his good side... That's a dangerous enemy. We're not going to have much room here, and we're almost certainly going to need nine cities to pull this off (for the cathedrals). Good thing there's nothing that says we have to be peaceful in this variant.

(17) 3320BC Scouting warrior ends turn next to a bear... well, at least we're on a forest tile. That gives him pretty good odds to live.

(18) 3280BC Nope, bear won at 30% odds. I have the worst imaginable luck against barb animals - not the actual barbs, just the animals. Maybe I'm not the one who should be playing these initial turns, hehe. Our scout is similarly healing from a mauling he took from a lion earlier. The lion attacked at 3.8% odds and came within one hit of killing our scout. Like I said, me and those animals...

(22) 3120BC Agriculture finishes, and I select Hunting for the next tech. That's because it's very cheap (5 turns), we have ivory at the capital to connect, AND having both prerequisites will drop the price of Animal Husbandry, which I plan to research next for our cows. Our worker is due in 2 turns.

(24) 3040BC Mecca finishes its worker and the borders expand from having a religion - very nice. Obviously the worker starts building a farm on the corn... I set the build to a second warrior (which we'll need as an escort for our first settler, at the very least), which I plan to time to finish at the same time we hit size 3. Hopefully I can get them to hit on the same turn, or at the very least close to that.

(27) 2920BC Hunting finished, on to Animal Husbandry (10 turns); researching Hunting first saved us 2 turns for having both pre-requisites.

(28) 2880BC Buddhism FIDL. I mistime the builds slightly, and our warrior will finish one turn before our growth to size 3. D'oh! Our scout is dodging lions and bears and wolves, but hasn't hit anything so far.

(29) 2840BC Warrior finished, I use our one freebie turn here before growth to put 3 shields into Stonehenge. I'm sure that will make a big difference. Feel free to send the warrior wherever you like; I'm moving him north to scout out a few unrevealed fog tiles up by the ocean. Worker heads to the ivory to build a camp, then should road the camp, road the corn, and head for the cows (should be at just about the right time to coincide with AH tech).

(30) 2800BC Mecca hits size 3, I start it on a settler, due in 13 (which will drop when we get the camp finished). This can of course be vetoed, since it's the first turn of the settler build, but I think we need to get some cities out there given the closeness of our neighbors.

 

[Sullla]

Here's the situation:

These are just some thoughts on possible city locations. I didn't see any that looked like total slam-dunks beyond the capital. Red dot has a lot of production, but is a little light on food and misses a rice resource. Yellow dot has lots of production too, and is on the coast; it would be a GREAT location if there's a food resource out in the ocean up there in the fog. No clear recommendations here, let's think about this a bit and decide where to put the second city. I do think it needs to be towards the AI civs though (to the west and not north or south - we can get those spots later).

There's room for some good cities, but we're going to have to be careful of the AI civs. As far as the tech path, I'm thinking we should go either Mining next, then Masonry/Monotheism, OR we go just Masonry/Monotheism if you fear losing Judaism to an AI. Ideally, we want to get Judaism to found in city #2, which will help propel it along its way to a cultural victory. One thing we could do is go with the "safe" religious path and have the worker build an early quarry on the stone, then use that to get Stonehenge in the capital. Obviously we want Mining tech with these hills around the capital, but that stone would at least give our worker something to do if we went the "safe" route. It's something we should discuss.

As far as city sites go, for a game without using the cultural slider, we actually want high PRODUCTION cities for our three legendary cities. We're going to want to build lots of wonders in each of them, and that means shields. Now we're also going to need at least one high-food location for a Great Artist farm, but it doesn't necessarily have to be one of the three Legendary ones. We'll have to play it by ear as we go, I think it's still too early to worry too much about this at the moment. Ice Age maps tend to have less food than normal (one of the reasons why I picked this one), so we're probably going to have to rely more on production for culture than Great People farms. Also fewer grassland tiles (and virtually no floodplains) for endless cottages, so science tends to be a little slower too, which should help.

Be careful! We're going to have to delay Archery for a while here, so we'll be a bit vulnerable early on. I'm sure everyone can handle it though. There are also barbs to the NE of our scout, so DON'T move in that direction.

I played 30 to start, Blake will play 20, Quack 15, then we're back to the regular 10 each after that. Good luck everyone.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/RB19-BC-2800.Civ4SavedGame

 

[Blake]

Okay, I'm Blake. Here I post (or actually, don't post ) as Grater (since someone stoled Blake).

So I've got the save.

Looking at the screenshot... that's some ugly terrain.

Playing now...

 

[Sirian]

I'm NEVER going to get the chance to play the northern start on this map, Sirian!

I'm sorry. The mechanism I used when designing the map got changed at the last minute (not by me), preventing player from choosing North or South. You always get put in the South, now, no matter what. (I thought you knew this.)

If I get the opportunity at some point, I will do something (official) about it. Short of that, I'm afraid it's out of my hands.


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

By the way, Ice Age will probably be even tougher than a southern start on Oasis. Go figure.

- Sirian

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

Subscribed!

@Sirian, time to change your signature, maybe?

 

[ChrTh]

lurker's comment: Hrm, and here I thought the "True Cultural Challenge" was winning a cultural victory with OCC?

Good luck guys! Question about tactics: you mentioned wanting 9 cities, is the expectation that all big 3 cities will have all 7 cathedrals?

 

[Qwack]

you mentioned wanting 9 cities, is the expectation that all big 3 cities will have all 7 cathedrals?

I think that pretty hard, since the odd's of spreading 5th, 6th, and 7th religions into cities is horridly low. 9 cities just so we can have 3 cathedrals per religion for all 3 of the cultural cities, since 3 temples for 1 cathedral means 9 for 3 cathedrals. I think it will depend on how many religions we can found moreso than how many we get from foreign countries, since if we do found 2 or 3 religions in this game, they will spread to all our new cities much faster than a foreign religion might get there. I think having 4 religions is good for a cultural, 5 is good also, 6 or 7 just doesnt make much of a difference in my eyes since you have to expend alot of extra missionaries.

 

[ChrTh]

lurker's comment:
Ok, if you don't expect to be able to build all 7 cathedrals, you don't actually need 9 cities.
Let's say you only expect to build 4. That means you need to have 36 temples total in your empire, so if you can get 6 religions spread, you only need 6 cities. If you can only get 5 spread, you'll need 7 cities (although 1 will need to get a 6th religion). And of course if you only can spread 4, you'll need the 9 cities
It's get easier if you only want to build 3: 27 temples is all you need, and that's easily done with 6-7 cities.

My point is: 9 cities is only necessary if you expect all 3 cultural cities to have the same cathedrals. But that doesn't have to be the case if you're not building 7.

I hope that made sense.

 

[Blake]

(30 2800BC) Okay... so nicely scouted out.... that really is godawful terrain, not nearly enough food. I find the warrior coming back to Mecca and put the fear of god into him!
"What the hell are you doing you lazy bum? Get back out there scouting that coast! And you better find some fish or you'll be sleeping with them!"
I am not a kindly warlor... Erm... High Priest!

(31 2760BC) Scout runs into a wolf... he's in forest.

(32 2720BC) Scout wins... takes 0.1 damage. Healing.

(33 2680BC) Worker ordered to haul ass over to the cows.

(34 2640BC) OH YES!

Warrior: "Please stop Mr High Priest! Please stop hugging me!"
High Priest Blake: "Uh sorry about that! Got a bit excited there! I christen thee "The Fishfinders!""
Warrior: "..."

The 2nd city is SO going there.

The scout is running from a bear, and spots a warrior.

(35 2600BC) A lion appears next to the scout... barbs in all directions... nowhere safe to run (there might be bears or warriors).

(36 2560BC) The Scout wins! Loses 0.3 health.


(37 2520BC) Fishfinder is startled by the appearance of these strange horse-type creatures!

Praise Allah! That is such a NICE city site! It's making me all tingly!
*The Fishfinders look nervous and are backing away slowly.

Completed AH, researching Masonry.

(38 2480BC) Nothing happened.
(39 2440BC) Scout has finished healing and moves to help scout out the path for the settler.

(40 2400BC) Scout reaches his perch to watch for any barbs with an eagle eye...
The cows at Mecca have been Pasteurized.

(41 2360BC) Settler complete, is sent off via the safest route to his destination. Build set to another worker (complete in 5).
Worker 1 is going to hook up the stone.

 

[Blake]

(42 2320BC) - (43 2280BC) Nothing happened.

(44 2240BC) - Medina Founded.

I figure it can't possibly hurt to build an Obelisk. If a scary barb attack appears it can switch to warrior...

(45 2200BC) - Masonry complete. Research set to Monotheism. Worker 1 starts on a stone quarry.

(46 2160BC) - Worker completes, start building road... ugh barb.

(47 2120BC) - Barb moves up against Scout's Perch... I move the scout and set Medina to Warrior in 4.. I don't think the barb will enter borders but no such thing as too safe.

(48 2080BC) - Barb moves away, the scout reclaims his perch. Medina back to Obelisk.

(49 2040BC) - Nothing happens.

(50 2000BC) - Judaism FIDL .

 

[Blake]

Okay here's the situation. I've got us a trade connection with Julius via the river, I suggest continuing building the road up to Medina.

The barb warrior is back to pester the scout, it is active and you'll have to decide what to do with it, I suggest moving away.

At the moment I'm building a barracks in Mecca, you can switch to something else if you want. Unfortunately losing Judaism means it'll take longer for the borders of Medina to pop and the horses wont be hooked up for longer... possibly set medina to a plains forest to hurry the Obelisk along.

Here's the terrain: It's so horribly dry and there's going to be lots of barbs so I don't suggest sending out another settler yet... not until we have chariots or archers, or like 3 warriors to escort it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/RB19-BC-2000.Civ4SavedGame

edit: Probably change tech to something else too. Archery maybe? We'll need fishing too.

 

[Berrie]

I will lurk this one!

Good luck guys

 

[Garath]

Well, this is me checking in. Wasn't expecting to see two turnsets already!

That truly is a beauteous second city site. I wouldn't have bothered with the Obelisk, personally, but your decision was vindicated with the missing of Judaism, so it's good.

Obviously, with food bonuses that city should get onto Settler production as soon as humanly possible, there should be little need to build many if any more from the capital. That should then free the capital up, after maybe a little military, to get straight onto our real goal: Wonders. In the long term it may well be that Medina's three food bonuses produce far our best GP city, too, so we want to look for two more production sites at least. Someone with the game can have a look round for dots.

If we want to actually get Stonehenge, we should probably get started before long. We have Stone hooked up already, right? So we shouldn't *need* to chop anything for Stonehenge. It should be noted, though, that we do have a lot of forests around Mecca, including some at 3 from each city that can never be used, so we can afford to chop a few when necessary. For more expensive wonders, or for another settler quickly in between some, I guess.

I agree that we can afford to switch out to something like Fishing quickly for a bit, but we do want to get back to religious techs after Fishing and Archery, I suggest, this is Monarch and so the AIs will build the Oracle not *too* slowly if we slack off. Archery first, since the capital needs to build some defense before going a-wonder-hunting.

Garath

 

[Sullla]

The good news: we got a really good spot for our second city!

The bad news: we didn't get Judaism. Ah well, we don't actually have to found the religions (although it helps), just get them to spread into our land later on.

I understand that we need culture at Medina to get the horses hooked up (and thus the obelisk build), but we need to stop here and decide if we're going for Stonehenge or not. Obviously, that will decide whether we're going to build obelisks in our future cities or not. I would vote on grabbing Stonehenge, personally; it's 8 culture/turn, which will quickly double to 16, and we should be able to get it in less than 10 turns with stone, especially once we take Mining and start working those hills. (Is there agreement that we should probably swap to Mining tech now and research that ASAP?) Since we are going to need some more military (probably chariots) before we can send out a second city, I'd say now would be a good time to swap to Stonehenge. (We can build it in just 9 turns! )

Here's our current map. I think that we should definitely plant on red dot next; it grabs cows, wines, and ivory, reclaims a desert tile, and has two hills for good production. Not the greatest site in the world, but I don't see a lot better at the moment. If we take that location, yellow dot becomes our space-filler in the north. Rather poor terrain up there, but it does have a rice resource... and it would help seal off our borders too. Blue dot makes the best land of the southern land IMO, grabbing horses and deer, but I'm open to other suggestions too. White dots are fishing cities which we'll grab later on (we need more map info to decide which of the two white dots in the extreme south is better). We also need more scouts out there in the west too if possible! Maybe a chariot once we connect horses (?)

Quack is up playing 15 turns, and then we will be back to our permanent rotation of 10 turns each, with Compromise and then Garath.

 

[Sullla]

Cross-post with Garath. What tech do we want next, guys? Archery, Fishing, or Mining? Since we will soon be able to build chariots for military, I'd personally be inclined to go with Mining, then Fishing next, but I'd be interested in hearing what everyone else thinks. Would it be better to get Fishing first to get Medina started on workboats earlier, or Mining to get those hills into play at the capital?

 

[Garath]

I'm happy with Mining, I had neither registered that we didn't have it or remembered about Chariots, to be honest, I use them so rarely. So long as we can hold the horses connected against the barbarians with our somewhat pitiful military as it stands, that's definitely a good plan.

I strongly agree that we should go for Stonehenge, and now is the time since we have stone up already. Despite that we've put 5 of the 10 turns into it, we really might as well just forget about the Obelisk in Medina, therefore. Even another warrior would probably be of more purpose, or a Barracks if we can't think of anything better to do before Chariots are available. Shame it can't start on Work Boats yet, it needs to grow a few sizes before Settler duty ideally. Fishing definitely after Mining therefore, right?

Any more opinions?

Garath

 

[scottin]

Cross-post with Garath. What tech do we want next, guys? Archery, Fishing, or Mining? Since we will soon be able to build chariots for military, I'd personally be inclined to go with Mining, then Fishing next, but I'd be interested in hearing what everyone else thinks. Would it be better to get Fishing first to get Medina started on workboats earlier, or Mining to get those hills into play at the capital?

If you don't mind a lurker's comment, I would go with Mining. You are still 15+ turns from being able to work the fishes, and need mining now.

I would definitely go w/ Stonehenge. GP Points. Shrines. Mmmmm, Shrines.

No reason to forget about the obelisk either, tho. Built obelisks will double in culture, and I don't think SH-built ones will. After all, culture is what you want here, right?

Also, with regrards to blue dot, what would you say to a suggestion of moving it 1 tile SW. The difference is (I think. Hard to tell from the picture):
plains: -1
Grass/forest:-2
Grass:-1
tundra/forest:+2
Tundra/hills/silver:1
tundra/river:1

Now, this may not ever be the world's best city, but it gains 3 resources (vs. 2), will pay for itself fairly quickly (w/ silver), and keeps fresh water. Though it may need a couple of windmills to sustain it. Keep in mind, all of the pure tundra tiles can be farmed.

Edit: May want to also consider moving red 1N. Gains rice. 3 resources in 1 city. very nice. This would allow/force you to move yellow 2N. Lose rice, gain coast & fishes

BTW, enjoying this so far. It is always interesting to see what the experts do differently at the beginning of the game.

Stephen