RB25 - The Golden Five

[T-hawk]

Well, most of the GP work was done by all the wonders in Cornelia and Venice. We only really got one GP by forcing specialists, the Prophet from Straussburg. Hiring specialists helped tip the GP odds in Cornelia in the direction we needed, but the random number generator could just as easily have bitten us instead with two surplus Scientists or Artists. The two Engineers really were more lucky than skillful.

 

[Sullla]

OK, I'm up and will play later today. Let's see if we can get the game moving forward again.

 

[Sullla]

(0) 1800AD OK, we're at a nice round number here in terms of the date. With our final Great Person in the bag, we've also just about finished up our Golden Ages target for the game and can get down to thinking about how to win. I asked our team members what their thoughts were on victory, and the responses were:

mucco: War with Mansa! "If we burn down the best Malinese cities, then we'll be able to win how we want. But leaving Mansa in peace would be almost suicidal."

T-Hawk: Space victory! "I would prefer to ride out a leisurely space victory -- if the team thinks that we can actually stay ahead of Mansa for the duration."

Gusto: Cultural or Diplo! "Personally, I’m more in favor of a Cultural or Diplomatic victory because we can still use specialists and GPeople; and using specialists and GPeople is the main focus in this game."

Well that was profoundly NOT helpful. Since there's no clear consensus from the team, I'll just have to examine the save, determine what I think is the best plan of action, and then pull "executive privilege" to begin heading down one path or another. Let's see... Currently, at 100% science we make 884 beakers/turn. We're researching Steam Power (which Mansa already has) and have just discovered Scientific Method. The good news is that Mansa's not particularly close to a space win right now. The bad news is that neither are we, and I can't see us being able to out-research him under the current conditions. We're not going to have much luck piggy-backing off of Caesar or Isabella's research efforts, and if it comes down to us versus Mansa... well, those don't look like good odds! Here's the GNP graph:

So what's the case for war then? Unfortunately, Mansa is far and away the most powerful civ in this game. His soldier count stands at 2800 to our 735. That's almost 4:1 odds - not good. I'm sure that we could fight and win a war against Mansa (the AI being the AI and all), but do we really want or need to go down that path? Mansa's Friendly, and he's not going to attack us. We're also heavily dependent on his resources... so if at all possible, I'd prefer to stay on his good side. What does that leave us with?

Diplo victory is not going to happen. We'll win the Secretary-General election, but we won't have enough votes to win the diplo victory. Mansa will certainly be the opponent, and there's no way we're going to get Isabella's vote. Our five cities plus Caesar will certainly not be enough to win (and we're not exactly on great terms with Caesar right now either). Domination victory is completely impossible. That leaves Culture as the victory condition I'm being drawn to the most. Yeah, cultural - the victory condition I like the least. But I have to go with whatever I think gives us the best chance to win, and I believe that that's the cultural victory.

So from our Golden Five, which cities become the Legendary Three? Cornelia already has over 16k culture, so that's a no-brainer. The other two cities have basically already been determined by the city improvements we've built. T-hawk's late city of Lillehammer has the Hermitage (+100% culture) national wonder and about a million cottages, so it's perfect for one of the three. And Straussburg has already built a Hindu cathedral and is halfway done a Jewish one, so it's got to be the third city. With the river that runs through the city, it will be a good spot for some additional cottages too.

The big problem: we have only two religions! And with only five cities, we can only build one cathedral for each religion - both of which are going in Straussburg. That's emphatically not good, but I don't see any other way around our situation. We're going to have to try and generate some Artists from our other cities for Culture Bombs, that's all I can say!

Anyway, with that in mind, let's see what I can do to reconfigure our civ for culture. First step is to revolt from Bureaucracy to Free Speech for the cultural boost. I grab our workers that are uselessly chopping forests in the northern tundra and send them south - I've got work for them to do. We need lots more cottages at Cornelia and Straussburg. I drop Venice's Research build and tell it to build rifles so we'll have some actual defense in case of attack. Tuscany will do the same once it finishes its current build. I replace Scientist specialists with Artists where appropriate in our cities.

(1) 1802AD Turn culture up to 100%. I have to say, with so few cathedrals on hand, this is going to be a race to the finish against Mansa. We're really going to have to work to get our cities over the goal line before he can launch... Cornelia looks good (507 culture/turn) but Lillehammer (315/turn) and Straussburg (260/turn) are less so. We'll be able to increase both of their totals, but it's going to take some elbow grease with cottages... At least Globe Theatre can still go in one of the cities. We can also go after Broadway potentially, but that would require turning on research, of course...

(2/3) 1804-1806AD Not much. Hit enter.

(4) 1808AD We're running out of money, so I sell Education to Caesar for Theology and 340g. That will allow us to go at 100% for quite some time to come.

 

[Sullla]

(6) 1812AD Venice hits 5000 culture and expands borders. Straussburg will pop our long-awaited Great Prophet next turn, so I go ahead and trigger a golden age this turn to avoid getting confused with the Great People (well, that and the GA will help speed along construction of a cathedral in Straussburg and Globe Theatre in Lillehammer!)

(7) 1814AD Straussburg hits 5000 culture AND pops our desired Great Prophet!

In other words, a good turn. I can finally fire all those Prophet specialists and re-configure the city for max commerce now - lots of cottages going to be going down at Straussburg! (Btw, do NOT swap away from Emancipation for Caste System. We need it to grow these cottages for the time being!) Elsewhere, we produce some rifles, which I use to replace some of our longbows.

By the way, I don't know why all our Great People are right up on the border at Lillehammer. I move them back to Cornelia for safekeeping.

(8) 1816AD Straussburg finishes Jewish cathedral, starts Wall Street. We're up to 375 culture/turn there now, and looking to be in much better shape. Granted, some of that is boosted GA commerce - but we'll be MUCH higher than that once we get some more towns up and running. Lillehammer is the city that will probably lag in culture the most, which is why I'm putting Globe Theatre in there. By the way - speak of the devil, Lillehammer also hit 5000 culture this turn. That culture slider's powerful stuff!

(9) 1818AD Not too much.

(10) 1820AD Mansa adopts Free Religion this turn, but fortunately he still remains Friendly with us. We're free to go there ourselves if desired (now that we don't need Pacifism for extra Great People), but I don't see it being worth the turn of anarchy. Lots of notes to follow.

First of all, Cornelia:

This city is pretty much set up the way we want it to be. I replaced four different farms with cottages, since that's what we need. The Great Person aspect of this game is largely over now. We could potentially replace some of the mines with windmills for extra commerce, but at this point I don't think it's worth it. Building a wonder now just for additional culture.

Here's Straussburg, which is doing quite well for itself at almost 400 culture/turn. (At the current pace, it will take about 110 more turns to win, but we should be able to improve upon that as cottages mature into towns.) Both of the remaining lumbermills should be turned into cottages, and then AFTER Straussburg grows to size 20, THEN replace the grassland farms with cottages too. We want to wait for size 20 so that all of the city's tiles can get into play - the water tiles will kick in some extra commerce too!

Finally Lillehammer. This city just gained cultural control of the unimproved hill tile on this particular turn; I suggest building a windmill on it. Actually - scratch that. You can build cottages on grassland hills, so build a cottage there, and build ANOTHER cottage on the other grassland hill tile! (the one where I placed a windmill earlier because I forgot about that). Then we can bulldoze the grassland lumbermills you see above for cottages, and we can even replace one of the IVORY camps with a cottage too! In other words, we can end up with 16 or 17 cottages here down the road - that's a LOT of culture once they all become towns! So stick with Emancipation, build those cottages, and watch our culture skyrocket. I'm confident now that we can get our three cities to Legendary before Mansa can launch. An AI civ having to research EVERYTHING at 1st civ costs, with no help from the player? Yeah, that's going to take a while.

 

[Sullla]

Map:

Sullla
mucco <<< UP NOW
T-Hawk <<< on deck
Gusto (permanent skip ATM)
Strauss

Good luck mucco, keep us on track.

 

[mucco]

All right. *yawn* Not that I'm playing right now... I need to sleep!

Of course, I need the save too. Is it hidden somewhere and I don't see it, or was just forgot? I could play 10 civ turns now, if I had the save...

*opens the 1800 AD save and starts to play 20 turns, declaring on Mansa right away*



EDIT: question about religious civic: as we aren't getting the diplo boost with mansa anymore, and there's no more need of great people, could it be a good idea to swap to freedom of religion? So we can maybe get OB with Caesar and Isabella (missionaries).

 

[Sullla]

Ah yes, I knew I forgot to do something!

Been over a year now since I forgot to include the save file, but it does still happen occasionally.

 

[T-hawk]

OK, I can be on board with a cultural win as well. As long as my city is one of those getting the Legendary honor.

Is it really that easy to flip the switch and go for a cultural win out of nowhere like that? Only 100ish turns until victory? With only the two religions and little hope of getting any more? And does Straussburg really have more cultural potential than Venice which had the two early wonders?

We might want to research at least up to Rifling to secure the borders. We have nothing to fear from Mansa ever, but Isabella is still mad at us, and Rome might someday manage a naval sneak attack capable of blitzing a city.

 

[T-hawk]

And regarding the Hagia Sophia, two points:

1. Why Cornelia? It's already WAY WAY WAY overshooting on culture. Give it to somebody else, probably Lillehammer.

2. Doesn't it expire and become unbuildable the moment we get Steam Power? Change research to something else until we finish it.

 

[Gusto]

Thanks everyone for your well wishes. I really appreciate it.

I lost my relative in the hosipal so three past away. Life is screwy. I don't understand why some things happen.

Anyway please include me in the turn set. I need something to distract my attention away from what happened. However the funeral is this weekend (Sunday/Monday) so I'll not be available these days.

We can build two cathedrals because two temples, not three, allow construction of one cathedral. Both Cornelia and Straussburg have the Hindu Mandir. Straussburg has the Jewish Synagogue so we can build the second Jewish Synagogue in Lillehammer.

 

[zakalwe]

Well, if you want to be really spectacular, you should go for 5 legendary cities. Now that would go with the theme of this game. Of course, that would require some serious micromanaging, as you'd need the last three cities to go legendary on the same turn

Anyway, great game. I was a bit surprised how fast you were able to generate the requisite great people; I guess the Statue of Liberty turned out to be pretty unimportant after all (although certainly nice to have). Seems like this might still have been doable even if you upped the ante for instance by requiring all cities to have an academy as well. (Or maybe not; maybe this variant is actually very well-balanced).

 

[mucco]

Preflight check, the three selected cities are doing well, with Lillehammer at 380 cpt, and it's the weakest one. Tuscany and Venice are producing much less culture, due to the lack of cottages. Venice has got a lot of sea, but it just can't compare with a fully developed cottaged city, sadly for me Tuscany is even worse, as a production-oriented city it only has 210 cpt at 100% culture.

(0) There are a couple things I don't like. First of all, as T-Hawk said, steam power before the Hagia Sophia is not a good thing. Research swapped to physics. I'm going to leave the wonder there, as in Lillehammer (actually building the Globe in 4) and in Straussburg (currently on Wall Street, 17), it would take about 20 turns to complete. In my opinion, we'll just lose the wonder if we change the city now.

Then, about civics and diplomacy: we don't need the pacifism boost anymore, and since we'll be building a fair number of defence troops from now on, that is a weak choice IMO. On the other side, freedom of religion grants us one more culture point from the religion, and allows for some friendship with other civs. We're going to make use of the Wall Street right?

So, first action of my turn, I gift corn and silk to Izzy. When I'll swap to freedom of religion, with tech gifting we can make it to -1. Some trade plus could be critical for the OB. Then I dial up Mansa... He's giving us dye (which we won't need anymore) and banana (which we stole away from him culturally), for two happiness resources. Mansa's biggest city is size 14. I cancel those deals.

Sorry about that! It seems I'm cancelling deals left and right whenever I start a turn. Last time it was not a good move...

Umm, so, let's go.

(1) We have 20 million souls. Straussburg is microed, it wanted an engineer instead of a fisher . We're bleeding money like no one, and still building more military! *Tuscany is starting a grenadier*

(2) (3) Well...

(4) Lillehammer finishes the Globe, starts the Jewish Synagogue (argh). The fourth golden age ends, so I swap to freedom of religion! And dial up Izzy... Sell her Nationalism for 270 gold, and a +3 relationship. She's still -2 overall... we definitely need some trade plus with her.

(5) The government is re-established, and workers continue to work. In fact, I was about to chop down the two forests in Lillehammer, then luckily I realized the city needed that wood for health.

(6) ...

(7) W00t!

[IMG="http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/1354/izzy1xj2.jpg"]http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/1354/izzy1xj2.jpg[/IMG]

What more could I ask for? Of course I accept, and happily take the diplo bonus, which brings her to cautious level!

[IMG="http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/5002/izzy2xx4.jpg"]http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/5002/izzy2xx4.jpg[/IMG]

Of course, you had to see it coming... the boat with the missionaries has already started its journey.

(8) Hagia Sophia BIDL...

[IMG="http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/4861/nohsdk3.jpg"]http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/4861/nohsdk3.jpg[/IMG]

If I had started the last GA right when the fourth one stopped, we'd have built the wonder! The loss is converted into about 350g, however, so it's still very good. One group of workers cottages over a farm in Straussburg, blocking the irrigation chain which brought one more food to Venice.

[IMG="http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/8085/noirrigationga9.jpg"]http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/8085/noirrigationga9.jpg[/IMG]

I have to reduce the amount of scientists in Venice, but there's more culture in Straussburg now.

(9) The first converted city is Santiago.

(10) I convert Barcelona and Valencia, too. Caesar is piling up money in his wallet, we can gain a lot of money for culture selling him techs.

Here I finish, hoping to have stopped all go-to orders for the next player . The three legendaries fare well, with Cornelia flying away, while the other two cruise above 350 cpt outside of GAs. This is going to get better as the cottages improve. Watch out for starvation problems, as both Venice and Straussburg have 1 surplus food. Four missionaries are needed to convert the whole of Spain, by that time I hope Caesar will agree to open his borders again. He's pleased now, but wants to wait some more time... Remembers me of Cathy

Umm, consider cottaging over the iron mine in Straussburg? Also the ivory can be cottaged over, in Lillehammer. Also, pick steam power. I forgot to do it when we lost the Hagia Sophia .

Here's the save, have fun.

@ Zakalwe: that would be awesome, but I'm pretty sure it's impossible to achieve that this late in the game. Especially since the two rejected cities don't have nearly as much commerce potential as the three legendaries, so they will never catch up.

 

[LKendter]

lurker's comment:

Mucco, could you please crop your pictures. They were far to wide, and I was having a hard time reading your post.

 

[Sullla]

Am I the only one who would prefer to see us building some more modern defensive units, rather than constructing Wealth in Venice? We can disband the old longbows to save on unit upkeep if needed, but I would probably keep them around for emergency upgrades just in case. Overall, going to Free Religion looks like a good move. Just be careful that improving relations with Caesar/Isabella doesn't drop Mansa below Friendly!

Now you see why I was building Hagia Sophia in Cornelia, because I knew none of the other cities would be able to finish it before the AIs did. Oh well, no major loss there. T-Hawk is up, and I'm sure we're all very pleased to see Gusto back with us on deck.

 

[mucco]

Screenshot size? I thought 1024 width was little enough... I'll see what can I do. Sorry about that.

About wealth: it was a one-turn-build, as one missionary was about to convert a city, and I wanted to start rebuilding it as soon as possible. I could have put the hammers into a unit, yes, but I preferred to do so because I thought Venice would be busy building missionaries from that point on. I admit, I was quite worried by the money loss...

 

[LKendter]

Screenshot size? I thought 1024 width was little enough... I'll see what can I do. Sorry about that.

The computer I was on at work only goes up to 1024 wide. When you factor in the margins you should see where the problem happens.

 

[T-hawk]

I only run at 1024 resolution too. My monitor can do better but my eyes can't.

I'm up. I see it, but I won't have time to play until Sunday, so any comments are welcome before then.

 

[ruff_hi]

I typically crop / shrink mine to 860 wide for forum and 800 wide for my web site.

 

[sunrise089]

Screenshot size? I thought 1024 width was little enough... I'll see what can I do. Sorry about that.

You were being very nice to try to work with 1024x768, but as others have said, the forum borders add on to the image size. I would love 800 pixel wide shots or thereabouts if possible. Still, wide pics are better than none.

Sulla: I continue to try to understand the benefits of the diplo game you play, but can you or a teamate clue me in as to why a move that raises agressive Caesar and Issy to Cautious wouldn't be worth lowering peacefull Mansa to only Pleased?

 

[mucco]

Sulla: I continue to try to understand the benefits of the diplo game you play, but can you or a teamate clue me in as to why a move that raises agressive Caesar and Issy to Cautious wouldn't be worth lowering peacefull Mansa to only Pleased?

If a civ is friendly, the chance it will attack is zero. It's also much easier to sign a defensive pact, if we want. On the other side, Spain isn't a threat because it's been crippled by the early war, and Rome is overseas, and, as Blake would say, we all know how good the AI is at attacking another continent . Mansa is the only military threat at the moment, so it's a good thing to keep him above the "security line".