RBC16 - Sleeveless

[microbe]

Early: Running out of trading chances. I traded Steel to Aztecs for Espionage. No further trades possible, at that point. I started an irrigation campaign so our cities could max out. Carthage built Manhatten Project.

So we didn't get the 33gpt from Aztecs?

My take is to steal Atomic Theory. It's so much cheaper than buying or self-research. It could turn out ugly, but since we are so much behind, I think we have to take some risks otherwise AI will launch spaceship before we ever go to Modern Ages.

By the way, we could consider buying a tech with gpt from an AI, then steal on the same AI. So if it declares we get our gpt back.

Also, are we allowed to steal more than one techs at the same turn? Since it's not trade.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I think at think at this point, thievery is our best chance of catching up. Luckily, the diplomatic victory has been disabled.

We should also consider building the CIA in London to enhance our steal chances.

 

[Grimjack]

I really do not like to give the AIs more money to fuel their research. I will go along though. I want to see what happens with the game dynamics.

I also suspect it might be time to start building some military. If Manhattan project is built, spaceship parts are not long afterwards, and we might want to send 'inspectors' to 'inspect' and look for unsafe parts that might easily break at the Carthage capitol.

Grimjack

( I will likely play tonight. )

 

[Grimjack]

Rules question,

Would asking to leave be considered to 'Renege' on a deal intentionally ?

Grimjack

 

[Sir Bugsy]

IIRC, that is considered to be within the RBCiv rules so I think that is allowed here. The AI does it all the time so I don't think it would be having anything up our sleeves.

 

[microbe]

I am a fan of this, but I do think differently. Sirian has shot down basically everything I proposed which is arguably remotely connected to sleeves, and this one is more obvious (or destardly) than others (like building units and disbanding them). With this in mind I don't see why this should be allowed. (or why we shouldn't be allowed to build and disband)

 

[Justus II]

Rules question,

Would asking to leave be considered to 'Renege' on a deal intentionally ?

Grimjack

Just a lurker's $0.02, but I think it comes down to a question of intent. If you have an AI with units already in your territory, so you then sign a large gpt deal, and then try to force them out, with the 'intent' of getting something for nothing, that seems to me to be 'something up your sleeve.' It is allowable by the RB Civ rules, but IMHO, would qualify as dastardly, because you do not intend to honor your committment, you are scheming to get out of it.

However, if you have an ongoing trade deal with an AI, who later moves a stack into your lands, and refuses to leave, giving the 'leave or declare' order would be acceptable, IMHO. Obviously, this is Sirian's variant, but that's my take on it. Here's some relevant lines from the Epic Tactics page:

Honorable Diplomacy

The commitments invariably last for twenty turns, which is a game mechanic involving its own flaws and limitations. Peace treaties to end wars, for example, always include a twenty turn component, even though the description says "Will Last Until War is Redeclared." Trade deals for luxuries, rights of passage, or any deal involving resources or gold-per-turn, also last for twenty turns, or for at least twenty turns. The Honorable Diplomat and Trader meets with all his own commitments, and does not scheme behind the scenes to sabotage these deals.

Asking those without right of passage to depart your lands is also always honorable.

Dastardly Diplomacy

Setting up agreements in which you trade per-turn payments for durable goods (cash, techs, etc), then declare war to cancel the deals, getting something for almost nothing, is dastardly. The game is set up to handle this for trade deals, but not for peace treaties. For trade deals, this behavior is allowed.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

It is good to see that my recollection still works. I think we'll need our fearless caped leader to weigh in on this one.

 

[Sirian]

Let's not sucker the AI. I know it's tempting, but it is the type of trick we see all the time in Civ3. I would like to see how we do absent all such tricks.

Justus's analysis is very much in line with my rationale.

I spelled out two possible courses of action at the end of my report. There might be others, and it -would- be OK if China lands new forces on our continent to ask them to leave, payments or not. However, the AI is completely incapable of removing the forces there on its own initiative, as the AI has no routine for loading units outside of a city, so it would definitely be something up our sleeve to engage machinations to exploit that flaw.


- Sirian

 

[Grimjack]

Agree on the consensus of this. This is such a win/win situation. Either the chinese stack leaves, or the chinese stop accepting our payments.
I will refrain from making them feel unwelcome. If nothing unforeseen happens, expect to get the game back tonight.

Grimjack

 

[Grimjack]

RBC16, 1500AD, The word is: Either continue to improve our Economy, or try to snatch the last gasping delayed twofer.

I will go along with option twofer, mainly because I cannot even remember when/if I ever played this way. At this stage it is usually deny the AI any techs/money what so ever by any means possible in my normal games. It will be refreshing for me Too bad if you do not agree, because the buck was on me

So I fire up ye olde trading screen.

Korea would give us 10 gold and their world map for the secret of Steel. No thanks.

Hmm, Montezuma has 45 gpt and 60 gold, but wants Combustion, tempting, tempting. I need to check the other offers before deciding.
France is up Replaceable Parts, India is up Flight and RP,
Byzantine and Hannibal of the Carthaginians are up a lot, and should not be fed.
We can self research in 21 turns Atomic Theory.
We have 365 gpt income if we go full income, and steals looks like a promising pastime, but then we need be ready for one or more small wars.

Sorting our cities by shields is a depressing sight. We have one city doing more than 30 shields. We have three cities doing more than 10 shields !!!!.
Ooo, I missed one, Chinan makes 11 spt., o joy. I will keep Chinan in mind if I decide to try and rush a Stock market anywhere. It is building Cathederal now, and it is needed if we want the city to grow and earn money.

Having sold maps earlier, I manage to get Atomic Theory from China for 287 gpt and 3 gold.
Then I am sorely tempted to ask the Chinese to vacate our premises, but I will wait for one turn so I can get Flight first.
I feed the Aztecs Combustion. I can use the money better, and hopefully I can use Atomic Theory on them if they discover something interesting in the IBT.

IBT:
France wants 9 gpt for their Ivory now, and I fork up. Canterbury Rifle->Rifle,

1505AD I fortify the pollution crew, and hope you will remember to unfortify it if I forget to do it when my turns end. Worker action is heave with the remaining three workers……
Get Flight for Atomic Theory along with 100 gold and 3 gpt, and that’s Full price for India. Hope the French can pay me more, as I had hoped to regain most of the money paid for it.
The Chinese is putting a lot of pressure on Korea, and Korea is not expected to live long.
I rush the galleon in Warwick in case we would feel like poaching a bit.
There are some cities that even with 50% corruption would be high shield cities in our lands.

I instantly regret rushing the galleon, as I do not have any settlers, and I really should save up for a Stock market and 1000 gold.

I pause for a couple of hours here, while I wait on the verdict of my rules question.

IBT: Cirta complete Factory, and I start Bank. This size 3 city is our fourth best shield producer.
Warwick completes Galleon, and start another.
I get really nervous as Byzantines start Internet

1510 I get Coal and Replaceable Parts from France for Atomic Theory. Guess how much rubber we have … Yup, right we have none.
Closest Rubber is in Korea, but we would need to confiscate it to get our hands on it. On the world market, there are no rubber available at any price.

IBT: France comes up and offers Communism for Flight and some spare change. I make the deal. This could have broken the rule, but I am fairly certain not the spirit of the rule, as it was a deal the AI offered up.
Nottingham Guerilla->Ironclad,

1515 Nothing of any notice. Becoming more and more convinced I should rush a Stock market in Chinan, so we can start the Wall Street.

IBT: Intelligence agency complete. And I switch tiles for max food and start Artillery. There was no way for me to reach 70 spt, in which case I might have built Riflemen or Flaks.

1520 I partial rush the Stock market in Chinan by way of Cathedral.
India just got Mass Production. We can get 16 gpt from Aztecs for replaceable Parts, but I will wait unless I get close on trying to get Electronics. Electronics was expensive, so it better wait until we can steal it.
Best research I can get is 46 turns at 130 gpt cost.

IBT: Canterbury Guerilla->Guerilla, Saldae Barracks->Rifleman,

1525 Clean Pollution, twiddle cities, press next turn.

IBT Aztecs have managed to sign peace with most of the world. London Artillery->Galleon,Nottingham Clad->Guerilla, Cadiz Courthouse->Cathedral, We find a new source of Oil 

1530 Nada.

IBT: Aztecs and India sign MPP, London Galleon->Destroyer,
Aztecs declare on France, Carthage start Seti,

1535 Look for trade opportunities, and find only one. Get Mass Production from India for Our oil.

IBT: Canterbury Guerilla->Commercial Dock, Chinan Stock Exchange->Dock,

1540 Keep looking at the trade screen, hoping France will get Electronics. Nothing to show excepct a few coins for our new maps. ( I have been foresting/railing now while we have coal. )


IBT: London Dock->Wall Street Errrrr, I am missing a Stock Market somewhere, since I cannot build Wall Street. I build a battleship instead. Russaddir Library->Dock

1545 I rush the Bank in Hastings.

IBT: As if things are not bad enough, Byzans and Cartage sign an MPP. So much for getting them to fight one another.
Hasting Bank->Stock Exchange, Get an embarrassing civil disorder in Cadiz for some reason I missed the growth.

1550 Move our workers. Nothing visible on the trade board.
I think we are in deep trouble, and we need to stop Carthage and Byzantines in their tracks if we want to launch before they do.
However to manage that we will want access to rubber, and easiest way to get that would be to grab the Aztecs source.

Grimjack

 

[microbe]

Can we still grab some Korean towns? We have some rifles, so we don't even need to take towns if we don't want to. Just settle on the resources.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I have it. It will be this evening before I play, so about eight hours. Do we want to grab some Korean lands? Hopefully we can get a majority of the team to weigh in in the next eight hours or so.

 

[Sirian]

No consensus needed, Bugs. I've been largely hands-off the strategy during others' turns and don't intend to change now. If you something, you may hear about it, but even then it won't be in anger, only observation mode "for future reference". So... take some bold action for us. Whatever you think looks best.

Besides... if we lose the game, I'm blaming our humble terrain situation and kicking off Round Two on another map. Can't indict the variant when you get some near-legendary handicaps starting off. This was quite nearly an Epic Fourteen Dud Start (TM).


- Sirian

 

[LKendter]

This was quite nearly an Epic Fourteen Dud Start (TM).

I agree this was one of the ugliest starts I have seen. However, that start from DocT looks pretty insanse. I am not sure which is worse, but I am in no rush to try either of them!

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Get the word from Sirian, "no consult." Evaluate the situation and decide that a calculated risk is worth it.

Pre-flight – 1550 AD – This maybe Bugsy’s folly. We have a motley crew for a military, but we’re stronger than Korea. Plus Korea doesn’t have Rep Parts yet. We don’t have much in the way of offensive troops. Since I haven’t been at war in this game yet, I review the variant rules concerning war.

No razing, no abandoning, no excessive bombardment. Since we only have four transports (2 galleons, 2 galleys), I’ll bring a treb and an artillery piece on the initial landing.

So I load up a force of 2 guerillas, 5 rifles, a LB, a MDI, a treb and an arty. Fierce. I’ll land on the hill NE of Hyangsan (rubber town). We’ll probably be facing cavs on the counterattack.

Trading is ridiculously expensive. Motor Transport would cost us well over 43K, a safe steal is at 32K.

IBT – Canterbury: Dock=>DD

1. 1555 AD – Set up for an amphibious landing.

IBT – Korea replaces their razed city in the NE part of their island.
Nottingham: Airport=>dock

2. 1560 AD – Declare war. Make landing. We’ll face at least one cav. Rifles are defending the Rubber City.

IBT – Renew a silks deal with Theodora for spices, WM & 25G.
Our gems deal with Azteca expires. I sell them AT for gems, 30gpt, 95g & WM
The Korean counter is one cav attacking our stack and four cavs landing next to Newcastle.
London: BB=>DD

3. 1565 AD – We bombard and kill the only defender and Hyangsan joins the Republic. The city comes with a barracks, a market, a duct and a bank. I upgrade three rifles to infantry. Start a harbor.

Kill three of the four cavs outside Newcastle.

IBT – Kill the remaining cav outside Newcastle. Our new infantrymen kill three cavs at Hyangsan.
Cirta: Coal Plt=>rifle
Theodora builds SETI. We get a new crazy piece in Dizzy Lizzy’s house.

4. 1570 AD – Since resistance has ended in Hyangsan, I rush the harbor. Ugrade our remaining rifles, march on Ulsan.

We don’t have any spies. I plant on in Beijing for 86G, and fail to plant one in Seoul.

IBT – Kill a cav attacking Hyangsan.
London, Canterbury: DD=>DD
Hyangsan: harbor=>library

5. 1575 AD – Lose two guerillas taking Ulsan.

IBT – France and Azteca sign a peace treaty.
Nottingham: dock=>infantry
Rusaddir: Dock=>bank

6. 1580 AD – Naval artillery takes out all Korean strategic resources. Spend some cash on military upgrades, ferry some workers over to Hastings to build some rails.

IBT – Chinan: dock=>barracks
Monty declares war on France.

7. 1585 AD – Use artillery to wound each defender in Paegam. I think that’s as far as I’ll take it. The city falls without the loss of English life. Hurry Hyangsan’s library.

IBT – Lose a Guerilla to a cav
London: DD=>inf
Hyangsan: library=>Stock Ex

8. 1590 AD – Moving on to the next city, Cheju. Spend 72G planting a spy in Seoul. The Koreans military consists of 12 rifles, one H’wacha, one cav, and one musket. They have four cities remaining on the mainland. We can now get their offshore city in a peace deal.

IBT – France and India sign peace. Lose a MDI to the cav.
Canterbury: DD=>inf
Cirta: rifle=>bank

9. 1595 AD – Set up for Cheju.

IBT – Joan declares on Hannibal. Theodora declares on Joan.
London, Nottingham: inf=>inf

10. 1600 AD – Kill a LB. Kill the four defenders at Cheju, lose one infantryman in the process and capture the city.

After Action – The rest of Korea can be ours, unless they ask for peace. We have some nice cash flow right now. We can have enough for a steal in another turn or so.

SITREP:


Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/RBC16_-1600_AD.zip

 

[microbe]

This looks great. Maybe we can steal our way into launching the ship!

I got it and will play tomorrow.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

With +500gpt, we can make a safe steal every seven turns. We just need to be prepared for war when we fail. We are starting to have a fairly strong navy. In the event of a war, a navy may save our bacon, in the same way a navy has traditionally saved England.

 

[microbe]

preturn: London should be working on coastal tiles. This way we get 10gpt more and still 2-turn infantry.

Switch Warwick to bank in 30 turns.

We have an empty city - fix that.

IBT renew ivory deal by spices+13gpt+12g. Aztecs declare on Byzantines. China MA with Carthage against France. Carthage then declared on Aztecs. Might be the MPP.

(1)1605AD: Infantry kills Korean cav.

IBT India declares on Carthage and Byzantines. Our coal deal ended.

(2)1610AD: France asks Mass Production plus 240g for coal, and I have to say no.

I plant spies on Byzantines and Carthage successfully. I then successfully steal immeidately on Carthage and take Motorized Transportation. We FINALLY can build real offensive units (gurilla doesn't count).

By the way:
Carthage has 45 rifles, 42 TOW and bunch of boats and bombers. It doesn't have rubber.
Byzantine has 71 MI, 6 tanks, 15 TOW and bunch of boats and bombers as well.

WW is 19% and I have to hire two specialists.

Kill a rifle in Wonson.

(3)1615AD: Our infantry takes Wonson.

I decide to buy the coal from France by Mass Production+10gpt+5g.

(4)1620AD: Our first tank is built and airlifted.

I plant spy in Aztecs but fail on France.

(5)1625AD: IBT China declares on Carthage. We discover a new source of iron - it appears directly below Saldae.

(6)1630AD: Another immediate steal gives Electronics from Carthage. Both Carthage and Byzantine have the first tier techs, but China has only Rocketry and Fission. Next to steal is Computers.

IBT Korea and Byzantines MA vs India. Korea and Carthage MA vs France.

(7)1635AD: Movement.

IBT India and China MA vs France. Byzantines declare on China. Korea and Carthage MA vs China. France and Carthage make peace.

IBT I renew wines deal with India by oil (just noticed we have an extra source of oil now), and get 517g+37gpt extra. Wonsan desposed to Korea! We lost an infantry and an artillery.

(8)1640AD: capture back Wonsan. Tank kills two rifles in Seoul and promotes. Infantry kills another rifle and we capture Seoul. No improvements!

I switch Saldae to worker wasting 13 shields - should have done so earlier.

I again successfully steal Computers from Carthage.

I buy incense from China with spices+11gpt+10g.

Tank retreats from rifleman.

IBT Namp'o is bombarded by 5 bombers. Aztecs and Carthage make peace. Byzantine completes Internet.

(9)1645AD: We actually can sell Computers to China for Amphibious War+268gpt+547g, or buy Rocketry by Computers+WM+78g+536g. I decide on the latter. Byzantines and Carthage have Space Flight, and Byzantines have Miniaturilization.

Tank kills a rifle in Namp'o.

IBT Carthage declares on France. China uploads 10+ tanks next to Namp'o. France and Byzantines make peace. Carthage builds SS Thrusters.

(10)1650AD: We have to take Namp'o this turn, but we only have one healthy tank nearby which can only attack once. The tank kills 3hp rifle. A 2hp rifle shows. I take the risk and use 2hp elite tank to attack, and it kills the rifle and a redlined longbow, and we take the city. Korea is destroyed.

WW ends and lower lux to 0.

I just noticed we don't have wall street yet.

I rush bank in Coventry.

The worker from Saldae builds an airfield. Saldae starts a settler as there are spots that we could settle on that island.

I have a settler in Cheju that you could use, or merge back.

Bad news that I forgot to mention: we do not have Alluminum, nor is there any for sale. Byzantine doesn't have it either.

But we may consider get Amphibious War from India and build some marines and try to take it from Hangchow.

I've transported most of our workers to the Korean island for railroading, and we cannot keep up with the pollution at our homeland.

AI is still fighting a lot. Everyone is fighting 3 enemies in average, but Carthage is still Republic and Byzantines is still Democracy.

Carthage has completed 3 parts and are building 2. It's the only civ that is threatening us at this point. Maybe a dogpile of it or an amphibious attack at Carthage?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

That was some serious progress.