RBC8 - Revenge of the North Koreans (C3C Deity SG)

Nice job so far keeping us alive!! Good eye/good move on the extra army, btw! And a Pentagon to boot? That'll be a huge help. If you're not done, take your time, I still have another SG or two to finish anyway.

Charis
 
The early years:

We adjust things and declare war on the Mongols. We then establish an embassy with India and bring them into the fray. However, we don't have the money to establich an embassy with the Chinese. This might prove difficult.

The early war effort is mark by us losing a few pikes and a couple of knights, but we managed to inflict heavy damage on any Mongol troops coming into our territory. We get an embassy with the Chinese on the second turn, but they still want more money to go against the Mongols. For our part, we mainly build pikes to man the cities we have along the coast.

The middle years:
We finally manage to bring the Chinese in on our side and the Mongols pressure eases. The only touchy time came with them landing 4 Cav next to a city, Inch'on, that was defended by only one spear. Luckily, the fully healed knight army at St. Pete, was able to respond and take two of them out. A freshly built knight went into Pyongsong, also defended by a lone spear. Unfortunately the two Cav left managed to grab some workers but were then dispatched on the next turn. Meanwhile, the second knight army was dancing through Mongolia, disconnecting 3 luxes and resources galore.

The tide turns:
India broke our agreement, but this was good news. By signing peace with the Mongols we were able to bring them back in at a much cheaper price. Pre-backstab it was costing us 34 gpt for their alliance, post-backstab it was down to 21 gpt. We had been flirting with both sides of the ledger and doing funny bookwork to make things balance. This turned the Mongol units back towards India and allowed us to go on the offensive. Pikes builds gave over to Knight builds. The two pillaging knight armies were brought back to the Ulaanbaatar area to begin offensive operations. They took out three rifles and a longbow to raze the city. One then spend several turns sfely getting a settler into place to put up a new city. The Chinese break our alliance but this gives us enough gpt to get gunpowder from them. You would think that we would begin building muskets, but you would be wrong, There is no saltpeter within a mile of our borders. The Chinese then sign an MPP with Inia which brings them back in the war for free. With the new city settled I will hand things over.

You might want to checkt he cities, we got hit by WW and I didn't go back and adjust before I saved. I don't know how we will get saltpeter unless we can get it from someone in trade. Good luck, you have 9 turns left before peace we Mongolia is up. We can then take their side and do some damage to India. The are now top dog. We have four armies and could use more as they are our only viable units right now. We are building up knights so offense is still in the offing. I would like to see the Mongol capital fall before peace is made. The Trebs are ready to go, you should have no problems pounding it. It has been pillaged as well.
 
Nice work folks. Almost makes me sorry I had to drop. ;p

Probably a good thing I dropped, though. I do not seem to have the desire for anything C3C atm. I started but did not finish Epic 38, though I did have fun with your concept, Charis. :goodjob:

In other news, not to go OT too much, Smegged has played the first always war for GalCiv, and we will be starting up the first AW GalCiv SG sometime tomorrow.

Good luck--I will be here in the shadows pulling for ya! :hammer:
 
830 AD - Happiness looks good. It's been awhile... What happened to our rep with China? This is weird not having a decent map of our continent at this stage of the game... (I haven't played conquests enough...) IBT, Palace expansion. Not much happened during the first 30 years of my reign. In the 40th year, we assault Karakorum. We damage something like 4 riflemen with out trebuchets and take out four (more, uninjured! :eek: ) units with our knight armies. The Mongols have a ton of units in that city, there is almost no way we are going to be able to take it within the next couple of turns. IBT, we lose several pikemen in one of our cities to Mongolian cavalrymen and WW rises substantially.

In 890 AD, The Indians reneg on our military alliance against the Mongols again and decides to eliminate our ROP. Without Gandhi in the war anymore, we can't withstand the Mongol hordes... So, I decide to take out as many Mongolian units as possible and then make peace with them in 900 AD (there was no way I was going to be able to take out Karakorum...). Peace, education, and chemistry from the Mongols for 78 gpt. I also decide to renegotiate peace with the Chinese in order to be able to purchase a few more techs... Maybe they won't survive the Mongol hordes (they are the only ones still fighting them). Banking from the Chinese for 39 gpt and 255 gold. We really need to get back into this game... The Mongols appear to be lacking iron and horses, so, even though they are one of our main rivals, I decide to see what iron and horses might get us... Iron, horses, and 14 gpt to the Mongols for Saltpeter and Metallurgy. Then we purchase Ivory from the Mongols for 22 gpt. We begin building banks wherever possible. In 980 AD, the Indians begin US. It also appears that the Mongols are targeting them or Russia... (it looks to be Russia).

1020 AD, I'll end my turn here. Our incense deal with India expires this turn. Personally, I think we should cancel it (watch our happiness though...) and declare war on India, hopefully bringing in the Mongols as well (but this might be hard...). I have left a big stack of units by Shimoneski including a bunch of Hwatcha. Now would be a great time to trigger our GA... :hammer: But, I'll leave that decision up to the next leader ;). Our economy is doing substantially better with the a few banks and marketplaces coming online. Were it not for our tarnished reputation, we could probably start digging ourselves out of the tech hole we are in (another option for the next leader to consider is to renegotiate peace with the Indians for another couple of techs... But seeings as we'll be able to renegotiate peace with the Mongols in 8 turns, I think we should declare war on India instead and buy more techs off of Mongolia in 8 turns...)

Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/RBC8WK1020AD.zip

JMB
 
Ah, I'm up, excellent! (contrast with the RBC9 "Got it" :lol: )

Nice job, JMB, taking it right to Karakorum, even if we could not take it. Now that we're at Metallurgy I think we're going to see a big turnaround. I can only hope recent leaders have kept up with cat/treb production -- with a large army-guarded GA-powered H'watcha stack we should be able to *tear up* about anything that stands against us.

On overall strat - mind you this is without looking at map - I really dislike the idea of further fueling Mongol pulling out in the lead by giving them even more gpt. We lost Koreans-1 precisely because of an unwillingness to take on the 'monster' early enough to stop them, and picking on little nations because that seemed 'winnable'. If we can get Mil Tradition I'm not so concerned with being behind in tech. H'watcha are cheaper and better than artillery for us, and cav are more than enough offense for the next several hundred years. At some point very soon, we're going to need a very extended dogpile on Mongols.
The map and our city defenses may dictate otherwise short-term, but that's what I'm thinking right now. Our cities don't need to be defended to the hilt, just front-line cities better defended than our allies frontline cities.

Ancient North Korean proverb...

Two journalists in the jungle heard a ferocious lion racing toward them and one sat down and put on his running shoes.
"What on earth are you doing?! You can't possibly outrun that lion!" asked one man. The other replied,
"I don't need to outrun him, I just need to outrun YOU!" :hammer:
Charis <-- UP (Got it, give me a few days)
Speaker <-- On Deck
Skyfish
Meldor
JMB
 
India has pulled even and is most likely ahead of Mongolia at this time. We could get some furs if we take one of th enearest Indian cities.
 
If I understand correctly, Mongols also lack both Iron and Horses :eek:
That should make them easier to control...
 
Skyfish,

The Mongols WERE lacking iron and horses, but I traded them to the Mongols to help dig us out of the tech hole we were in and get us closer to cavalry. Hopefully, but the time our peace treaty with the Mongols is up (in 8 turns or so), he still won't have access to either and we can then take him on after we've made peace with India.

Our best trading partner at present appears to be China (that is, if we don't want to feed one of the superpowers...) and we will be able to renegotiate peace and some tech deals with them at the same time as our peace treaty with the Mongols elapses.

JMB
 
Yes thats what I meant, they lack it that is why we can trade it to them..and stop trading it if needed ;)

I am expecting a huge turn from Charis now during the great Golden Age of the H'watcha :D
Things will be totally different in 20 turns am sure, although we might lack cash for trebs upgrades...
 
The Empire of North Korea is looking about as good as it ever has in size and strength.
The only problem is that our foes are larger and stronger. Yet the Dragon, Wang Kong,
is not deterred. We're not at war, although some in the kingdom clamor for the
rumble to start again, vs India. But in an era where we have Knights and Muskets and they
have Cav and Rifles, even the bold Charis Kong is not overly eager for war. True
enough, his H'watcha are here, but he wants a *monster* stack of those and preferably
rails on which to move them. We're in Republic with 84 units, weak to Mongols and
India, and strong to China and Russia? How the Chinese dogs have fallen!? This is a
two superpower rumble, and the only thing worse is a one-power rumble, so our
TOP PRIORITY will be to keep a *balance* in power between Mongols and India, and
strengthen our position relative to them. China makes for a convenient trading partner
however, and keeping them around should be beneficial. Russia has but 2 cities, China too!
In 8 turns peace renewal will be needed or rejected with China and Mongols. If they
live that long we can buy some tech. In power, Mongols and India are almost even, slight
edge to Mongols, but 'score' edge to India. We're having to import saltpeter, not good.
At least we can build a few cheaper defenders for upgrade and/or MP. In fact, I see we
have some that's not hooked up, perhaps for that reason?

Our build queue is all infrastructure, which is much needed. This is good, says
the first advisor to Charis Kong, who highly recommends for the medium-term future
peace, building, up to factories and railing, then a *huge* military push including
a swap to a government more apporpriate for North Korea - communism. This push will
last up til just before Replaceable Parts, and should include a H'watcha stack to beat all
stacks. Looking at our current military... sheesh, did I say muskets? The diplomatic
advisor points out our national defense consists of 2 muskets and 18 pikes, vs cavalry.
And our offense vs rifles is 23 knights, 20 fireshooters, and a hefty 4 armies.
It would be the height of foolishness to go to war right now, he concludes. :wallbash:

The military advisor says it's the local concentration, not the national total, that
matters, and recommends a bold course of action (one which he says will still meet
the approval of our infrastructure advisor) - war can work if we use ONLY our armies,
and forsake military production, prehaps getting us a tech or two. It would need an
alliance as well. Hurt rep or not, I do *NOT* want to pay gpt to Mongols or Indians, as
that will just help them pull further away. :hammer:

So the military advisor says we must go to war, and now, vs India, while the domestic
advisor says that we have four weak frontier cities, and so guard each with one army.
We hold the line and build.

Who won the battle? The reign is already over but... which advisor won? And why?
 
The military advisor won the heart of the leader, for five good reasons:
- Limited window where our old armies which still pack a punch
- Shimonoseki has furs!
- A GA now is truly well timed
- I hope we're not THAT behind, but infantry will show up some day
- Our name is Wang Kong... not Wimp Chimp

In an uncharacteristic move, I'm going to highlight how the reign turned out, then
you can read the details. Basically...

- Charis Kong declared on the Indians, captured TWO cities, and razed a third.
- The Mongols were brought in and those two nations have lost a combined total of >100 units
- Our glorious H'watcha started a very nice Golden Age (just now complete)
- Pyongyang is working on a coal plant as we speak (!) Some nice trades, a few fateful
steals, and a Medicinal Slingshot got us 11 techs.
- Our econ is in great shape, our military is stronger than ever, with a new cav army
- We also have Communism, to give us hope for a bright future as North Koreans!

[0] 1020 - Charis Kong's true nature is revealed, as war is declared! The city has just
a rifle and spear defending, and is easily captured! :hammer:
One odd queue order is vetoed - St.P running 2 of 8 shields lacks a courthouse and is
working on marketplace - swapped to courthouse. A few other items are changed.

(Surely Wang JMB is a master of psychology!! If the four armies had not been
arrayed in that one mountain overlooking Shimonoseki, we would have stayed at peace.

Our large SOD garrisons the city and looks forward to a H'watcha counterattack!
IBT - China and Mongols come to peace (good). Mongol forces return West, to home.

[1] 1030 - Before they get too far, they're nicely right at the Indian border.
We ask about bringing them into the alliance vs India. For spices and 159g, they do!
This locks us into war for 20, but Wang Kong has no fear of this.

The rocket power displayed on a defensely purple jumbo is truly fearsome!
The smoke and arrows fill the sky, inspiring our people to a...



Income goes from +98gpt to +241. That'll help! If Russia is to be allowed to
live at our pleasure, they may as well help the tech situation. We gift them
Banking and Chemistry, showing for all to see the beneficence of the Wang!

We send an army south, and he finds workers on a mtn overlooking a lightly
defended city - what a nice little snack! (Chitagong)
IBT - 8 Mongol cav die and 4 Indian jumbos. :p

[2] 1040 - Chitagong has but a musket and spear, even though several rifles ran
PAST the city. It is now ours, and we have market out our future "Eastern border"
Envision our current empire, and extend it straight down. Flare right to these two
new cites of ours, flare left to make a smooth west boundary, and that is our future
boundary. It may take a while, of course.
IBT - More brutalization between Mongols and India - a glory to behold!
But... then they attack Chitagong? Our two army defenders hold off four - scary.

[3] 1050 - Defense. IBT - See mostly Indian units, not good, but Mongol counter
kills several including a settler.

[4] 1060 - One army at Chitagong heals, the other attacks. Along the way we
see an Indian *infantry* ( :eek: so soon??)

[5] 1070 - Yet another 3 rifles stomped by armies at Chitagong.

[6] 1080 - Quiet turn, less troops coming by, both directions. So our elites
enter the action in addition to the armies. First retreats vs rifles, second wins and...



Syngmann Rhee rides out of the dust. Gah, we have 19 cities, need one more.
The spot right between our two is good, except hard to defend right now, plus
there's a Russian settler next to it. We rush a settler. We get Astronomy from
China with almost 1K gold, made possible by saving up some nice GA income.
Peace treaty due up in 2, can we get Physics before that?
IBT - OMG, insanity... Russia declares war?! On the Mongols! That gets rid of
the settler problem :lol:

[7] 1090 - More infantry and guerilla showing up.

[8] 1100 - Infantry in small numbers are grist for the mill that is the H'watcha!
They truly enter thw maw of death on facing our lethal cannons! (One is now veteran?)
An army razes Sapporo, onve buried in the fog south of Chitagong. (Rifle and musket)
Chinese won't sell Physics. Hmmm, they can do nothing to us, so we just take it.
Time for peace treaty renweal, both China and Mongols. China does have the two
last required techs. It's 205gpt for those two + MilTrad, or just two for 138gpt.
MT is good but not THAT required (Steam is better right now). So we get Mag+ToG.

Was hoping for Nationalism, or Steam, but draw Medicine for free tech. Bah! Well,
what do others have? China has Steam but not Med... Mongols have Industrialization,
Electricity, Nationalism and... no Medicine?! Woo! India also lacks it, so it's a
true monopoly - Medicinal Slingshot! :lol: (btw, India will give us no tech for peace,
but will discount one by about 45gpt when time comes.) I'm not going to feed AI
research even if we're a few behind, so 3gpt for peace, no gpt for tech deals with
Mongols. I sell Med for Steam+1522g (to be used to steal Nationalism :p )
Med to China for Mil Tradition+32gpt. Careful steal works, and though Industry is
tempting, Nationalism is too expensive to buy, so we take that. Now we see Mongols
and Indians have Communism and Fascism. Hmm, what are they in? Both Fascism, woo!
Our odds have just gone up considerably! We have TWO coal, btw! 13 turns left on
alliance. At Shimenoseki and Chitagong we rush their libraries, to start rax next turn.

[9] 1110 - I look at the power graph. Mongols have gained considerably, and we have done
nicely too. Indians have been hammered pretty good. OTOH, Mongols only have Iron and
Horses by our sales, and India has infantry/Rep Parts/tech lead. We won't press further
on India, and will ride out the alliance.

IBT - As if on cue, BOTH India and Mongols each withdraw forces from the border.

[10] 1120 - Railin'
IBT - Russia and India embargo us. Mongols show up with infantry!

[11] 1130 - China and India ally against us. Oooh, I'm scared.
[12] 1140 - For someone wanted to build, the queue show a lot of rifles and cav...
We carefully steal Industrialization, a step closer to factories. On the plus
side, we would be quite happy to end war with India, reverse the alliance,
and lay down some smack on Mongols. I won't force it until alliance is over,
but with better rifle and H'watcha defenses, it seems worthwhile.
Several factories are queued up, which will time well with end of alliance.

M'anpo is founeded, making a solid border line of blue.
Now with 20 cities, leader forms an army and we fill it with cavalry :p
If Mongols want some... I think we'll be in a position to *RAZE Karakorum*

[13] 1150 - Consolidation.
IBT - India draws Russia into war with us, then begs for peace... how cowardly!
Before the turn even ends the Mongols have the distinct pleasure of wiping out
the Russians! :eek: (Hey, that was our job, but... so be it, in this rumble!)



[15] 1170 - Cash is ready to try again... and Electricity is ours. No one seems to be
building any wonders, and perhaps not factories, so good chances for ToE / Hoover?
[17] 1190 - Indian galleon seems on its way to back door.
[19] 1210 - Pyongyang finishes factory, hits 51spt. Starts coal plant.
When alliance ends, we'll pass off to next player.
IBT - India signs China against us, which means +138gpt windfall for us :p
That galleon near our coast just dropped off a single jumbo.

[20] 1220 - At the risk of sticking out a finger to get chopped off, there
is a decent city site next to wheat that with expansion should get incense,
so I move a settler to found there.

[21] 1230 - Should be last turn of alliance and of GA. Whatever else I must do, I
must do quickly. One thing I wanted to see was for us to get Communism, too expensive
to buy. So we try a careful steal, and make it. (What a handoff it would have been
otherwise, eh?)

Our GA is ending, and should be reported over IBT. New income is +245gpt (down from
about +431), which is still excellent. Seoul's new production is 25spt, Pyongyang's
is 33 (down from 51) I rushed a few small items, leaving 625g cash.

Notes...
- Settler is in position, but if you guys think that weakens the line too much,
get him outta there.
- Alliance with Mongols is up. If you want to make peace with Indians now,
cancel this. At present Gandhi won't give us much of anything. The 'discounted price'
of Corporation is 99gpt not even monopoly - not a great 'deal') Probably best is
what cash he can give us - 315g for now, less after alliance is over.
- So much pointy stick research - with foes much 'stronger' than you, to get something
you must really crush them. Big kill ratio and three cities was worth nuthin' 8-\
- Note the new power curve, we are increasingly nicely and steadily. Mongols got tougher
quick but India has stabilized with the arrival of infantry and may even be very slowly
turning around.
- Our war with India has gone so well due to the tiny exposed front, with one full army
defending each city plus two roaming armies, plus H'watcha! Do NOT expect a wide-front
vs Mongols with cav to go nearly as well. The nice thing at least is our rail net.
It needs work but is almost done, to be followed by city-area railing.
- I would avoif Rep Parts until we have a monster stack of Hwatcha. Even if that seems
suboptimal, it very strongly fits the theme of our game and I want to see what such
a stack can do. If our next leader or two really want infanty to defend the next war
vs Mongols, then make as many as Hwatcha now rather than later.
- Don't steal unless you're not miserable at a war declaration. I didn't "want" one,
but would have been 'ok' in switching alliance sides and fighting mongols. The benefit
of getting Steam and Industrial was worth it. The benefit of Corporation and Steel just
isn't as high.

Thoughts for what's next - many options!
-A- War with Mongols very soon?!?! Do nothing on alliance, but if he looks to stop it,
let it go. Cancel the ongoing iron+horse for saltpeter deal *now* (we've since hooked
up our own salt!) Let the Mongols deplete their supply of cav for next 7 turns,
then when peace expires, break the alliance, do NOT renew, and declare war. (Get troops
ready first to bear a charge on all front lines) Immediately take peace with India,
and get an alliance with them vs Mongols (can you do that as part of peace talks??)
After absorbing their charge, shift the armies over and raze Karakorum :p
-B- No war anytime soon - let all factories finish, start Suffrage and/or prebuild for
ToE (no one else is building *anything*), and crank out about 80 H'watcha's (I'm serious)
When war DOES come, whoever brings it will be in a WORLD of hurts.
-C- Continue war with India - let those two knuckleheads fight with each other for the
next century or two while we do nothing but build up - factories and H'watcha.
This is like the strat above, but you use an ongoing alliance with Mongols to keep
them out of war rather than letting them pick the time the next war starts. There's
almost no danger from the Indians in doing this, unless the Mongols start to rip them to
shreds, which would disturb the balance of power.
-D- Revolt!??! We could become Communists. I hope to do this, the only question is when.
I tend to think the results would be pleasant, as our support costs right now are
108gpt and I would think we'll want another 50-100 units if we have a huge Mongol
war ahead of us. This would fit best with plan 'C' above, or a partial C - let Indian
war continue for 7 turns while we're in anarchy, then see what to do about peace
with Mongols when we reemrge as Communists (I hope we don't draw 8! :p )

Here is the new map of Korea:



Charis
Speaker <-- UP
Skyfish <-- ON DECk
Meldor
JMB

RBC8 Save File 1230AD

Good luck, Speaker Kong!
Charis
 
Immediately take peace with India, and get an alliance with them vs Mongols (can you do that as part of peace talks??)

You can, but went India and Mongols sign peace it ends your peace treaty with India. :eek:
 
But Speaker, that's why they pay you the big bucks! :D

Rest assured if I spell out four paths and don't follow up with "and I would surely choose...." or "we can rule out..." then it's a tough call! Any one of those options 'could' work, depending on the events that come out of it. If we quietly stop the alliance but stay at and India and Mongols stay at war to a stalemate for 300 yrs then 'C' looks like a charm - we build up, they beat each other, and Mongols stay off our back. If they come to peace instantly we're caught between going neutral and hoping Mongols don't attack us (B), giving them first shot when they do, or going to war against them prematurely before we're ready (A).
Communism will increase our shields about 20-30%, but will probably cut net income 20-30%, and will take several turns of anarchy. (Of the paths mentioned it fits in best with C)

So any could be right, any could be wrong, it's up to your style really - build, attack, counterattack. The flexible start anyway is to let the alliance die (else locked in 20 more turns) and not take India peace yet but neither attack them at all. In any case, make your mark in history! :hammer:

Charis

PS@Lee - Of course! Thanks for reminding us (in fact in an old game I chided someone for doing that with a few civs at the same time and we got dogpiled because of it :p )
 
IT- Seoul switches from Library to Hwach'a, which can be built every other turn. I cancel our saltpeter deal with the Mongols since we now have our own source. They will give Dyes, Incense, Wines, and Silks for Iron, but I don't take the deal because I want to keep our options open re: war. Switch around a few cities. Once Factories are done we should be able to crank out tons of Hwach'a.

Found Kaesong where the settler is. I don't think it pushes the line any farther. It starts a library.

*enter*

Mongols bring up the Alliance and I decline to renew it at the moment. I may change my mind if the Mongols sign peace quickly.

1240AD (1): Start Scientific Method, due in 13 at -73gpt. On second thought, Seoul goes back to a library to help the research along.

IT- Indians hit the Mongol units in our land pretty hard, but don't touch our cities. They spawn a leader on defense but he is slaughtered.

1250AD (2): Pyong now has 44 spt with its coal plant and that will go up as I build more rails. Hwach'a bombard an Indian Infantry down to 1 hp and an Elite Knight kills him, but no leader. Indians have plopped a new city down below Chittagong and I raze it.

IT- No iron for Mongolia means no railroads, so their reinforcements take forever to reach the field.

1255AD (3): Mongols are blocking our rails in the east, so workers must take a detour to get back to our core.

IT- China declares war on the Mongols. :smoke:

1260AD (4): Ah, now I get what those stray units were doing in the road. Mongols have taken over our railroads and there's nothing I can do at the moment.

1265AD (5): A few roads have cleared, so workers return to the core and Pyong is now up to 48spt.

1270AD (6): Mongols have researched Scientific Method. This lets me drop the science rate to be due in 8 turns at 39gpt. That should leave us with ToE ready and minimal overflow.

IT- Chinese ship I've been watching for 6 turns drops off a regular spearman. :lol:

Mongols pull a leader in defense and are starting to withdraw their troops a bit. Does this mean they are coming for us?

1275AD (7): Spear upgrades our Cavalry to Elite. Peace treaty with the Mongols is now up and it's time for a major decision.

Conclusion- I may as well pass off here. I've had some fun with the Hwach'a and I want Skyfish to too. We have 24 of them, with 4 cities producing every other turn and another soon to join them. The Indians and Mongols are beating each other up, which is great, but I am a little concerned with recent Mongolian troop movement. Good Luck Skyfish with whatever course you choose.

FYI- We can now make per turn deals with the Mongols because they are at war with China--not that I'm telling you to.

Three-Horse Race
 
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