RBE DSG2 - It's a Small World After All

[Jaffa Tamarin]

Originally posted by smegged
Since RBE3 people want to get a moveon

Heh. Where did you hear that?

RBE3 doesn't have a game concept, a complete roster, or even its own thread yet. I think you're quite safe in assuming RBE2 will get started first

I guess I could go and start an RBE3 thread now though...

 

[smegged]

"free up the RBE3 team to head off to their game, and let everyone fit these things into their schedules."

I read Sirian's comment as "RBE3 people all want to start their game now. My mistake

 

[smegged]

Interestingly enough, it's my LOWEST scoring victory thus far (short of OCCs). But it qualifies me to play in one of these games.

 

[T-hawk]

Let's get started!

I just played the opening to Epic Twelve right before this (yeah, I decided to take a shot at that), so I'm doing this game with the experience of just having done a small-map Deity opening in the last two hours.

I agree with Sirian's suggestion to move one SE onto the tundra to found. The water turns out to be sea, so we can't irrigate the wines immediately. The worker moves onto the bonus grassland to the east. I'd rather be working that extra shield tile than the extra-trade wines tile right now.

Nobody said they minded when I suggested not using the Aztec city names. So, let's be not the Aztecs but their later conquerors. Madrid is founded in 3950 BC. Pottery and a jaguar are ordered up, then a second jag.

The first jag finds more wines and a bit of a jungle to the north. After the second jag is built, I order up a third.

3450, Madrid grows and lux tax to 10% of course. Our first jaguar discovers a lone Silks to the north, and our second, going west, discovers a vertical coastline.

After the third jag, I start a temple as the granary prebuild. Jag #3 gets restless, ignores his orders to police the town, and goes exploring northeast.

The worker moves over to the second bonus grassland square. I had a bout of and neglected to build a road on the wines tile on the way over to connect it (doh, sorry!)

In 3300 BC, Jag #3 sees a border across a narrow isthmus to the northeast. It's the Zulu and they're already streaming settlers our way!

Shaka has Bronze Working, Masonry, Pottery, and Mysticism, and we have nothing to trade him.

In 3150 BC, I get a jag on the isthmus, dastardly blocking any further Zulu incursions.

3000 BC: Pottery comes in, and King Thunderhawk retires so his council of advisors can plan the civilization's next move.

Madrid has 27 shields right now; it could build an archer, a temple, a barracks, or continue the granary. There's two Zulu warriors and that city in our area.

So, group, what do we do now? Build around Bapedi? Build AT Bapedi (found cities two squares away and whip out our cheap temples)? Attack and destroy it before it gets any Impi? (using my Law of Deity War: you only need to survive long enough until the other civ will talk. The Zulu can't get a force to our capital in the first six turns.)

I didn't dot-map because I don't know what our plan is

 

[T-hawk]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe2-3000bc.zip

 

[smegged]

It looks to me like we need some more map info. But I'd suggest that a war might be in order (call it the smegged curse, but around 3/4 of my most recent games have had early warfare). We probably need a good 4-6 units at the choke (to stave off attacks) and the same amount to take Bapedi. Don't forget that as Madrid grows, it will be producing more sheilds.

The other thing to think of is that we could place a new city near the choke (1 tile north of the forest doesn't look too bad). The only thing is that the city will be able to produce no more than 3 sheilds (without improvements) (unless we plant it within immediate range of the neutral wines, in which case it could produce a total of 4 sheilds (without improvements)).

Perhaps a good way to play would be to swap over to barracks (worked for me in horse feathers ) and then crank the jaggies until we have enough to take Bapedi and any reinforcements. The other option is to squeeze out one more city (my preferred), then have both cities cranking the jag warriors. Jags can defend against all but spear/archer combos and other fast units thanks to their good movement (you can take out archers/warriors that move within one tile, and spears would be useless against them.

So I suppose my vote would have to be a) put out another settler ASAP (immediately), then put both Madrid and our new city onto cranking jags (which are basically chariots for half price and don't require horses, which is definately a bonus). It WILL mean we waste our golden age, but when was the last time you triggered a well timed GA as the Aztecs .

-smegged

EDIT: having examined the map further, I've realised that the forests produce two sheilds. So placing a city right next to the wines would give us a grand total of 4 sheilds, while planting it in between the two forests will give us 5. A minor point, but it realistically translates to 50% more units.

 

[T-hawk]

It looks to me like we need some more map info.

There isn't any more land on our subcontinent - the northern and southern tips of our land are shown. And it's obvious where the Zulu capital is from the visible border.

We probably need a good 4-6 units at the choke (to stave off attacks) and the same amount to take Bapedi.

It will probably take 3-4 jaguars per impi that Bapedi gets. Remember that 1) the impi will promote as jags lose while attacking it, and 2) jags can't retreat from impi.

The other thing to think of is that we could place a new city near the choke (1 tile north of the forest doesn't look too bad).

I wish there was a hill anywhere near the choke to plant a city on, but there isn't. Still, we do have the cheap militaristic walls, so if we can somehow get Bronze Working and Masonry we'll be okay on defense. (There were no goody huts in our entire area!)

The only thing is that the city will be able to produce no more than 3 sheilds (without improvements) (unless we plant it within immediate range of the neutral wines, in which case it could produce a total of 4 sheilds (without improvements)).

You forgot corruption. That city will be lucky to make 2 shields.

Jags can defend against all but spear/archer combos and other fast units thanks to their good movement (you can take out archers/warriors that move within one tile, and spears would be useless against them.

Spears won't attack jags, but they can pillage which the jags will have to take losses to stop - and even more losses against Impi since they can't retreat.

when was the last time you triggered a well timed GA as the Aztecs .

Epic Five

Now that I've thought about it some more, I think we're better off proceeding without war. Attacking the Zulu will slow them - but at what cost to us? Bapedi can't be captured for a long time - it'll be auto-razed, since the AI will whip it down to size 1 if we get units near. We can't gain from the war unless we push all the way to capturing Zimbabwe, or get a Great Leader.

I would say to complete the granary and have Madrid build settler/jag pairs, build around Bapedi, treating it for dotmap purposes almost as one of our own, and once we've filled our land, then go to war, hopefully getting to capture both Bapedi and Zimbabwe. It'll almost have to be with archers, since there's a grand total of three tiles eligible for iron in our area.

What says the rest of the team?

 

[Sirian]

Sticky. I say it's a bit too soon to be warmaking. We'll have to deal with the Zulus, but perhaps they won't have all that much land on their side of the choke either.

- Sirian

 

[smegged]

Originally posted by T-hawk
It looks to me like we need some more map info.

There isn't any more land on our subcontinent - the northern and southern tips of our land are shown. And it's obvious where the Zulu capital is from the visible border.

We probably need a good 4-6 units at the choke (to stave off attacks) and the same amount to take Bapedi.

It will probably take 3-4 jaguars per impi that Bapedi gets. Remember that 1) the impi will promote as jags lose while attacking it, and 2) jags can't retreat from impi.

The other thing to think of is that we could place a new city near the choke (1 tile north of the forest doesn't look too bad).

I wish there was a hill anywhere near the choke to plant a city on, but there isn't. Still, we do have the cheap militaristic walls, so if we can somehow get Bronze Working and Masonry we'll be okay on defense. (There were no goody huts in our entire area!)

The only thing is that the city will be able to produce no more than 3 sheilds (without improvements) (unless we plant it within immediate range of the neutral wines, in which case it could produce a total of 4 sheilds (without improvements)).

You forgot corruption. That city will be lucky to make 2 shields.

Jags can defend against all but spear/archer combos and other fast units thanks to their good movement (you can take out archers/warriors that move within one tile, and spears would be useless against them.

Spears won't attack jags, but they can pillage which the jags will have to take losses to stop - and even more losses against Impi since they can't retreat.

when was the last time you triggered a well timed GA as the Aztecs .

Epic Five

Now that I've thought about it some more, I think we're better off proceeding without war. Attacking the Zulu will slow them - but at what cost to us? Bapedi can't be captured for a long time - it'll be auto-razed, since the AI will whip it down to size 1 if we get units near. We can't gain from the war unless we push all the way to capturing Zimbabwe, or get a Great Leader.

I would say to complete the granary and have Madrid build settler/jag pairs, build around Bapedi, treating it for dotmap purposes almost as one of our own, and once we've filled our land, then go to war, hopefully getting to capture both Bapedi and Zimbabwe. It'll almost have to be with archers, since there's a grand total of three tiles eligible for iron in our area.

What says the rest of the team?

Hey, I forgot about impis, but we won't have to deal with any impis (except for those built on our side of the choke). Cause the idea is that we'd blockade at the choke with a spear and a few jags. We wouldn't have to take Zimbabwe, but the idea would be to remove the Zulu presence from our side of the choke. I was talking more about limited war rather than trying to destroy the Zulu right from word go.

I'm glad the choice is not mine to make however .

EDIT: Oh, and the reason I said we'd need more map info is that I'd like to know how much land the Zulu are going to get on their side of the choke.

 

[Melanic Sheep]

I've seen the Zulu attacking with the impis on more then one occasion... I think the AI treats them like Riflemen/Infantry. I could be wrong however...

 

[T-hawk]

Hey, is somebody going to play? Zed, you're up

 

[Zed-F]

Yup, just got back from vacation yesterday. Installed and patched Civ this morning, so I hope to dl tonight. I will most likely post a got it post at that time.

 

[Zed-F]

Ok, got it. Will build a granary since with an arid start we need food above all else right now. Food -> growth -> expansion & production, so everything else can wait.

I agree we want war sooner rather than later. We've all seen the benefits of early warmongering -- take Epic 12 as one of many examples, where the best results were those obtained on the back of early aggression. I wouldn't sacrifice too much early growth for it, but we need lebensraum! Or at least we would if we were the Germans...

 

[Zed-F]

Ok, 10 turns go quickly at this stage of the game.

Well, let's see. I built a granary, that took 7 turns. Then I started a settler going, and that took the rest of my tenure. I also dispersed a couple of barb camps.

Madrid is up to size 3 and about to grow to 4 in 1, the settler is due in 2. We might be able to get the settler in 1 if we swap a tile around, don't recall. We are at 10% lux tax and will need to boost it for a turn if we can't get the settler out right away. We also dispersed a pair of barb camps so even though we are going break-even research on Bronze Working we have 63 gold. After this settler we need a bunch more military or Shaka will start getting ancy. We could do with another worker or 2 but if we wait and concentrate on expansion we might be able to capture some from Shaka.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe2-2550bc.zip

 

[smegged]

I've got it, but I'll be unable to do anything with it for another 24 hours.

EDIT: Oh, and could we have a dotmap?

DOUBLE EDIT: A proposal:

Top priority (IMO) is purple, which pulls in our only bonus grassland tile. It's also close to the cap which will make it a decent long term half city.

Next I think we should go for blue, as it's close the the capital and can pull in those early forests.

I also think that we need another city near the choke is high priority. The other two cities marked on the map are long term, and we WILL have gone to war with the Zulu by that stage. There is no question about that .

 

[Zed-F]

Can we fit 2 cities near the choke? I don't think we should worry too much about the cities near our cap being able to grow above 12. We have limited land at our disposal, especially limited arable land since there's no fresh water visible. I would think we want at least 2 cities down near yellow dot, but they ca definately wait since they won't be able to grow above 2 for quite some time.

For now, I think we only need to worry about settling 1 or 2 more cities before we start seriously thinking of war. We want to capture Bapedi at least quite soon since we need the arable land it's occupying. I would also think that if we can capture/raze the Zulu capital it will break them, and we can then polish them off at our convenience.

Another note: The Zulu are building the Oracle somewhere, didn't check where. If we act fast, we can catch them with their pants down.

 

[T-hawk]

I'd like to see a city blocking the choke - before we go to war. Unfortunately, we can't completely block it without the city having some cultural overlap from Zimbabwe, but that may be worthwhile anyway. The other possibility is to build five squares away from Zimbabwe, at the point where the choke is three tiles wide. That should block it enough that we can kill any units that try to pass. Either site would need walls and two or three spears before war, and the SW one would need a temple to fend off Zimbabwe's culture, but be a very powerful position once we do. And it also connects the seas for ships to sail later.

Bring purple dot in closer - it should be one north of that bonus grassland (not sure if that's where you actually have the dot without the gridlines.) One north of the BG gets it several grasslands to work once some forests are cleared (and every ten-shield forest clearing is another jaguar.)

In the north, I think founding one square south of your red dot and another right on the silks is a better plan, but that probably won't happen for a while.

Here's my proposal.

Blue question mark is another possibility to settle soon, before we go to war. It's got a lot of overlap, but redeems some wasted tiles (including the one 2 north of Madrid) and pulls in some more water.

 

[smegged]

The vile Zulu plague is infecting our land.

To the north you see our one man blockade of the zulu settler/warrior combo that I'm sure is heading for the silks. That's right, the zulu built a settler in Bapedi (and an impi for garrison) and is headed north to claim what is rightfully OURS.

In the south you see our warrior. You can also see our vet warrior garrisoning Tenochitlan. I had to bring him up to have *something* garrison that city, otherwise we'd be sneak attacked. In the couple of turns that the fog covered the land in the south a new barb encampment reared it's ugly head. I got a reg warrior down there ASAP, so that barbs WOULDN'T pop up there, but he was too slow. More embarrasingly, he was on a hill, and LOST to the conscript warrior that will (should) move into view next turn.

On the domestic front, I've been running deficit research, and because of that we have discovered Bronze working. I started us on Masonry, basically because it was the best option, giving us the ability to wall our cities (particularly if we have a choke city this would be good).

The zulu are building the Oracle in Zimbabwe, so war will need to be declared on them sooner rather than later (they will grow far too powerful if allowed to live, and are being weakened by their sheild investment into the Oracle). The bad news is that they have cattle in their city radius (I moved our warrior at the choke towards them one tile and then back towards us, thereby gathering information and not giving up our choke). Similar investigations of Bapedi revealed that there was an impi guarding the city.

I don't envy the next couple of people in the roster . They get the fun job of committing practical suicide (declaring war on a deity opponent in the ancient age - the only thing more stupid is doing so in the early middle ages).

Goodluck and Godspeed.

Incidentally, I have left all further city location choices up to the next leader . Except I've had the thought that building a fortress on the choke and piling it full of warriors/spears would be of similar effectiveness to planting a city there - and would allow us more flexibility in city placement).

-smegged

EDIT: I've had the further thought that we can't build fortresses until we get construction. Blah to my idea

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe2-2150bc.zip

 

[Sirian]

IT 2150BC: Changed Tenoch to worker.

2110BC: Madrid trains settler, starts barracks. Barb warrior moves into view, as smegged predicted. Our jag waves hello in passing. Sorry, no, can't stay to talk, I'm too busy heading to your camp to inflict the wrath of Sirian the First.

2070BC: One-unit-blockade of Zulu settler pair continues, slowing them somewhat. They are unable to move diagonally in the direction they want, so have to stairstep their way up the map. I cannot stop them without attacking, though, and we are not ready yet.

2030BC:

1990BC:

1950BC: Founded third city, starts jags. Second city trains worker, starts temple. Worker joins other worker, both head to a forest to chop it down and open more grasslands. Madrid builds barracks, starts settler.

1910BC: No more need for the choke blockade. There are no more lands to grab, except in the icy south, which we have in hand. If Zulus send a settler now, that will just be two free workers for us when the war breaks out.

You see, I just got done playing this "locked up on a peninsula on a cold small deity map" game in Epic 12. The absolute worst decision I made there was in not dashing through rival lands to explore past them. Well, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Our jags go bustin into Zulu land, and I use the time to pull our northern jag across Intome's border to uncorner them.

1870BC: Shaka complains. Yeah yeah, don't get your impis in a bundle, we won't be staying.

1750BC: Contact Egypt at Memphis. (Ooh a future ally to help us put the sqeeze on Shaka... once we have an embassy with her, to form alliances). Yep yep, learned my lessons well from Epic 12: MUST... EXPLORE... PAST... CHOKE...

Madrid trains settler, starts Jags (veteran). Oh wait. Hmm, on the small chance that the forest chop does NOT go to the second city as intended, I better put Madrid on Temple. We can't afford to waste ten shields. Once the forest chop is done next turn, then either way, next player can decide what if any changes in orders to make at Madrid.


* We have a jag on barb-prevention duty in the south. HE MUST REMAIN THERE.
* Our third city is building a jag, then needs to start temple and whip that temple to completion the turn it grows to size 2.
* Settler is on Goto to the purple dot, as shown below.

Orange Dot, plus purple, will lock out the AI's from wanting to settle anywhere else on our peninsula. So Purple then Orange is my recommended priority.

Red Dot could share lands with our second city at times, and then either keep on sharing, or cede them back and run as a fishing village, in the distant future. Red-Orange-Purple in combination makes best use of the land and sea down there, IMO.

Possibilities to run a denser build in the middle and north remain open, or we could leave it like this. The third city matches up well with Zimbabwe to avoid overlap with it, leaving the door open to potential peace with the Zulus once we have taken over their two cities on our side of the choke. That, plus it is also on the isthmus in a way that would work like the Panama Canal: our ships can cross through, they don't have to go around. AND that location also locks up all the land in the area to discourage any more Zulu settlers, freeing us up from having to block the choke to keep them out. If they want to come in now, LET THEM, just don't let them get past Madrid before we have both the purple and orange dots settled.

The purple dot might pull two shields per turn from a forest, and more with two forests. In that case, I recommend a barracks and use it to train extra troops. We're going to need it. If it only pulls one shield, then like our choke city, build a jag then whip a temple.

It is my view that we now want to wait for Writing to attack. We want to get Egypt on our side, which at the very least will distract Shaka a bit, and may provide other relief. They are jam packed and may even go to war without our asking, so it will all have to adjust as we go along. We want temples and barracks in our four core cities, though, plus walls, then troops and more troops. Or at least, that's my view at the moment. I sent one jag to explore eastward but who knows how much land (and how many AI's) are over there. Sending another is not out of the question.


RBE2 - Aztecs - 1750BC


Architect is up next, then back to T-hawk. Good luck.


- Sirian

 

[T-hawk]

When we go to war, Intombe is very likely to be auto-razed. If that happens, I'd recommend going with my red dots of two cities above Bapedi. I agree on your three southern dots; I can't believe there's no water food bonuses there anywhere.

Was there any sign of irrigation access over past Zimbabwe? That'd be pretty critical, with our amount of plains.

Thinking about a Forbidden Palace... Zimbabwe would probably make a good site if we can conquer it; if not, Bapedi would, with the option of moving the Palace elsewhere with a GL later.