RBE DSG2 - It's a Small World After All

[T-hawk]

We started Refining in the middle of my last turn, after finishing Nationalism with one scientist. There wasn't any particularly good option to put the lone scientist on at that time. We wouldn't have had time to get both Refining and Flight in 40 turns each anyway, so no loss really, or actually a gain since Flight is more expensive.

One thing about acquiring tech - stealing it rather than buying it means you don't place thousands of gold into the treasury of your rivals...

 

[Zed-F]

Do we think we're going to be able to afford to wait on Flight? Egypt does have bombers... and we could use mechs I'm sure.

 

[T-hawk]

BTW, I would say that our #1 priority now must be slowing Hi. And the best (only?) way to do that is to keep him at war with Cleo. If I were soloing this game, I'd probably sign MAs (MPPs if necessary due to availability or price) with Hi for as long as possible, until weariness crushes us (in Republic, not Democracy.) Just fighting defensively, unless we did manage to put together 15 or so tanks before she gets mechs.

And Zed's right; we're going to need air counterpower sooner rather than later. With no iron, we can't replace any bombed-out rails. Well, 40-turn research in the industrial age is not something you can expect to be able to do, and the faster we get into the modern age the faster we can start a scientist on Ecology or Fission. (If Hi flops into Communism, a 40-turn run on something like Nuclear Power might actually get it first. Or Recycling or Miniaturization of all things, since the AIs never research them; not spaceship techs but one will trade for two at 2nd-civ monopoly price.)

 

[Sim_One]

If you don't mind me asking, how do you plan to win this game? Diplomacy? Space race?

 

[Zed-F]

We're *hoping* for space race... though our chances of winning have been less than enviable from the get-go, and if we didn't have bad luck we'd have no luck at all so far... still, it's not over yet.

 

[Architect]

1675AD(0) - After much thinking I decide to play defensive at this point. Our spy reports paint a pretty bleak picture overall and we'll need a huge military to counter.

1680AD(1) - I notice america is in anarchy. Time to try and steal technology and succeed! I steal flight for 1320g!

I'm going to try again as we can do it one more time but this time I'm going to do it carefully, burning the remaining money and going below 1000g. I don't want to miss the anarchy period. I succeed again and we steal atomic theory for 1980g! In three turns we will be back over 1000gp so in reality its 2 techs for 1320+1980+150 or 3450g. We are now research electronics at 40 turns. I don't think we could have done it better any other way. I switch teno and tlat to airports so we can get some defenses against bombers. The iroqious complete the UN. Two egyptian battle ships and transports move into our artillery range...

1685AD(2) - We sink two egyptian battleships with no losses. America is still in anarchy. I start building fortresses on our rails that haven't been bombed or arent protected by a unit. Monty wants 40 gold and our territory map. I give in. The iroquois navy sinks the two transports.

1690AD(3) - The egyptians finally park more troops at our "checkpoint". Our elite longbowmen kills a 1hp tank losing 4 and producing no leader. America is in democracy now. That should be our anarchy target later for stealing more techs. We begin construction of our first fighter.

1695AD(4) - Madrid goes into disorder. I missed the war happiness leaving. I use scroll ahead and prevent Santigo from rioting too. We are back to 1235g. I hold off a few more turns to build up a bit more money before switching to researching Electronics. We get another shot at the egyptians but our longbowmen is not healed. I try to promote a conscript infantry and he dies... no impact to weariness.. I succeed with the second one getting a regular infantry. Now there is an elite tank. I have to try and take it. I lose another infantry in the process. I'm going to try and move 5 infantry and 10 artillery into the checkpoint hoping that disuades egypt from attacking in the open. We lose another infantry to a tank on the egyptian counterattack..

1700AD(5) Still no war weariness. Our first fighter is produced and I set him to air superiority. The Iroquois complete the Manhattan Project. I back our troops from the "checkpoint". Everyone is in the Modern era now too except us.

I will take the other 5 turns later. Gotta go take care of the kiddos for awhile but didn't want you guys to think I'd forgotten about ya.

 

[T-hawk]

Nice moves. I'm not actually sure if them being in anarchy matters for espionage - the editor gives no indication of that, just the known facts about "veteran" spies in communism and immune to propaganda in democracy.

 

[Architect]

1705AD(6) We are at 2065g. I start researching electronics at 7 turns at -122. The one scientist makes the difference between 7 and 8 turns something I've never seen at this point in a game.

1710AD(7) A tank and calvary land on our shores. Time to try for another promotion. No luck but our regular infantry promotes to veteren. We also sink another battleship and transport getting an elite battleship in the process. Still no WW. Well the seven turn thing didn't work so we drop to 7 turns at -58. I wonder if that is a bug. Iro complete the Seti Program.

1715AD(8) Very little action this turn. Iroquois cancel the MPP this turn. Our fighters shoot down 2 bombers.

1720AD(9) We sink 2 egyptian battleships and get an elite battleship in the process. We are now at -12 and Electronics in 5 turns.

1725AD(10) We intercept another bomber and our battleships make it back to port. All of our luxuries deal can be renogiated now. Might be someway to turn these into something. I'm building alot of infantry but these could be turned into bombers, fighters, etc. Once again, be careful venturing into the checkpoint. There are lots of egyptians units waiting to attack something in the open.

1725AD

 

[Architect]

T-Hawk,

I thought for sure government affected espionage success but your right nothing indicates so in the editor.

Honest truth is I've never been in a game where the best option for getting tech is to try and steal them. So I was shocked when the risky option worked to get flight. I assumed that had to be because of the anarchy but maybe its just we finally got some luck our way in this game.

 

[Zed-F]

Yndy was saying that Anarchy has only minimal espionage defense. I'm not sure where he got his info from, but perhaps it's true.

Electronics at 40 turns doesn't really help, but I don't suppose there's much else for our scientist to do ATM. I think we want to get to the modern age ASAP so we can start a 40-turn research project on something we don't actually need immediately, so we can get mechs, and so we can start building some nuke plants and ICBMs. Those might be critical later. Of course, we were probably going to do that anyway, so my saying we should do it ASAP isn't likely to change anything...

Is reasearching stuff actually cheaper than buying or stealing it at this point? Last I checked we could make over 400-450gpt going max cash, and I thought techs run about 2000 to buy or steal at this point. 8 turns at -50 seems like a lot for 1 tech, that's giving up about 4000 gold...

 

[Architect]

Zed, your right but I didn't want to try espionage against a Democracy or the communist Egyptians. Once again, my weed if it doesn't matter but I just don't have the experience here. All I know is I don't want to pay the AI for anymore tech. It is ~2600 to safely steal a tech last time I checked.

 

[T-hawk]

I'm up, right? Got it, playing now.

 

[T-hawk]

Inherited turn:

A deal with America is up for renewal. We change Wines for Ivory from us paying 2gpt to them paying 4gpt. Iroquois would never accept either an MPP or an alliance vs Egypt.

I think us actually doing research wasn't the best idea, but no sense in wasting the half-done Electronics; we'll finish that and then see how to go about getting MT and Radio.

I change a couple infantry to fighters; I want more, since any lost railroads are still irreplaceable. Heh - we can still produce Jaguar Warriors

I bomb the Egyptian tank at the choke, and really wish we had some cavs to pick it off safely. But saltpeter would cost 500 and we'll have our own tanks sometime soon...

(I) Iros want to renegotiate their Incense + Spices + 12/turn for our wines (I was content to leave it in place), and we renew it under the same terms

Egypt moves two tanks and a cav to the killing zone. I kill the tanks with infantry, and then notice that we have an elite longbow over in Bapedi.

(I) We shoot down two bombers.

1735 AD: I can buy Electronics for 360 instead of spending 500 to research it, done. Research shut off.

1745: OUCH - war weariness just jumped from 0 to 45%. Ack. We intercepted another bomber, and now bombard and kill two Egyptian battleships and one tank. We are one turn away from being able to buy Motorized Transport (1980 gold is "close" right now), or three turns to buy it without dipping into the principal.

20% luxury tax compensates, but at the cost of 120/turn income. Any opinions as to whether to make peace, before I continue? (I'm going out for a bit, will continue later tonight.)

We can make peace even-up but can't get any concessions. Iroquois and Egypt are still at war. Egypt just called offering peace last turn - I wonder if that means they also offered to Iroquois and got refused, meaning they'll stay at war at least a while longer. Iros are still in Democracy.

My initial leaning is to make peace - we more need to keep up with the Iros' economy than to slow Egypt now, and if we make peace Egypt will go harder after the Iros. But I'm open to any discussion...

 

[Sirian]

Make peace. If we want to be at war with anybody, it's the Iro's. Letting them bomb us a bit might collapse them, giving us a chance. Of course, that might also get us in over our heads, so I'm not saying to declare war on the Iro's immediately. But we've GOT to get them out of democracy one way or the other before too long, or they'll run away with the game.

And no, we do NOT want to do all our own research. Stealing techs safely is cheaper, and buying the last one or two in the industrial era may be the fastest way to get to the modern era.


As for the one who asked how we plan to win the game... well, we're doing our best, but frankly we don't care if we win. Or rather, we don't mind getting beat. The DSG's are about challenge, which we thrive on. If we do somehow pull it out, it will be a legendary game. And if not... well, it will still have been a worthy fight.


- Sirian

 

[Architect]

The only reason I wouldn't make peace is so you can steal techs from the Egyptians. If government type does not matter (Sirian, do you know???) then we can safely try and steal without risking anything but the life of our spy.

Getting caught stealling will probably result in war with America or Iroquois.

 

[Zed-F]

Again, though, we would prefer to be at war with the Iros than Egypt, espescially now that we have some planes with which to shoot down their bombers, and we can protect our rails with cutouts. I'd say make peace with Egypt, and if we need to steal tech from anyone it can be the Iros. I'd really like to know for sure what the deal is with spying vs. different government types, though.

Speaking of cutouts, it might be worthwhile to build a few of those Jags if we need more to keep our rails safe.

 

[T-hawk]

Egypt is in Communism; the "veteran spies" I'm pretty sure DO matter as far as stealing techs go.

How about this idea - Buy into the modern age so we can start a 40-turn, then save up about 10,000 gold. When we have enough to hit the Iros with about four or five tech steals in a row, do it, and be prepared for the mother of all wars (guaranteed to go nuclear...)

Playing again now.

 

[T-hawk]

Our story continued...

We make peace, no concessions by either side. One potentially very important detail - the advisor says "The Egyptians feel they are our scientific equals"! We may have another 2-for-1 tech brokering partner for at least a little bit in the Modern Age...

Making peace also means they can buy some wines. We get Furs + 8/turn and tell a bunch of clowns to collect money instead.


1752 AD: Umm, I just saw the Iro city of Chondote drop from size 16 to size 11. Does that mean.. could that mean... THE IROQUOIS WENT COMMUNIST! : (Let's celebrate with a Communist Party )

1754 AD: We buy Motorized Transportation for 2067 gold from America and start building tanks.

1756 AD: Global warming has been hitting us, some cities are in food shortage...

1758 AD: There's an _American_ transport/battleship pair between our continent and the Iros'. What is he up to?

1760 AD: I pass off yet again. We're three turns away from buying Radio without cutting into the principal, and that'll be the Modern Age. I'd recommend doing that rather than stealing it unless Abe is actually coming for war on us.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe2-aztecs-1760ad.zip

 

[Zed-F]

The Iros went commie? Ex-x-x-x-x-x-x-cellent! :jump:

Now maybe we can catch up!

BTW, got it.

 

[Zed-F]

Ok, here we go...

Interturn: Against the Iros, we need more navy, not more tanks. They are short on planes but have lots of ships. I'll swap after the current round completes.

Early turns: The Yanks keep moving their ships south, they could be heading for Cincinnati or they could be planning a sneak attack. Someone steals our military plans. I move some of our eastern cutouts to the south just in case. Turns out the Americans head to Cincinnati. I buy Radio from America for just under 3k gold and start on Ecology at lone scientist. Aztecs in the modern age look funny, we have become a nation of cattle ranchers! America and Egypt have Fission, the Iros also have Rocketry and Computers, but no-one has Ecology yet. Hopefully the Iros will keep pumping cash into their war effort...

Late turns: Amassing capital in case we want to steal tech from the Iros, or alternatively buy it from the Americans or Egyptians. Since the Iros are already in Communism and still at war with Egypt it's not purposeful to provoke them just yet. The Iros and Americans have all the first level modern techs, but the Egyptians now seem to be the ones falling a bit, though they do have Fission and Computers. If we need to do any tech buys, we should probably prop up the Egyptians a bit. Lots of naval battles, and the Iro navy seems much reduced, but otherwise no change in territory owned by anyone.

We are now LITERALLY Fortress Azteca, as every land tile we own has a fortress on it. The only thing left for our workers to do is clean up pollution and finish railbuilding if we ever buy iron again. Right now it doesn't seem worth it though. Our western shore is imprevious to non-amphibious invasion though a lot of that is cutouts. We are building infantry at a couple cities with odd numbers of spt to fill in the east again.

In short, a quiet turn.

A thought -- if we are not planning to make anyone mad at us in the near future, we should stop building up military as it's costing us a significant amount of gpt now. If we are going to provoke someone (like the Iros, or the Yanks to get them out of democracy) then of course we will take some losses and need to replace them.

Image:

Save file:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe2-aztecs-1780ad.zip