RBGC SG2 - In the Thick of It - TEAM G

Anybody know why the "IMG" button displays a hyperlink to the image instead of the image itself?

Your links have a space in front of the h. That would be my guess. Try editing out those spaces.


Why does it only take your morality up one if it would take you down ten by taking the juicy +42% PQ bonus?

Luck of the draw. Morality swings are based on the size of the benefit or penalty. Neutral choices are always break even. Good and Evil choices range from 1 to 10 per event, with some events having a choice that is always only worth 1, some that are always worth 10, but most with a variable range.

When planning for "must have" alignment, you can't rely on pulling the ten point jobbers, so we just have to keep plugging away. Eventually we'll get one, and one is all we need to qualify for victory. We can nickel and dime it the rest of the way if we must. On the up side, none of our planets took a major hit.


The AI's are stronger than I expected. I know I set the habitability to Occasional, but this looks like a Normal range. Luck of the draw there, too, I guess, but there's a silver lining. Since we're not in a runaway position, the game should be more fun. :)

switch spending to 35% military, 35% social, and 30% tech (to get Communication Theory in 1 month).

Although it may not make sense at first glance, when I start research in my own games, I run 100% science and dial the spending down to whatever is the minimum to get the tech in one turn. Yes, this leaves a surplus. Yes that is spending that could be going into military or social. However, after picking up Comm and UniTrans the research price goes up. I will hit them bang-bang-bang and be done with my initial research push in a short span of turns. Usually the savings from low spending on the cheaper techs goes right back out the window with deficit research on the more costly ones.

Then 100% spending to either military (freighters) or social (PQ boosters), then swap.

At the end of a given number of turns, the same spending ratios will balance out as dividing them up and putting some to each turn, but by doing 100% on one area, then rotating through which area gets the attention, we get some things done faster and start getting the benefits of them sooner. That may translate to speeding the production of the rest, or to securing other benefits sooner.

This is a way to gain a slight edge on growth curve. Over time, these little bits of gain can add up, though, as they can multiply one another in many cases, creating acceleration, not just velocity. Having the tech sooner may mean being able to put production spending to more beneficial projects. Can't build freighters until Trade is learned. Can't build habitats right after soil if Basic Enviro isn't known yet. Can't be building light military while freighters or early constructors are underway if both Deflectors and Phasers are not known.


I recommend we establish some serious trade soon. The freighter to the Drengins will arrive during my successor's turn, but we definitely need more.

I agree, but we haven't made it a priority, so it hasn't happened, and the clock is ticking. No worries. Plenty of cushion between what is possible and what we will need to win. I hope you guys enjoyed your first turn at an SG. :) Sorry for the little snags regarding the forum and the various procedures, but those will get ironed out and then it's all gravy from there.

For future reference, there is an image limit. I believe it is either eight or nine images per post, including both smilies and linked pictures. Thus, I broke my report into chunks. I should have mentioned that point, but I forgot. :) I recommend copying and pasting your post to a temporary text file, or AT LEAST to the Windows clipboard, before you press submit. This prudent move will save you all kinds of misery down the line, both from miscounting images and from net burps (including this busy forum server having too many people logged in at the moment).


Not much happening at the moment; it's going to be a long time before we can research one tech per turn again

With split spending, definitely.

I had my first Arrgh Moment when I read about you trading away Improved Environment. That's one of those minor-bonus, off the beaten path techs that the AI's never research early. I never trade it to them. Why hand them a 10% pop boost that runs free for the rest of the game? Whatever we get out of that, it's not worth what we're giving away. At least that is my perspective on that particular tech. I feel the same way about a couple of other techs the AI like to ignore, like optional repair techs and morale techs, and a few others. And I suppose I also keep them for a cushion, knowing the AI won't learn them on their own, since in a pinch they could be traded for something vital in a situation where you know you'll have one chance to cut a sweet deal.


Gladstone finishes its colony ship. This one looks like it's going to be either a deep-space explorer or a fill-in for the second planet at Petroni;

Eh? :hmm: Oh, I see. The split spending slowed the military production rate. I will have some adapting to do in my recommendations and hand-offs if spending will be split rather than focused for large chunks of the game.


(Money's down to 408bc and I like to have padding).

Spending into the red also lowers morale, so that's another reason to stay in the black. However, in my last dozen or so games, I've gotten away from my aversion to deficit spending. On huge and giant maps especially, where the 1k starting cash does not go as far, I've found it better to "go negative" during the 100% social push to build soil/habitat. All the way down to -500 even, with social spending at whatever rate will get me finished before I drop to -500. Then run NO SPENDING for a few turns, with the stronger economy (and higher income) in place, to get back into the black. This definitely beats staying in the black the whole way. Can't do this with split spending, though, and yes, during the push, if you needed cash to help sweeten a tech trade, you're just out of luck.

Medium maps this usually isn't necessary, because there are fewer planets and a shorter initial spending push building colony ships. Still, if we're sitting around without soil, habitat, and banking centers, we're losing income we could be bringing in.

I see our Drengin pals have already rush-bought a constructor.

Maybe not. The AI's get significant bonuses on higher difficulty. They are insane at Maso, but still quite strong at Crippling. They get free PQ boosts, which means more tax income, more production capacity, and a whole lot more spending power than you. They get free bonus picks on economy, which piles on to their PQ bonus to give them even more power. They get free morale, which means they can sit on 100% morale and keep their pop growth at MAX, but still bring in more than you, and they never "overlook" or "forget to check" taxes, so they have a morale lapse that slows pop growth in places for a couple of turns. At about 30 turns into the game, they could easily have built that constructor by hand. In fact, they probably built a pack of them. In Maso games, I often see lines of constructors, six or eight in a convoy toward a resource, by this point in the game.

Oh, and that "wasteful" Drengin starbase out in the middle of nowhere is probably a range extender. If they've got that, they may now be able to reach out all the way north to grab the military resource near Earth, as well as be able to send freighters PAST us to the civs behind us. Could get ugly. :lol:


Final note: January 2181 was skipped completely - we're now in February.

Sorry, that doesn't happen. If there are no ships on manual control, the game forces you to press next turn before it will advance. That, or you wake a ship and move it. If you do have any ships on manual control, the turn will cycle immediately after you move the last ship. If your computer is particularly fast and you have only one ship active, you may get only a very small pause between turns. You need to watch this more closely.

If the game reached February, it did so because you moved something in January. You are not supposed to do anything in January. December is your last turn. I realize this is new and it's an easy enough mistake to make, so don't sweat it, but please pay attention as each player is responsible for not stepping on the next player's toes with the handoff.


Overall I think we're in a good position. The Drengin are stronger than I hoped, but at least both good civs have four systems, and there isn't much pie left for the minors and the remaining majors to be dividing, so they are probably all bit players in this play.

Good luck to President Physicist, our next leader. :hammer:


- Sirian
 
I second Sirian's analysis. When I read through the reports, I made two mental "notes" on things to revise in the beginning of my turns: the reduction of spend rate (I usually leave it at 100% till the end of my first social push or till I hit -500bc, whatever happens first) and the equal distribution of money to the three branches (especially the 33% to social). From one of Sirian's earlier reports I have learned about the strength of concentrated spending on one branch and oscillation this concentrtated spending between the three branches (for myself, I called it "SOS" - Sirian's Oscillating Spending theory :) )).
Also, I would not have sold Improved Enviroment Control for the reasons Sirian discussed.

samurai_ben: Don't mind the "January" issue, I don't either. :)

Sirian: What about turning Autoturn off? Maybe this would help to reduce the risk of forgetting to check sliders and such stuff.

All of this is just meant as a friendly discussion. Overall, it looks like you guys did a very good job here and we are already in solid (but nevertheless challenging) position. What else could we have hoped for? :)


Concerning strategy during my turns, I think that it might be time to start some 100% social, to build some infrastructure and some wonders. I have to check the research and freighter/constructor situation before I decide about that.

If we have a chance to get this military resource, I will try to do so. I do not want to spend too much time on military anymore on this point, however. Maybe even spending part of our cash to rush a half-finished constructor? Probably not, but I don't know yet...

- Physicist
 
Wait a minute, have we decided about house rules concerning trading yet? Until now, we don't seem to have traded for money at all. Do we follow the Maso-style "cash only from Alex" rule? (Would be ok for me.) Sorry if I missed that point in an earlier post ...

- Physicist
 
What about turning Autoturn off? Maybe this would help to reduce the risk of forgetting to check sliders and such stuff.

Players can adjust preferences if they want to. They can always be changed again.

For a game like Civ3, where most of the gameplay involves micromanaging small details, giving the details a once-over every turn yields benefits. For GalCiv, I just don't see the benefit. You can adjust the sliders, but only once per turn. Whatever you set as your top priority, you can adjust the sliders to best match it. Everything else is along for the ride. If the governors are organized well, you don't even have to touch the social production except where you are doing something special, like wonders or cultural emphasis along a border. So it's only military production, and that may involve rubber stamping if you want the planet to build another of whatever just completed.

There is potential benefit to be had by poring over the diplomacy options every turn. How much is the right amount of attention to pay to that is up to each player. I do not check every turn. I do not check taxes every turn. I do not try to squeeze every available penny of savings out of every spending project. One has to do enough moves efficiently, or victory will not be had, but even on Maso, there's margin for error, room to let pennies sit on the sidewalk without bending over to pick them up.

It's easy to see when the month cycles. There IS a danger of losing track of how many ships are active, and moving to the next turn when you meant to do some slider management or diplomacy or other action. The autoturn works for me, and I find it to be such an asset that I encourage others to use it. I find that it helps to remind me constantly not to sweat the small stuff too much, that this game is won or lost on effective selection of priorities and tactics. I also find that it helps to keep me in a frame of mind of managing the game as a whole, rather than its various pieces. GalCiv is truly about macromanagement.

However, if the Autoturn just does not work for you (or any given player) don't force yourself. Next player can always turn it back on if they want it on.


As for strategy, at this point if we don't have at least six freighters in the field, we ought to, in my view. Send them all north, too, because it's probably already too late to send them toward the Drengin, other than the one already going that way. If we don't have impulse engines, we need to acquire them. It's been a long time since I played Crippling, but I remember enough to know not to poohpooh the risks. And we need some kind of military ship buildable -- defenders, battleaxes, star fighters. It doesn't really matter. None of them will be worth squat in a real fight, except to have a warm body on the planet that prevents sneak attacks by bold transports, or as raiders to harass enemy freighters and other soft targets. Battle Hammers are the first ship I value as sturdy war-worthy vessels. (I'm not a fan of frigates -- or death knights). The AI loves its frigates, and those eat battleaxes and smaller for a light snack.

I also wouldn't worry about trying to grab the military resource early, at least as far as the Drengin getting it. If they grab it, we either won't need it anyway (because we never go to war) or we can easily pound the base to dust, because it's in an indefensible position for them. That would be the FIRST move for us in any war: target their starbases. The only danger is if the Torians grab it and we do end up at war and the Drengin never do reach it (since it's behind some of our planets), and the Torians keep it all game. That could be bad.

We definitely should boost our economy. If it comes to war, we'll be doing 100% military spending for a good while (if we research, it would be to support the military effort). We need to be in position to afford it.


- Sirian


EDIT: About the trading aspect, I have not ruled it out for our team. Trade whatever you deem best. Certainly Team E has made it a rule and I believe we could live by it, but I haven't taken the option off the table. I didn't want to tie our hands if things turned really ugly, since "style points" won't count for much if we lose the game. :lol:
 
Report on the year 2181

Status of the Empire

The usual report handed to us at the first day in office:

RBGC2-g-2181feb1.jpg


I do not really like the last two messages...
And, some new faces: Nice to meet you!

RBGC2-g-2181feb2.jpg


The three majors we have already met:

RBGC2-g-2181feb3.jpg


Concerning Wonders, we are able to build Aphrotisiac, Diplo. Translators and Eco Capital.

Diplomacy check:

We know the Altarians, Drengin and Torians. All of them know Art. Gravity, Deflectors, Impulse Drive and Photons. Additionally they know:
Altarians: Nano-Metal Comp.
Drengin: Contr. Gravity, Phasers, Wpn. Theory
Torians: Contr. Gravity, Nano-Metal Comp, Wpn. Th.

Nice trading possibilities, basically, but we have no techs we could trade. :(

Now, the good news:
The Carinoids lack the Basic & Improved Envirom. and Ind. Theory. They know Artificial Gravity, Deflectors and Impulse Drive. There's no way to get Deflectors, but they are willing to sell Art. Grav. and Imp. Drive (important!) for Basic Enviroment. We take it.

RBGC2-g-2181feb4.jpg


Ms K. gets new orders (right hand in the picture), as I don't think we will need NewsNet and MedCenter on all planets, at least not early with high priority.

RBGC2-g-2181feb5.jpg


So, my strategy is the following:
* go 100% research Nano-Metal Comp. (Manuf. Capital). Trade for Phaser (Starfighters).
* go 100% military for 2-3 more freighters and maybe a few Starfighters (no more scouts, 3 are enough for a medium map). No more colony ships. Just a feeling, but I do not think we will find any more unsettled yellow stars. And we have two colony ships exploring which could handle those planets.
*go 100% social, then 100% social, and then maybe a little bit 100% social. :D ;)

(If I provide turns numbers, these are always the numbers the game tells me; you have to add +1 yourself.)

Problem: We won't finish any contructor in time. We might lose the military resource. :(
 
February

Business starts. As noted before, we trade with the Carinoids.

Freighter (Petroni) heads towards the Altarians Capital
Colony Ship (Tuban) heads towards PQ13 Andersona (in Torian Space).
Earth switched from Constructor to freighter.

Spent rate to 66%, 100% research, Interst. Ref. due in 0 turns. Income -77bc.
Taxes are at 31%, and our morale is already suffering (esp. at Earth). After long consideration, I decide not to drop taxes. We will anyway run out of money soon. Maybe this a mistake ...? We will see.

Off we go...


March

100% spending devided on M34%, R66%, Nano-M. C. due in 0 turn.
Interturn: N-M C. comes in.


April

We research Nano-Metal C. and start Adv. Diplomacy (as a placeholder).
Damn. Drengin already know N-M.C. :(
But we sell N-M. C. to the Carinoids for Shields and Phasers (& 40 Infl. points)
Toria: we sell Shields for Photons and 60 IP
Altaria: we sell Shields and Phasers for Contr. Grav. and 130IP.
We are now 1-2 techs behind the majors.

Spend rate 84%, 100% military

Interturn:

RBGC2-g-2181apr1.jpg



May

Spending 78%

Freighter heads North (towards Altaria)
In sector 0-1 (north of Toria, we discover Octavia, there is a PQ12). Our colony ship continues exploation.

"Mummy, guess who I met in the backyard?"

RBGC2-g-2181may1.jpg



June

Now we have a few ships: 6 freighters (+ 1 already connected), 2 starships, 1 BAxe. All military ships are send to Petroni (the system closest to our Drengin friends). No constructor, sorry guys. :( And we are 376bc in the red now. :(

Well, what should we do now? Ah, I think I already mentioned somewhere. 100% SOCIAL !!! Sorry, can't raise taxes yet, Earth is already at 52% morale. Tax 31%, Spending 55%, income -50bc.

Diplo: The Arceans are 6 techs behind (!) us, but there are no trade options except Deflectors (what they do not sell even if I wanted to buy). They own two systems. I decide not to send a freighter to them, as they are weak and behind the Drengin, so in case of a war with Drengin this route would fall first.

And take a look at this: near Vestia (PQ20) Research & Military resource, the latter owned by Drengin. On the long run, we might get those two, but on the short run? Well...

rbgc2-g-2181p.jpg


We settle Andersona, the PQ 13 in the Altarian Space, just in time for social build up. We get a minor event which results in - 6 % pop. Our morality is 57.

A report coming in:

RBGC2-g-2181ju2.jpg


Look at the military, tech and economic ratings. We are not *that* bad ...

July/August

OH WHAT ..... !!! WHAT IS THIS GAME DOING! :mad:

I just wanted to activate an autopilot Freighter (and I had a scout with moves left !), when the game suddently makes a turn and we jump to AUGUST!. Same as Ben reported in January.

Oh come on. I did not hit return or something like that. I swear that I did not touch the keynboard. Just activated that .... freighter with one left mouse click. That's not funny any more. (Autoturn was on btw)

I will eat that, will not reload, but ... Arrgl.

We reached exactly -500 bc and got the message that our spending stops (I actually wanted to avoid that). However, the Economy Screen say that we are still spending. Heh ???

OH WHAT ... !!! WE DID NOT GET ANY PRODUCTION FOR THIS TURN!!!

OK, let's think about it. In June, we went 100% social. It said 2 turns for Habitat Imp. at Earth and 3 turns in case of the next productive planets. Now look at this:

RBGC2-g-2181aug1.jpg


Note that we advanced only one turn in production, but advanced two turns in spending: -376 to -500 at something like -61bc per turn.

OK, I have to stop this analyis here, I have to go to work tomorrow and it is already late, so I will zip the saves, finish my turns and analyse tomorrow. I will post the save, so maybe one of you can have a look too. Maybe I am just too tired/stupid. The zip contains the current file and the two autosaves.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/rbgc2-g-2181Strange.zip

The report continues in the next post:

(edit: all pics should show now)
 
Back to the game: Torians are Warm, the rest still Neutral, Drengin researched Corevette tech.
Spending to 30%, +9bc per turn. We discoverMartiza, between the Drengin and the Arceans, a PQ14 (actually, we discovered it in July; this was the scout with turns left...). We might consider settling this; it's two sectors from Petroni, but there are no AI systems in this sector.

We pop a Shark from an anomaly.

Interturn: We have an election (and win).

October

As Habit. Imp. at Earth is completed, we adjust Taxes to 38%, spend rate 35%
A freighter from the Drengin empire arrives and brings in 5 bc.
The last player shows up:

RBGC2-g-2181oct1.jpg


Toast? Yea, whatever you say.

On the picture, please note our military rating. Gotta love those starfighters. :) Also note on the minimap that the Arcean starbase in sector 6-6 does *not* mine any resource.

OK, time for a diplo update: Yor have one system only and no techs to trade. Same as Arceans and Drengin, they are neutral to us. Altarians are warm, Torians friendly. We are more and more falling behind techwise, but I do not have any trade options.

November

Spending 45%. By an anomaly, we get a 25% knowledge gain about the tech we are researching.
UP assembles next month.

December

(edit: "December" title shifted to correct position)

I note that the date stays at Nov2181 until I open the planet list for the first time. Oh, whatever. (I did open the planet screen in June, and Aug, so the problem discussed above should be related to something else.)

We discover a morale resource owned by Toria.

RBGC2-g-2181dec1.jpg


A freighter from the Carinoids connects (7bc).
The UP assembles: Oh, it was clear that I would get THAT one. I never know what to do here. OK, I make my standard (greedy) choice, but it does not really matter.

RBGC2-g-2181dec2.jpg


A final screenshot.

RBGC2-g-2182jan_physicist.jpg


My summary and final comments to Sirian:

*Sirian: I forgot to adjust taxes and spending in December. :smoke: I am sorry for that. Both sliders have to be adjusted (raised) as our pop is growing notably now. Also, the autopilot order (an old one) for the scout in Yor space is stupid, I saw that only after the game was saved and zipped, so I did not cancel it myself.
*Attention: Earth is still under the "rule" of Ms K. and will build Embassy after finishing Manuf. Center. Remember that point if you what Earth to start working on a wonder instead.
*Our freighters are about to arrive, but have not yet connected (except for the early one to the Drengin).
*We have contact with all majors, but only one minor race (Carinoids). Relations are stable, slowly raising with Torians & Altarians. No demands during my turns.
* There is one colony ship left. We might consider settling either Betelgeuse (the double PQ13) or Martiza (the PQ14 discovered during my during, between Drengin & Arcean space.)
* We are currently "researching" Advanced Trade, but we have not yet spent money on it. We have had one of those "gain 25% database on the current tech" events.
*No idea what happened July/August.

Good luck to you, Sirian. :)

- Physicist

(edit: "December" title shifted to correct position)

The file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/rbgc2-g-2182.zip
 
I really, really, really hate to do this, but I'm going to have to slip out of our game. Something has come up in my personal life that is precluding any gaming for some time. Sorry to back out; I was enjoying it immensely.:)

Keep up the marvelous work!
 
Me:
"Final note: January 2181 was skipped completely - we're now in February. "

Sirian:
"Sorry, that doesn't happen. If there are no ships on manual control, the game forces you to press next turn before it will advance. That, or you wake a ship and move it. If you do have any ships on manual control, the turn will cycle immediately after you move the last ship. If your computer is particularly fast and you have only one ship active, you may get only a very small pause between turns. You need to watch this more closely.

If the game reached February, it did so because you moved something in January. You are not supposed to do anything in January. December is your last turn. I realize this is new and it's an easy enough mistake to make, so don't sweat it, but please pay attention as each player is responsible for not stepping on the next player's toes with the handoff."

Down, boy. Apologize for interfering with your take on what "doesn't happen" - but I didn't click a THING in January; the Month display never SHOWED January. As I've never really watched the Month display in single-player - there's no need - I have no idea if this is normal behavior. During my turn, you'll note that I also had a "double month" where the calendar didn't advance at all, but ships regained their move points and production continued. Based on Physicist's similar problems, we should probably switch auto-turn off.

Regarding the trade of Improved Environment: If you have other "don't trade" techs on your list, please mention them so that we can coordinate our efforts. The only ones I usually hoard are anything that affects Diplomacy, as dealing with other races is potentially the most important aspect of the game and there's no point in giving away an advantage. I considered three techs - even cheap techs - as a good deal for Improved Environment; that saved a lot of future research time and gave us more options. The 10% population boost is really only a problem for us as it affects the Drengin, as our obvious long-term goal is a triumvirate alliance with the Torians and Altarians. But, I suppose differing viewpoints are part of the fun.

Regarding the issue of trading for cash - if you feel it's cheesy, I have no problems avoiding it completely, even with Alex.

AmulekBird - sorry you had to bow out; feel free to drop in anytime with comments.
 
Concerning the trading of Improved Enviroment: I do not think there should be definite "Do"s or "Do-not"s in a succession game apart from the house rules (no idea if this correct English, but I think you get the point). As soon as the game is handed to you, you rule, you make the decisions and the team will work with whatever comes out. If you follow suggestions or advices of other players, or if you do not, this is up to you. I think that all of you see that the same way. One of the fun things in SGs is that you get the game handed in situations you might never have reached in a Single Player game due to your personal playing style. But from these new challenges, one can improve one's gaming skills a lot.

I would not have traded away Improved Enviroment, either, and I did mention that in one of my earlier post. Ben, be assured, this was neither meant as offense nor as any kind of blaming (I am somewhat reaching the limits of my English skills again, but I hope you know what I mean). Hey, this is a game, we don't rule the world :) . I apologize if this was the impression you got.

Personally, I really like these SG discussions, as, especially back in my Civ3 days, I learned so much from them as a lurker. Something that really opened my eyes (so to speak) was Civ3's first Deity training game (Deity is Civ3's hardest level) which I followed as a lurker. In this SG an experienced Deity player (and at that time, only a few people had actually beaten Deity) played with a bunch of wannabe-Deity players and criticised each player's turns in detail. I learned so much from that game, not only reading what the players did do, but why others considered it right or wrong. I am still thankful to the players and especially the trainer who put a lot of time and efford into their reports and discussions just to let me learn from their experience. :)

I am quite sure that I am the least experienced player in this round. So, at least speaking for myself, please feel free to criticise any of my moves. I actually would appreciate that. I would really want to learn from your experience. If I comment on any of your decisions, I do this in the same spirit, not to offend anyone. I can not speak for Sirian, but from what I know about him from his posts, I am sure that he is acting in the same spirit (maybe more on the "giving" than on the "receiving" end because of his high gaming experience.)

In the end, we are here to have fun, isn't it? :)

- Physicist
 
AmulekBird: Sorry to see you drop out :( . Feel free to come back any time you like.

Hm, this could get ugly regarding my time schedule for the next days. I am out of town from Saturday afternoon to Sunday late evening (CET), without internet access and time to play :( .

- Physicist
 
I'm going to have to slip out of our game. Something has come up in my personal life

I hope it's a positive development for you. Thanks for sharing your time with us. I hope you will check in our progress from time to time. If your situation changes again and you'd like to return, let us know.

There's a lot for me to comment on, plus play my turn, plus seek a replacement player (three is too short of a team for optimal effect), then comment some more. :) I'll have to get to most of this later, though.


- Sirian
 
Physicist:

No need to apologize. Adapting to differing strategies is all part of the challenge. I'm already starting to realize that my usual strategies are a bit more "paranoid" than others, especially given our odd geography on this map. We'll see how it shapes up.

Regarding your "lack of experience" - I've been playing this game since May or June of last year, and don't even have 20 games on my profile yet. Figured if I could beat a Maso Medium with default alignments without the 1 IP bug, I didn't have anything to prove to myself. I think all of us should do fine and be able to learn SOMETHING from everybody else here.

Your English is outstanding, by the way. My company's headquarters are in Offenburg, Germany, and reading "Germanglish" emails is quite a challenge. And that's from paid professionals. If you hadn't mentioned it, I would have assumed you were a native English speaker.

Sirian:

Same sentiments all around. Regarding gameplay, as I mentioned in an earlier post, your style is obviously a lot more "scientific" than mine. That's good - I'm picking up a few pointers.

Regarding how the game reacts in certain situations, you may want to avoid comments like "the game doesn't do that" when it very obviously just did, twice. That rankled a bit, as I'm spending a rare bit of free time here and didn't show up to get unjustly kicked in the teeth.

Anyway, on to the next round. Sirian, when you finish yours, please let me know if we'll have a sub for AmulekBird or if you'd like me to go ahead and grab the ZIP file.
 
Originally posted by samurai_ben
If you hadn't mentioned it, I would have assumed you were a native English speaker.

Samurai_Ben: Thanks for the compliment :) . It's always nice to hear something like that from a native speaker. You probably would not have thought so if you had heard me speak English. The English "th" is quite difficult to pronounce for German tongues (and as you already have dealt with Germans you surely know that :) ), and my German tongue is no exception here.


Note of Absence
Guys, as I have already mentioned, I will be away for the next ~30h, and most probably I will not even have internet access during that time. If you have to skip me or shift me to some other slot in the roster in order to keep the momentum, feel free to do so without further notification. When I have returned, I will check the thread immediately and post a message.

Have a nice weekend, and Good Luck with the game - and with the search for a fourth player, of course.

- Physicist

PS:
Gimme a "G"
Gimme an "O"
Gimme an "O"
Gimme a "D"
:worship: THE GOOD TEAM! :worship:

Hey, in addition to the fourth player, we should try to get some cheerleaders... :D ;)
What?... Time for me to leave?... Are you sure?... What do you mean, it would be better for me to leave immediately? Now? ... Oh, well, ok, if you really think so... :( ;)

CU, guys! :)
- Phys
 
That rankled a bit, as I'm spending a rare bit of free time here and didn't show up to get unjustly kicked in the teeth. - Samurai Ben

First, I owe you an apology. As host of this event and leader of this SG team, as well as on a personal level for having issued the invitation for you to join this game, it is my responsibility to ensure a secure and fun environment for you. In this regard, I have let you down, and I'm sorry. I made the judgement that the autoturn function would be an asset to the cause, and as events now show, that was wrong. Autoturn -has- been an asset to me through more than fifty games, and worked out OK for the first SG, so perhaps you can understand why I might have confidence in it. Nevertheless, it turned out to be a poor choice for this game.

Would the words "In my experience", placed before the "rankling" remark, have made any difference? I'm guessing so. I apologize for not putting them there. They WERE implied, but you didn't read it that way, so again I am sorry.

I am also sorry I did not have the time/energy to respond to this blowup immediately. However, you are not the only person in the game whose free time is precious. I hope you understand that. I didn't get that from what you said, but I try to treat people the way I would hope to be treated, which in this case would be to give you benefit of the doubt about your intentions, regardless of how your remarks may read to me.


There. That is three (genuine) apologies from me. I take full responsibility for your gaming experience here, and I will try to meet your demanding needs to your satisfaction in the future, as long as that does not conflict (in my judgement, as team captain) with the interests of the rest of the team.

However, before we proceed, I believe we need to reach a better understanding, or this tension will only reoccur.

I have put a lot of work into this event. Designing the scenario, ensuring its quality, organizing the concept, recruiting the players, arranging the teams. Then there is playing the game, reporting on it in detail, explaining my thinking about both my moves and others' moves, and doing the housekeeping work to keep the game moving forward smoothly.

For you to single out and complain loudly about one mistake I've made (leaving three words off a sentence) rankles ME quite a bit. All this positive stuff, and you focus in on and cannot get past one undiplomatic remark? We have, together, pulled the game thread to a screeching halt. That is not fair to Physicist, who is trying valiantly to moderate the tension. It is not fair to our readers, who came to see a game, not an argument.

Still, is my intent for this event not clear enough? Have I not been polite at every stage? Have I not labored above and beyond the call to create the event? Should my character and intent be judged by one paragraph? Is it even remotely fair of you to describe anything I've said or done as a "kick in the teeth"?

Aren't you overreacting?

More to the point, aren't you a pot calling a kettle black? You suggest I not say with certainty "the game doesn't do that", but you put just as much certainty behind what you say the game does do. "It very obviously just did, twice." Did it now? Perhaps, but I am still not persuaded that your interpretation is correct. I could be wrong, but I have a possible explanation for both instances, which is consistent with my view, and different than how both you and Physicist explained it.

I've run into similar happenings. The combination of the automated flight and the autoturn function has a couple of rough edges. The autoturn by itself is fine, the autopilot by itself is fine, but the two in combination can be confusing. I worked my way through it and assumed others would, too. Worked OK for the first SG. Nobody there seemed to have a problem they couldn't sort out. Thus I had no reason to believe this would become a problem for this game. I was wrong, and again, for that I am sorry.

When the game did not behave the way I expected, while I was first getting used to the autoturn a few months ago, my first instict was -not- to blame the game and assume there was a bug. I looked more closely to try to figure out what was actually going on. Could be a bug, or could be a little fussiness in the game function, which if understood could be dealt with. IN MY EXPERIENCE, the latter proved true and has held consistently true through fifty games and (to date, to my knowledge) the only successfully completed GalCiv SG. With that much consistency behind me, across four patches, perhaps you can understand why I would find it unlikely that a bug should crop up now, several times, within a short span.

Here is what I believe happened. First let me explain how the game mechanics work, IN MY EXPERIENCE. There are two game functions involved. One is autopilot. One is autoturn. These two cross, because there are in fact two "stages" to each turn. First there is the manual movement of ships, then there is the autopilot movement. Autopilot ships do not move until the "turn" ends, which means pressing Next Turn, or with autoturn on, moving the last manually controlled ship. Autopilot ships can "wake" and return to manual control in either of two ways. First, by reaching their destination, with movement points left. Secondly, by player touching the ship during the animation of autopilot, to wake it. With autoturn OFF, any waking of a ship requires another pressing of end turn to cycle the turn. With autoturn ON, players may be expecting the turn to cycle, but if a ship wakes by reaching its destination, the game is back to the manual control phase again, as the turn has not cycled yet. THE TURN ONLY CYCLES AFTER ALL AUTOPILOT SHIPS HAVE MOVED. That much, I'm sure of. Thus, if an autopilot ship wakes on its own, you may think the turn has cycled, but it may not have. You may still be on the same turn. Likewise, when you touch a ship moving automatically and wake it, you expect it to wake. Well, sometimes it doesn't. If it's the last ship moving, the ship may wake but autoturn may cycle ahead anyway.

That's the one bona fide down side to the autoturn. You cannot reliably wake autopilot ships. It may make no difference, as the turn may end anyway. If you don't make a habit of second guessing your autopilot orders, though, it's not a big deal.

Have I ever thought the game missed a turn? Yes. Have I ever thought it failed to advance a month? Yes. Since I figured out (about forty games ago) the fussy particulars of how autopilot and autoturn combine, have I ever seen behavior not covered by my understanding of the game mechanics? No. Have I ever seen a bona fide unexplainable happening? No. Could there be a bug? Perhaps, but it seems extremely unlikely. Unless you consider the inability to wake a moving autopilot ship without autoturn cycling forward anyway a bug -- if that's a "bug", then there's your bug.

Physicist said he lost a turn of production. In my experience, the game only loses a turn of production in one way: loading from the autosave. If the autosave is used, a turn of production is lost. It sucks hugely, but there you have it. Player is doubly penalized by loading from autosave, because a turn of production is lost and the AI's kick in a trade round after every reloading. I could be wrong here, but I'm guessing Physicist reloaded after he thought the game skipped a turn, and upon reloading from autosave, he looks and sees a round of production missing. Easy to conclude that it's all one big whacky event, but here's how it could have played out. First, as he said, he wakes a ship from autopilot. He THINKS it's the same turn, but the autoturn has cycled forward. He moves the now-awake ship, perhaps the only one awake, and the autoturn cycles again. Two turns have passed, but he thinks only one has passed. He decides to reload from autosave, thinking the game lost a turn, and upon inspecting the situation after reloading, finds a turn of production missing. I've been there and done that. Could it have happened any other way? Sure. Could there be a bug? Sure. Do I think it "very obviously" happened the way he explained it? No. And you, Ben... Your experiences indicate you ran into both situations, and found it disorienting both ways: you thought the turn had cycled, when an autoturn ship woke on its own, and you didn't think the turn had cycled the other time.

Did I ever think the autoturn would cause this much of a disruption? Definitely not. I found the quirks to be identifiable, and then no longer significant. Waking autopilot ships is not a major part of my game plan. Do I still do it? Yes, now and then. And sometimes I can pull it off, but I know how to check to see whether I succeeded or failed (whether the turn halted to let me issue new orders, or cycled). I still find the autoturn to be a huge asset, for all the reasons I stated earlier. I don't have a problem handling the production side of the game at the beginning of my turns, but your mileage may vary.


It's my job as team captain to enforce the rules of the event, to keep players within the boundaries. That is crucial to the success of the event, but so is your enjoyment. The rules are intended (obviously) to enhance the fun. I'm sorry they didn't do that for you in this case.


On a personal note, what we have here between you and I is a cultural clash, a clash of values and expectations. From my point of view, it is disrespectful to be "too polite", as much as it is to be insufficiently polite. Personal responsibility is important, yet we in the USA (at least) have developed a culture of blame. Spill hot coffee in your lap, it's the restaurant's fault and we sue. Slip on a sidewalk during an ice storm, it's the fault of whoever owns the property at that address. Pull a trigger, it's the gun maker's fault. Shoot an intruder in your home, it's YOUR fault. Murder someone, you must have been insane so it's not your fault. On and on it goes, an entire culture of blameless, spineless, soulless con artists pointing fingers at everybody but themselves.

With that as backdrop, polite speech is intended to smoothe relations between people, to set rules and boundaries which, if observed, will always prevent the escalation of tensions, especially those involving misunderstandings. Polite speech and behavior enables the focus to remain on important matters, not become distracted by personal conflicts.

However, many people will use polite speech as a weapon, and as a shield. They hold that as long as they say it politely, they can say anything they please. As long as they behave politely, they cannot be held accountable for their actions. Worse, people who've been bitten by prior conflicts, or who have been taught to avoid conflict at all costs, will spread polite speech on in thick layers, couching everything they say and do in thick padding, to insulate themselves against any possible accountability.

I won't ever be mistaken for one of those people. That's the way I want it, that's the way I like it. You will always know where you stand with me. You can rely on me. I have confidence (too much, occasionally) in my own judgement, but that is more of an asset than liability, because it enables me to organize events like this, when nobody's done it before. However, for all my boldness, I am quick to admit error, to accept responsibility for saying something wrong or doing something that fails. If I hold you to account for something, that's a sign of respect from me. It means I view you as a capable person, someone who can answer for their actions, who can be RELIED UPON to uphold their responsibilities. It means I'm treating you as an adult, as a peer. It also means I expect you to behave as an adult, to embrace personal responsibility, to live up to your commitments. I do not play the blame game. I do not focus on "fault". I focus on responsibility.

In this instance, it was my responsibility to be polite enough to keep the focus on the game, and I failed. Why I failed is a separate issue, but I am trying to correct that now, to meet my responsibility. Your responsibility was to finish your round in the allotted number of turns. In that, you failed. Is that your "fault"? No. This isn't, and never was, about blame. Is it a kick in the teeth? No. However, it is your responsibility, and what is so rankling about pointing that out? I did say, and I quote:

I realize this is new and it's an easy enough mistake to make, so don't sweat it, but please pay attention as each player is responsible for not stepping on the next player's toes with the handoff.

There. I absolved you of all blame. I asked you to take responsiblity to see that it didn't happen again. What's unfair about that? What's rude about it? If you need to turn autoturn off to meet this responsibility, that's fine. If you don't mesh with the autoturn and prefer not to use it, that's fine, too.
 
If anybody is to blame, that would be me. I urged you to try the autoturn. You did, and because of that, the game went long. I believed it would not cause you a problem, but I was mistaken. Whether the autoturn is buggy and broken or not is really beside the point. Perhaps you are right and the game REALLY IS AT FAULT. I'm not persuaded, but that isn't important. You have nothing to prove to me, and I will not judge you based on our disagreement about what is taking place with the autoturn.

You do have some choices to make, though. First, you should decide whether or not you have confidence in me, my good will, and my intentions as host of the game. Do you believe I care about your experience here? That I have good intentions for doing all of this work? That my critiques and comments are aimed at enhancing the experience? If not, then this may not be the right place for you. If you aren't sure, that would be fair. You do not know me well yet, and that makes it harder to understand where I'm coming from and why I say what I say. However, I'm quite far short of flawless, and I cannot meet a perfectionist stnadard. (Heck I can't even spell standard on the first try). If one unsmoothed edge will rub you raw (or four or five rough edges, for that matter), while the entirety of all the rest of what I say and do gets pushed aside and cannot smoothe the way past the occasional rough edge, then again, this may not be the place for you. I'm the sort who needs benefit of the doubt. If you don't have a large measure of that to offer, if you don't have patience for someone who errs on the side of less fluff and padded speech, who has a blunt manner and a firm opinion, then this may not be the place for you. On the other hand, I am genuinely sorry for spoiling your outing with what felt to you like a kick in the teeth. I can lead you where others cannot, to realms beyond, to places nobody has yet visited, if you wish to go there. If you still want to play (and you seem to), I will have no problem putting this behind us, with a handshake now.

Secondly, if you are still in for a pound, you have to decide what to do about autoturn. You could try more to figure it out, or you could turn it off when your turns come around. Unless and until I personally experience something to shake my faith in this game feature, I will continue to use it and to advocate for it, but that need not be your concern.


Finally, a brief explanation of what delayed this reply. As BamBam teased me in the SG organization thread, there is a new RBCiv Epic under way. It is the first in a while, since the new Civ3 expansion pack had some issues with bugs. I have a lot of irons in the fire, running that tournament, running this SG, managing concerns for the RB Metaverse empire, managing other RB interests, and giving personal attention to a variety of people online, not to mention the rest of my life. I really didn't need this tension any more than Ben, but I took on the responsibility by organizing the game, so I have done the best I can to make this the best game it can be. I had orginally budgeted enough time to play my turn, but I saw from Ben's first reaction that I had a diplomatic incident on my hands. :( I hope I have done enough here to resolve that. Our readers, and the other teams, are counting on us to deliver what we have advertised: a succession game. That is where my main concern lies.

It will be tomorrow before I play my turn, though. I used my time for this today to write this post. Plus I would like to be sure this has been resolved, and to see whether or not we get a replacement player or will have to go forward undermanned.


- Sirian
 
Sirian,

I appreciate you explaining your words at length. As I said previously, I do appreciate your explanations of strategy, tactics, etc. within the game. They're clearly based much more on the actual game mechanics than mine, which are based mostly on the "feel" of a game and past experience. I'm already picking up a few pointers.

In playing GalCiv, likewise, I tend to "fire it up and play it" without analyzing the game mechanics. Auto-turn seems to be the game default; I've never had a need to change it, so I never have. In single-player, it's doubtful that the actual month or year makes a significant difference to gameplay, so, this is really the first time that I've paid attention to it. I have no idea whether auto-turn or auto-pilot can combine to advance the game a year. I wouldn't even consider it a "bug," as the game is clearly intended for single-player use and a turn is a turn, regardless of what the calendar graphic says. I DO know that I didn't click a thing and that I didn't reload. But your post implied otherwise, that the situation was of my making, and that set me on the defensive.

If my lack of knowledge about the exact mechanics of turn advancement is an issue here, I'm sorry and gladly fall on my sword. But the only resolution would be to reload and replay my entire turn to try to figure out the problem. I thought that it was more in keeping with the spirit of the rules to simply post the saved game with a comment.

If you've taken this issue more seriously than I intended, I apologize for my lack of precision. It should be clear from my posts that differences about game strategy aren't an issue, as far as I'm concerned. All that I was requesting is that you don't automatically assume that a player has acted incorrectly when confronted with a situation that doesn't fit your experience.

Regarding politeness: Bluntness serves a purpose. You've been around the Forums long enough to know that I use it on occassion. If I'm sufficiently annoyed by someone's Forum behavior, I simply stop reading the associated threads and posts. By commenting on it instead, I wasn't venting moral outrage, but rather expressing a willingness to work around the problem and continue playing. Neither did I claim exclusive rights to free time; I realize that everyone is contributing here.

Getting back to the game. In all seriousness, if you're concerned that personality issues are going to conflict with the game play, I can bow out now before the game is disrupted further. The fact that you felt compelled to write an extended explanation speaks well of your character. But the point is to play the game, and if you feel that we don't "click" I don't want to be responsible for unneccessarily delaying it. It IS supposed to be for fun, after all.
 
There is a display bug on the calendar on the main screen. It is not updated correctly until you go into one of the subscreens. I think this is what was seen in both strange cases you have seen here. Moving a ship seems to force an update of the calendar, amongst other things. So with both auto-turn and auto-pilot active, the calendar will not refresh correctly on many turns.

While this has little impact in a normal SP game, it does matter which month it is in a succession game. I think you should all adopt the habit of activating the economy screen as the first action of any months, to make sure the main screen is properly updated.
 
I am back.

- Physicist
 
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