RBTS2 - Defense!

If it's ok to talk about past games, I can say that enemies seem to always go for your first city. In my attempt last week, I lost the first city at one point, but the enemies still went to its location before stopping, and heading towards city #2. (They literally went all the way back to city ruins, before turning and heading north to the next target.) With that in mind, red dot looks much better than green, because it will not have to be defended, while the green one will get hit by enemies heading for our first city.

I still wouldn't leave a remote city completely undefended, but a single warrior per city should be sufficient for cities that aren't on the path between spawn points and our capital.

PS It seems that most of us are still thinking in CIV terms, but we aren't playing CIV here. We are playing a completely different game that just happens to use the CIV engine.

In CIV, it's important to protect our territory to avoid pillaging of improvements. This requires woodsman warriors, etc. In this game, the only places to protect are cities themselves, and even they aren't equal, with 1st city getting the lion's share of attacks. So trying to "control an area" simply spreads thin our forces that could be concentrated in strategic locations.

In CIV, the enemies attack any weak targets they see, so scouts need combat promotions and have to stick to defensible terrain. In this game, enemies attack only units that stand between them and their target. So scouts need to maneuver out of enemies' way. (Which means mobility is more useful for them than combat.)

One of the most fun things about playing major mods like this one is that you have to change the way you look at the game, abandoning your CIV instincts.
 
Ok, so here we are, my goal for this round was to not screw up, hopefully I didn't mess up too much ;)

So I was leaning toward red dot initially, but I do like the idea of pushing towards that jungle strip and keeping our corridor thin, so i settle the green dot:



I then added the scouting tech, and trained three scouts. Our only Jungle Warrior is a medic, not a woodsman, which I didn't entirely understand, since we don't want to stack units very often because they are weakened when you stack them. Am I missing something? To me it would seem like we should be shooting to fill these Jungle chokepoints with Woodsman 3 warriors, where the bonuses from woodsmen 3, the natural jungle defense bonus, and the inherent additional defense adds up to an astronomical defense (CG2 Longbow-on-a-hill behind walls type defense). Anyways, maybe we should talk about that. Also, founding the city and getting the scouting tech means that we don't get any new units besides 3 cheap scouts, but we should be okay.

I pop my first hut almost immediately with our scouts, scoring 93 gold. This generally made me happy.



A quick idea on what I am doing with the scouts, the first scout is off in the far east looking for huts, the second one is watching the south at this spot:



This hill effectively lets him see everything that comes along that path, the only potential weakness is if one of the units for some reason decides to stay along the southern path until the very end, but I've never seen that even close to happening. We went the entire round without a single unit going by this spot (no joke), so he's there for safety precautions only, and you can run around with him if you choose to.

The third scout is up on the northern ledge (you'll see him later) providing LOS for the defending units, which isn't entirely necessary but is the safe move. I'm tempted to try to get it to be attacked so I can promote it, since even though it is strength 4, it gets 100% against animals. Note: the Forest warrior is in the new city right behind these guys just in case someone slips through (no one did).

I then grab two more huts with my scout in back-to-back turns, netting 29 and 57 gold, which was a nice bonus.



This picture pretty much sums up the round and saves me a lot of time describing combat:



Every single one of the attacks went to one of these two spots, with 70% of them going to the northern one. The hill fighter even got up to woodsmen 3 promotion so that was a nice bonus. We seem to have found our primary chokepoint, so we could use one more Jungle warrior to replace on of those two (get up to woodsmen 3), and a pile of ranged units along that ledge, and we should be set for awhile. We definitely should found another city, which costs us 400 gold, but between the income of 3 cities plus the hut money, we have 783 gold, so we could found a city and build several units. If we have enough, maybe build a tundra warrior to run around in the tundra (like Sullla's original idea), since we lost our earlier one, but that obviously is not a priority. Feel free to run around for more huts with one of the two sentry scouts (or replace them with more), those guys are there to be safe.

One more thing worth noting that I noticed is that when you're at the build screen, the menu in the upper-right goes away, so you have to save with Ctrl+S :rolleyes:.

So I think our priority is one more jungle warrior and a handful of bowmen. We don't necessarily need to grab a tech this turn, but if we do I think we should prioritize the catapults or trebs. Catapults are stronger, but trebs have twice the range. Since the tundra warrior is only 40 gold, you might have spare change left over for one of those or a couple more scouts (who are also almost 40 gold now).

Here's the save:
 

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Great turnset, scooter! :D Everything looks like it went just about as well as possible. Our scouts even managed to pull in some major moolah from huts, not bad. Those bears never knew what hit them! :hammer:

The AI units moved through exactly the two tiles I thought they would. Just look at that screenshot from the last page. Not too bad, eh? ;)

Alright, more strategy time. Let me post another screenshot for illustration:



We'll definitely want to build another city this round, to increase our economy to 800 gold/round. Either the old red dot from last round or the new green dot shown above look like the logical spots. Red is more protected, but green keeps the enemies locked in to the northwest corner. (At least, I think that's how it works... I dunno if the AI will target other cities beyond your capital. Zeviz's experience seems to indicate that the don't, but we'd probably better play it safe and not really completely on that.) Again, I don't have a clear answer here on this decision. scooter seemed to do quite well with the northern spot this round though.

Zeviz brought up an important issue we need to consider before we get too much further along: defend in the cities, or focus on holding the jungle area? To quote:

Zeviz said:
In CIV, it's important to protect our territory to avoid pillaging of improvements. This requires woodsman warriors, etc. In this game, the only places to protect are cities themselves, and even they aren't equal, with 1st city getting the lion's share of attacks. So trying to "control an area" simply spreads thin our forces that could be concentrated in strategic locations.

This is good advice that we should keep in mind. To a certain extent, it really doesn't matter how much ground we concede to the AI units, so long as we don't lose cities and don't lose units. Still, I think that there is good reason to push out some distance ahead and establish a line of some sort, rather than holding back and defending only the cities themselves. For one thing, that allows us to give ground if necessary without losing cities. (Hopefully it won't come to this, but it might!) For another, it gives us more opportunities to bombard incoming enemy units, if we position our units correctly.

But most importantly, the defensive bonuses are just much, much greater when taking a stand in the jungle. It's really all about the Woodsman III promotion, which is just crazily powerful if the enemy tries to attack you on wooded terrain. Look at what I've highlighted in the bottom left corner of the above screenshot: Two First Strikes. That's not two chances at a first strike, but two actual first strikes - as good as the Drill IV promotion! Now add on to that a +50% defensive bonus for being on jungle terrain, then the +50% added by Woodsman III, then another +25% for the natural ability of a Jungle Warrior, and another +25% for 5 turns of fortifying... yeoch! We're up to strength 25 already for our hypotetical Jungle Warrior, and we haven't even started adding Combat promotions yet! And every battle starts with us getting TWO FIRST STRIKES!!! :crazyeye:

Convinced yet that defending in the jungle is the right idea? If not, just look at the health bars in that above shot (arrowed in white). The Forest Warrior is defending IN one of our cities. The Jungle Warrior isn't even Woodsman III yet (he's only Woodsman II!) but easily puts his sibling warrior to shame. It's not even close, and it will only snowball further from here.

We want a Woodsman III Jungle Warrior on both of the tiles that the AI is moving through. The Hill Fighter has done a fine job, but it's time to move him somewhere else. (Maybe down to the jungle in the south, as a safety net in case something tries to flank us down there?) In other words, we definitely should buy another Jungle dude, which is pretty cheap at only 60g. (Don't buy any more Tundra fighters unless we absolutely need them.) Another longbow at the equally cheap cost of 60g wouldn't be bad either.

The next techs to research are definitely Trebuchets and Catapults, both relatively cheap at 200g. Both open up good units; I'm a little partial to trebs just because I think the range 6 is awesome, but we'll want some of both. With the way costs scale up in this game (+50% cost for each additional unit of the same type), it will be much more effective to build 2 cats and 2 trebs than 4 cats or 4 trebs. That makes sense, right?

We might also want another scout just to help check for huts. (Two at home for senty duty, two to fogbust for huts.) At only 25g, finding even a single additional hut would pay for itself. That is, if we don't already have enough to think about! :lol:

Sullla
Zeviz
scooter
sunrise089 <<< UP NOW
Ruff_Hi <<< on deck

In case you couldn't tell, I'm enjoying this a lot. :)
 
But most importantly, the defensive bonuses are just much, much greater when taking a stand in the jungle.

My thoughts exactly. There aren't units that get City Garrison Promos, so it's kind of a waste to be defending in the city, not defending in the jungle would be a waste of promotions. The bowmen will be helpful, but IMO there isn't a strong need for them for a few more turns, and by then we'll have access to better catapults/trebs.
 
I am convinced about buying a pair of Jungle warriors. :)

I would still encourage the focus on research and cities, rather than early military. Remember that by round 13 we'll have to have enough ranged firepower to destroy 120 units without letting a single enemy hit us. So we'll have to research much further than Cats and Trebs on the tech tree.

Another thought, what about an experiment: Found the next city as far south as you can, along the back line, and buy a hill warrior and somebody else to defend it. At this point, a single hill warrior is enough to defend a city on a hill, and this will give us definitive proof of whether AI targets cities other than the capital. If at the end of this round the southern city's defenders still have 0XP, we'll know that AI just beelines for the capital.

PS That medic Jungle warrior could still make an exellent woodsman 3. The soldiers positioned in key city (or in chokepoints) gain experience insanely quickly. In my private game I ran out of useful promotions to give my main defenders.
 
Hi!

Can I ask some questions about the mod?
I played with it a bit yesterday.
Some of my units dissappeared. Is it a bug or a feature?
I didn't applied any patch yet.
Sorry if its offtopic.

One more question : Can the obsolate units be sold? Or upgraded?

Thanks
 
same happened to me on level 12 or 13. I was doing so good, and all of the sudden my units start disappearing without being attacked.

Hi!

Can I ask some questions about the mod?
I played with it a bit yesterday.
Some of my units dissappeared. Is it a bug or a feature?
I didn't applied any patch yet.
Sorry if its offtopic.

One more question : Can the obsolate units be sold? Or upgraded?

Thanks
 
Lurker's comment:

About the units disappearing, there is an unit called Suicide Grenadier (sorry for spoiling but I guess it's ok because you already discussed about it earlier!). If you attack it and win your unit will just disappear. If you defend against it, your unit will disappear. That's how my 80+ experience warriors died. There are two ways to beat them, I will let that for the sg team to deal with :D
 
sorry to get off-topic from your thread on this.
I do know about those. I've seen them 2 or 3 levels ago. On my current on, I have my ranged units on hills that noone ever attacks and I know there isn't any unit within 3 tiles.
One turn I see all of those units down to 0.1 health. I didn't get any message that someone attacked them. Couple turns later they just disappear. And it was from 3 hills that are next to each other.

Lurker's comment:

About the units disappearing, there is an unit called Suicide Grenadier (sorry for spoiling but I guess it's ok because you already discussed about it earlier!). If you attack it and win your unit will just disappear. If you defend against it, your unit will disappear. That's how my 80+ experience warriors died. There are two ways to beat them, I will let that for the sg team to deal with :D
 
sorry to get off-topic from your thread on this.
I do know about those. I've seen them 2 or 3 levels ago. On my current on, I have my ranged units on hills that noone ever attacks and I know there isn't any unit within 3 tiles.
One turn I see all of those units down to 0.1 health. I didn't get any message that someone attacked them. Couple turns later they just disappear. And it was from 3 hills that are next to each other.
This is due to the Psycho Samurai, who collateral damages tiles adjacent to your units. You dont get a game message, its just a matter of checking the somewhat tricky civilopedia for this scenario.
 
Guys, sunrise089 contacted me and won't have access to a computer with Civ4 on it for the next couple of weeks. We're going to put him on permanent skip for the moment, and hopefully he'll be able to join us again later. :) That means that Ruff is now up:

Sullla <<< on deck
Zeviz
scooter
sunrise089 (skipped)
Ruff_Hi <<< UP NOW
 
Slight spoiler info, so will put in tags. However as you all have played test games it might not be spoilerish...

Spoiler :
BTW, in my games there are panthers which must get at least 6 moves coming up in the next few rounds. They attacked athens without me ever seeing them stationary. I placed athens in the exact same place as you guys did (although my cities were ALL on hills) Also, until athens fell, the only city they attacked was Athens.
 
ok - got it.
 
Round 4 - Panthers, Lions and Bears

This seemed to be another fairly straight forward round. I put down another city (undefended!) at Sullla's green dot (cost was 400g). I looked at putting down another city (cost 500g) but didn't have enough gold. Instead I purchased the Trebuchet tech but we don't have enough gold to buy even 1 treb. Sigh ... I ended up purchasing 2 more scouts (25g and 30g) and 2 more bowman (60g and 80g). I thought that the cost went up 50% for each additional unit (ie 100, 150, 225, 337.5, etc) but I must have mis-understood. Of course, it is using Civ4 maths which means that +50% each is 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, etc.

We now have 5 scouts (1 playing lookout for the bowman, 1 watching the southern route and 3 scouting for huts).

Re huts ...



... for a total of 242 gold which is enough for A NEW TREBUCHET ... maybe I can get a job announcing on The Price is Right!



Once our bowman got to the gauntlet Mountains, they had a lot of fun picking off the incoming animals. I know that I have 2 bowman together, but the animals were mostly (not totally) locked into 1 path. They did sometimes stray onto the RED DOT hill. Also, having the units stacked saving me some time, not that I found the timer to be any problem what so ever. Actually hit spacebar near the end of my round.

Here are the current options for city sites - suggest RED DOT now.

 

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Slight spoiler info, so will put in tags. However as you all have played test games it might not be spoilerish...
Not all of us :)

I'm trying to keep the fun surprises for my reports. Guess who the weak member of the team will be though...

As Sullla said, I have no game-capable PC for the next two weeks. I will still be able to post comments however. (A few more) details here.
 
Hi, i'm sorry to say that this mod is really bugged. You've got to kill more than the counter says. That means it could and will happen that on the "end" of a round leftover "monsters" are still there, so really no "new" round for you. There is even a time when the kill counter turns negative... granted i had to kill only 4 "monsters" in level 19 to advance but this really sucks.

Plan for enough artillery and you'll make it even with the bug.

[But nevertheless this mod was really fun to beat. Thanks a lot for introducing it.]

@Emp. Killyouall
Spoiler :
Panthers are stealth units, you need Scouts to see them.
 
@Scooter :lol:
Number 1 Threat to America: Bears! :lol:

I actually didn't put that there, that's the pop-up you get in the scenario itself, but that did definitely make me laugh :lol:.

Ruff_Hi, nice round (nice huts!), and I'm also in favor of founding red dot now. As for the other red dot, that was the one spot I did notice too, maybe stick a hill warrior there (and a bowman with him)? I don't think we'll have problems stacking bowmen on most of those hills, because like you said, the animals ignore them anyways, so the strength doesn't matter (or does it? Pretty sure it doesn't affect their attacking abilities, but correct me if I'm wrong). I think we get maybe one or two more jungle warriors and maybe one hill warrior to stick on that red dot hill, then spam ranged units along that shelf.
 
forgot to mention in my report that all scouts are CURRENTLY FORTIFIED. You will need to hunt them down and release them to hut hunting duties. Don't forget to light-up the Southern passage ... the AI units will find them.
 
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