Really Hope There's an Undo Button in Civ7

[fy00sh]

a valid assumption that people will actually use mechanics implemented in the game to the fullest extent

what validates that assumption? and how many people are referred to there with the word "people"
yeah therell be a handful of people who use it to the fullest extent. but the vast majority wouldnt bother going that far id imagine

But if a majority of the playerbase is playing the game without any semblance of risk of failure or loss, then that is undeniably a problem.

I deny this. its not necessarily a problem. its only a problem if they have less fun because of it. i dont think thered be a majority of people who are forgoing the risk of loss entirely *and* having significantly less fun because of it. i think most people would figure out what balance is best for them, or at least good enough for them

The purpose of the challenge or victory. Civ VI is a game with competing civilizations to reach victory the quickest. It's not really a challenge if one can just fix any mistake they want with a click. Of course there are others who do not play towards a victory or roleplay instead, which fair enough. But they are a very small portion of the playerbase compared to the ones who go into games and play to beat the AI.

theres also others who dont care about being challenged

It's like if I failed a history test, got it back, re-did all my mistakes with full knowledge of the correct answer, and then turned it again with 100% accuracy. That's a joke of a test if it ever exists.

the point of a history test is to see where a student's at in their understanding of the material. being able to make up points by redoing wrong answers is a thing thats done in real life in schools so that students can further practice the material theyre struggling with and also be rewarded for doing so. its a good practice that better promotes the intended goal of getting the kids to learn the material.
an undo button in civ could similarly help people learn how to deal with various situations in game.
also redoing questions on a test is, in my experience, never mandatory.
also just like how a (well implemented) undo button would never be mandatory and in fact would default to being off.

 

[Gorbles]

It's like if I failed a history test, got it back, re-did all my mistakes with full knowledge of the correct answer, and then turned it again with 100% accuracy. That's a joke of a test if it ever exists.

What I'm hearing is that Firaxis should remove autosaves, because despite claims that reloading autosaves aren't "built in", they literally are.

Video games aren't a history test for me. I have a day job. I don't need a game of Civ treated like an assessment. Maybe you do. This is why options are good. If you lack the willpower to not use said option, that's not on anyone else.

 

[canadamufc]

what validates that assumption? and how many people are referred to there with the word "people"
yeah therell be a handful of people who use it to the fullest extent. but the vast majority wouldnt bother going that far id imagine

Let me just explain why it will be abused by players.
a) it's very simple. An undo button, how easy is that?
b) efficiency. With a simple click you can fix a mistake, how great is that?
c) accessibility. Right there handed to you, how nice are they?
Anyone will look at this and come to the conclusion at how easy this is to grasp for players. Why would they NOT abuse such a mechanic when it's so easy for them to use?
I mean of course there are many people who will moderate themselves but for many others it will simply be another mechanic they can use whenever they like. That's the problem.
And sure, they enjoy using the undo feature to its full extent, but I also would enjoy having infinite settlers. If there was a +1 settler button, will you in all serious tell me players would not abuse this button?
With this type of accessibility, in my opinion, "people" would refer to most of the playerbase.

the point of a history test is to see where a student's at in their understanding of the material. being able to make up points by redoing wrong answers is a thing thats done in real life in schools so that students can further practice the material theyre struggling with and also be rewarded for doing so. its a good practice that better promotes the intended goal of getting the kids to learn the material.
an undo button in civ could similarly help people learn how to deal with various situations in game.
also redoing questions on a test is, in my experience, never mandatory.
also just like how a (well implemented) undo button would never be mandatory and in fact would default to being off.

Maybe it's where i live but if I had an exam in any subject, you get 1 chance on it and that's it. None of this re-doing questions with knowing the answer.

What I'm hearing is that Firaxis should remove autosaves, because despite claims that reloading autosaves aren't "built in", they literally are.

What you should of heard is how I wrote multiple times that autosaves are so inefficient that no one in their right mind is using it as an undo button.
OK. maybe they are built in. Does not change my point in the slightest, after all, I was only referring to their inefficiency.

I dunno. A game with a free "fix your mistake" button is just... not right with me.
I see what everyone is saying, and there is some truth to it! However I believe one of Civilization's key points is the unique challenge each game brings and an undo button sort of trivializes the process of thinking actions through. It makes everything feel less consequential.

 

[Tuvok694]

You guys really think about something like "Civ7"? We are at least some years away from a release like that.
And I don't think the "undo button" will coming to Civ6. The leader pass will probably be the last breath of this game. And they did not even fix long-known bugs in the leader pass.

 

[Vandlys]

Let me just explain why it will be abused by players.
a) it's very simple. An undo button, how easy is that?
b) efficiency. With a simple click you can fix a mistake, how great is that?
c) accessibility. Right there handed to you, how nice are they?
Anyone will look at this and come to the conclusion at how easy this is to grasp for players. Why would they NOT abuse such a mechanic when it's so easy for them to use?
I mean of course there are many people who will moderate themselves but for many others it will simply be another mechanic they can use whenever they like. That's the problem.
And sure, they enjoy using the undo feature to its full extent, but I also would enjoy having infinite settlers. If there was a +1 settler button, will you in all serious tell me players would not abuse this button?
With this type of accessibility, in my opinion, "people" would refer to most of the playerbase.


Maybe it's where i live but if I had an exam in any subject, you get 1 chance on it and that's it. None of this re-doing questions with knowing the answer.


What you should of heard is how I wrote multiple times that autosaves are so inefficient that no one in their right mind is using it as an undo button.
OK. maybe they are built in. Does not change my point in the slightest, after all, I was only referring to their inefficiency.

I dunno. A game with a free "fix your mistake" button is just... not right with me.
I see what everyone is saying, and there is some truth to it! However I believe one of Civilization's key points is the unique challenge each game brings and an undo button sort of trivializes the process of thinking actions through. It makes everything feel less consequential.

You are confusing "using" with "abusing". There is nothing to abuse here. It's a game people can play in single player. If they enjoy using that button for the purpose it has been designed for, then it's not abuse.

I mean of course there are many people who will moderate themselves but for many others it will simply be another mechanic they can use whenever they like. That's the problem.

What's the problem? Why is it a problem? How does this become a problem for you or players?

If there was a +1 settler button, will you in all serious tell me players would not abuse this button?

I would not. With two clicks I can get a cheat menu with a built-in UI in my game. I do not, because I don't think it's fun. This undo button I would use, when I have a miss-click. I would not have any problem with that.

However I believe one of Civilization's key points is the unique challenge each game brings and an undo button sort of trivializes the process of thinking actions through.

For you, maybe. But there are plenty of times when I have thought something through but the game's UI was confusing (game telling me an archer can attack, but then moves instead and ends right in front a melee unit without being able to attack), or I simply click somewhere by accident because I moved my hand wrong.

Comparing this to an exam environment is silly. This is not an exam, this is an entertainment product. Its first and foremost goal is to entertain. An undo button does not stand in the way of entertainment for most people, and if it does for you, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to ignore it. Unless there is a pop-up in screen that goes "Whoopsie, are you sure you don't want to undo that stupid move?!", I don't see why you couldn't ignore it.

 

[Vandlys]

You guys really think about something like "Civ7"? We are at least some years away from a release like that

You provide this statement without argument. Many people have provided good arguments in different topics why a Civ7 release in October would follow along a pattern established in previous releases. That doesn't mean anything if they deviate, but it's the only thing we have to go on. And by those patterns, Civ7 release in October is not out of the question. Civ VI got first mentioned/announced(?) six months before release.

 

[Brixter]

Hope all you want but I bet they won't create an Undo button. You're wasting energy in dreaming that this will happen.

 

[LMT]

Eh, I'm not sure including an undo button would have some of the domino/snowball effects of future game designs as some are suggesting.

Right now, I think there's a happy medium with the ability to reload an autosave. But if an undo button is included in VII, I don't think it will be that big of an issue. Though it would be nice if it were a feature one could turn on/off.

Unless it is something close to game-changing, I rarely reload an autosave after a clicking mistake. It just takes too much time. I chalk it up to a real leader making a mistake (e.g., a local military commander misinterpreting an order, not being able to read/hear an order clearly, etc.). It adds an element of randomness to the game, just like random events--and mistakes--have always been a part of history.

 

[pokiehl]

Let me just explain why it will be abused by players.

Why do you care? This is what I meant by paternalistic. It’s not your job to tell me how to play my game.

 

[Brixter]

Why do you care? This is what I meant by paternalistic. It’s not your job to tell me how to play my game.

Is it wrong that someone expresses his opinion? Why do you question someone saying his opinion just because he doesn't agree with you?

 

[pokiehl]

Is it wrong that someone expresses his opinion? Why do you question someone saying his opinion just because he doesn't agree with you?

Not at all -- the whole point of this forum is to share our opinions. But he had asked me earlier why I described this discussion as getting paternalistic; the "anti undo button" side keeps returning to this idea of "it'll ruin the game for you." All I'm saying is taking away a game feature because you think it's bad for me (implying I'm not competent enough to make my own decisions about a videogame) is just bizarre to me. That's all I'm hitting at, not that anyone here shouldn't share an opinion

 

[Equilin]

I don't think we need an undo button. People who likes savescumming (me included) should just set autosave turns to 1 and reload from that instead (it's just 1 turn). If you're reloading for favorable RNG rolls then let's ask the devs to put "New Random Seed" option back in instead, which is a lot easier due to not requiring additional button/UI space and because they already did that in V.

 

[PYITE]

For those who haven’t played Old World:

The undo button is optional

Random seeds can be locked or unlocked or in game setup

Locked random seed fixes what event will be given from a goody hut regardless of what turn you get it.

Reloading from a save will lose all memory of previous moves.

Game options can be locked so they can’t be changed mid game.

Game saves can set so there is a check of previous saves to not allow for modded changes.

With all those options it’s up to the individual how they want to play. Seems like the options are better for things like game of the month than what Civ 6 currently offers.


I used the undo button a lot when learning the game, it was super helpful and time saving. Now that I’m familiar with the game I turn it off in options.

I know the undo button has gotten a lot of attention but the 2 biggest innovations of Old World are the orders/unit movement system which removes the slog of the 1upt system and the split production output of cities.

 

[fy00sh]

Let me just explain why it will be abused by players.
a) it's very simple. An undo button, how easy is that?
b) efficiency. With a simple click you can fix a mistake, how great is that?
c) accessibility. Right there handed to you, how nice are they?

Your insistence that others' use of an undo button will become abuse based on the logic of "*i'm* certain theyll use it, and *i'm* certain theyll use it *so much* itll be bad for them, because it just simply makes sense *to me*, of course, obviously, simple as that. its just self evident" is what is making you sound paternalistic fyi

Why would they NOT abuse such a mechanic when it's so easy for them to use?

ill give a complete list of reasons:
1) its not fun for them (this includes "it removes fun challenge from the game" and excludes "it removes unfun/fun-neutral challenge from the game")
2) theyre playing multiplayer or some monthly challenge where it'd be unfair to another living breathing human being
3) no good reason. (the above two reasons are the only good reasons)

I also would enjoy having infinite settlers. If there was a +1 settler button, will you in all serious tell me players would not abuse this button?

i dont use a +1 settler button but i do use a -1 settler button against the ai often when they yoink a city location i wanted, such as next to a wonder, and im assuming this use consititutes abuse in your eyes. what would you have done about it, tell me to stop having as much fun with the game i spent hundreds of dollars on already? if it werent for the cheat map editor mod idve stopped playing long ago. im just having strictly more fun because im """""abusing""""" the game, and good! the game is trying to challenge me but its only doing so to try to get me to have fun, so it is good when i circumvent that challenge in order to give myself more fun than the challenge allowed for. isnt that just obvious?

Maybe it's where i live but if I had an exam in any subject, you get 1 chance on it and that's it. None of this re-doing questions with knowing the answer.

im sorry the education system sucks where you live. they should change that

A game with a free "fix your mistake" button is just... not right with me.

why not? cos it kinda just sounds like you dont like the idea of others playing in a way you dont approve of. if thats wrong then please prove me wrong

 

[Aurelesk]

Again, who care if someone does that? Does it effect your game in anyway? Why does it matter to you if other players "cheat?"

Well, it is a 4X game. Exploring is a core gameplay: it is one of the reasons the early game is more exciting to play.

Basically, there are two sides:
- One that doesn't want to assume their mistakes and roll with them, so a quick Undo button would satisfy them.
- One that is on a purist and doesn't want people to play on easier mode, so want to forbid or limit the Undo button.
-- The majority lies in-between those two sides and doesn't really want to side with one, because, well, nobody forces them to use or use the button, and the issue isn't that important.

I believe one way to satisfy both end would be to add an unlimited Undo button, yet show how many time the button have been used on a playthrough, so those who do care how other perform could make the comparison. Everyone would be happy!

 

[pokiehl]

I believe one way to satisfy both end would be to add an unlimited Undo button, yet show how many time the button have been used on a playthrough, so those who do care how other perform could make the comparison. Everyone would be happy!

This seems a lot more convoluted than just making it a setting, like other 4x games have successfully done.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Well, it is a 4X game. Exploring is a core gameplay: it is one of the reasons the early game is more exciting to play.

Basically, there are two sides:
- One that doesn't want to assume their mistakes and roll with them, so a quick Undo button would satisfy them.
- One that is on a purist and doesn't want people to play on easier mode, so want to forbid or limit the Undo button.
-- The majority lies in-between those two sides and doesn't really want to side with one, because, well, nobody forces them to use or use the button, and the issue isn't that important.

I believe one way to satisfy both end would be to add an unlimited Undo button, yet show how many time the button have been used on a playthrough, so those who do care how other perform could make the comparison. Everyone would be happy!

None of this still answers the question of why it matters how other people play the game, something that has yet to be answered in this thread. Why does it matter so much how other people play the game? How does other people abusing an undo button effect your game? How could it possibly effect your game?

Beyond that, maybe people find exploration boring? Like, different people enjoy the same game for different and even contradictory reasons. Plenty of people like to play with a pacifist playstyle and don't like the exterminate part of 4X. That doesn't lessen their ability to enjoy a 4X game. It certainly doesn't effect my enjoyment of being able to be militarily aggressive and is, therefore, none of my business. How some people would use an undo button isn't other peoples' business either.

 

[canadamufc]

It’s not your job to tell me how to play my game.

Not what I said.

All I'm saying is taking away a game feature because you think it's bad for me (implying I'm not competent enough to make my own decisions about a videogame) is just bizarre to me.

That's an accusatory and bizarre claim for something I also didn't say.
If you want to take something personal which was not meant to anyone specifically nor was it an attack on your competency, then that's your problem. Completely bizarre how you've spun it that way.

I'm not calling anyone else incompetent and stupid over an undo button of all things. We're arguing over a button, it's not that serious. So why are you trying to paint me as things I haven't said? Honest question

Your insistence that others' use of an undo button will become abuse based on the logic of "*i'm* certain theyll use it, and *i'm* certain theyll use it *so much* itll be bad for them, because it just simply makes sense *to me*, of course, obviously, simple as that. its just self evident" is what is making you sound paternalistic fyi

I think I've said this before, right?
Again, if Firaxis adds a game mechanic as accessible as a potential undo button, it's only expected people will use it to its full possibilities like any other game mechanic ever added in this game.

The only true argument I've seen from the pro-undo camp is that anyone who is against it is obviously trying to tell other people how to play their game like some authoritarian ruler, which i simply cannot understand.
I think at this point, we're better off just agreeing to disagree.

 

[pokiehl]

None of this still answers the question of why it matters how other people play the game, something that has yet to be answered in this thread.

You really have to wonder how many of these folks would be using this same line of argument against mods if they weren’t already an established part of the franchise.

I like to use and make mods that let me play the game in different ways than the developers intended. I’m not a hardcore minmaxer. I don’t like deity. I don’t chase achievements. I just want to have fun my way in a history-themed game.

 

[pokiehl]

it's only expected people will use it to its full possibilities

I guess I’ll just simplify it all with one question: Why does that matter at all to you?