By the time we get a religion and a GP, we should have got mono from a minor trade and converted to Org. Religion. And we dont need to build missionaries outside of mainland Europe. And few countries near us are zealotous enough to be theocratic. And religion spreads naturally as well. And shrines pay a lot per city anyway, and putting the religion into a backwards, religious civ that hopefully converts will lead to a lot of religion spreading (so more money).
Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR
- Thread starter Lighthearter
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Whosit
Entropic Knight
I apologize for the wall of text, but I wanted to comment on the most recent discussions.
I think that researching a relatively expensive tech just in case we can trade it away (or give it up for peace?) is a sub-par plan. While it is true that Horse Archers are strong units when used properly, as far as I know, we do not have a strong industrial base at the moment, although I would need to see screen shots for each city to make a better judgment.
I feel obliged to play the Devil's Advocate here (pun unintended, surely). Will the monks be placated if we adopt a foreign religion? We can still gain all the benefits of State Religion even if we did not found it ourselves. Surely a foreign religion has spread to our lands by now (I recall seeing a screen shot to that effect). I am really worried that wasting time researching a ton of old religious techs just to set up a bulb (which could fail if another civilization reaches our target tech first!) is a risky strategy at best.
I would just like to point out that culturally flipping Antium is extremely unlikely at best. In fact, it would be more likely that our city would be flipped. The proposed site has one grassland forest for production, so two hammers per turn total. Antium has some hills. We cannot build the cultural infrastructure required to flip Antium, and Caesar could easily stack units in the city to avoid a flip. Now that you mention it, we'd probably want to build a few farms so we can whip out a Monument, Library, maybe Temple/Monastery if we can get a religion to spread to the city just to keep it under our control. Antium's borders will surely pop before we get the city down.
I'd like to see the trade screen. I can't remember where that update was . . . . It's unlikely that those old religious techs are worth much in trade, assuming our rivals do not have them already.
Just because Rome will be an eventual target does not mean that we shouldn't get them on our good side. Suppose we made Rome an ally and got them to attack, say, Russia. While all the Praetorians are off in Siberia, we slip the knife in . . .
If we meet the pre-requisites for Code of Laws, and Confucianism has not yet been founded, this would be the best way to score England a religion. In-game, each religion is the same and only hold whatever meaning we give to them. Researching CoL means not spending precious time researching half a dozen other techs just to set up a bulb, and we'd already have the Prophet for the Shrine, as WIM mentioned.
And I generally agree with what Aysee has been saying, although I still would not prioritize HBR until we have both production and Horses, which I think we still lack for the foreseeable future, due to poor city placement.
I think that researching a relatively expensive tech just in case we can trade it away (or give it up for peace?) is a sub-par plan. While it is true that Horse Archers are strong units when used properly, as far as I know, we do not have a strong industrial base at the moment, although I would need to see screen shots for each city to make a better judgment.
I feel obliged to play the Devil's Advocate here (pun unintended, surely). Will the monks be placated if we adopt a foreign religion? We can still gain all the benefits of State Religion even if we did not found it ourselves. Surely a foreign religion has spread to our lands by now (I recall seeing a screen shot to that effect). I am really worried that wasting time researching a ton of old religious techs just to set up a bulb (which could fail if another civilization reaches our target tech first!) is a risky strategy at best.
I would just like to point out that culturally flipping Antium is extremely unlikely at best. In fact, it would be more likely that our city would be flipped. The proposed site has one grassland forest for production, so two hammers per turn total. Antium has some hills. We cannot build the cultural infrastructure required to flip Antium, and Caesar could easily stack units in the city to avoid a flip. Now that you mention it, we'd probably want to build a few farms so we can whip out a Monument, Library, maybe Temple/Monastery if we can get a religion to spread to the city just to keep it under our control. Antium's borders will surely pop before we get the city down.
I'd like to see the trade screen. I can't remember where that update was . . . . It's unlikely that those old religious techs are worth much in trade, assuming our rivals do not have them already.
Just because Rome will be an eventual target does not mean that we shouldn't get them on our good side. Suppose we made Rome an ally and got them to attack, say, Russia. While all the Praetorians are off in Siberia, we slip the knife in . . .
If we meet the pre-requisites for Code of Laws, and Confucianism has not yet been founded, this would be the best way to score England a religion. In-game, each religion is the same and only hold whatever meaning we give to them. Researching CoL means not spending precious time researching half a dozen other techs just to set up a bulb, and we'd already have the Prophet for the Shrine, as WIM mentioned.
And I generally agree with what Aysee has been saying, although I still would not prioritize HBR until we have both production and Horses, which I think we still lack for the foreseeable future, due to poor city placement.
arya126
Squad Leader
WIM where are you getting this bull?
Have i ever considered getting a religion? Well obviously since i am pressing for religious techs to be researched against you who say they are worthless.
Being a bad leader is not something that can be a fact. It is an opinion of the one who thinks that. I welcome your thoughts that i am a bad leader, because THAT MEANS IM DOING A GOOD JOB! RL life views are just that-RL views. I am allowed to use them as i see fit since THEY ARE MINE. If i hvae something against confucianism, then that is my problem isnt it? I never asked what you thought about religions in RL because i dont care. If you were against Islam in RL and refused to research/found it in the game, i would never hold that against you. Religion is a touchy thing, and i strongly advise you to drop that arguement that i am a bad leader because i say these things. It just shows that you can find nothing else to ctiticize me on. yet there shouldnt be anything to do that with, as I HAVE JUST STARTED MY TERM.
I never gave the idea to put one settler in iberia. THAT WAS MN. FOLLOW THE DISCUSSION AND GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT WIM. If i remember correctly i originally wanted 4 cities there, then increased my idea to 5, then 4 again. The reasons you just gave were just some of the reasons me and Ravus (and others. Just dont feel like going to check) stated to convince him otherwise.
ALLIES
Are you kidding me? Rome as an ally? I would much rather capture those cities and use them ourselves rather than having rome as an ally, only to have him stab us in the back during the war. Rome IS NOT AN ALLY if its ever up to me to decide. In the future, I even plan to attack them as a warm up round for taking down russia in the later game. The best we can do is keep them neutral in any russian-english wars. Plus they are buddhist. It will take a long time to convert them and do the other things to turn them as an ally. Also, our close borders will spark tensions later. That will not be good for an ally.
Lighthearter
President of the United States
Athers burst out of the trees, sword in his right hand, a torch in his left. Eight of his men lay dead back there - half of Team One. And that was just the casualties he knew of. It was certain that there were others who were dead. Athers was at the moment considering his retreat angles. He could see the light that was the Morning Glory on the horizon, sailing in. They only had to hold for a few minutes on the beach. Eagles began to emerge from the woods, most with cuts and gashes across them. Athers began to feel despair - how could this ragtag bunch hold off the seventy-sixty remaining Russians.
Then he remembered a certain discussion with Lord Ravus. And remembered he held a torch in his hand. He slammed his sword point-first into the ground and deftly tossed his torch into his other hand. He sprinted forward, aware that only five men had joined him, seeing and hearing the wave of Russians in the woods. He hurled the torch into the woods, a defiant cry of "Albion!" springing unbidden from his lips. It landed in the top of one of the trees and began to smoke, then the tree burst into flame. The Russian attack ground into a chaotic halt. Athers turned and ran back to his troops.
"It's not going to spread, sir!" one of the men yelled. Athers turned and saw that he was right. The fire would consume one of two trees, but the area was to snowy for it to expand farther then that. He swore in frustration. Then a moving object caught his eye. It was a net with a bunch of barrels in it. The met burst in mid-air as it flew by, and the barrels flew into the flames with pinpoint accuracy. The subsequent explosions made the ground shake for a moment under Athers' feet. The Glorytossed oil into the flames! Captain Drashgorth can think on his feet with the best of them! Athers turned and jumped into the sea as another wave of flaming oil shot in. His men were right behind him.
A moment later he was hauled aboard the Morning Glory on a rope, and looked back at the island. The fiery apocalypse was extraordinary. The shrieks from the Russians were horrifying. But the mission was over. Athers turned to see that only twenty-three of his men had survived, and eight of them were wounded. He smiled encouragingly at his men - then fainted on the deck.
That concludes it unless you want a naval scene in the Baltic. And Ragnar is Peter's best buddy, by the way.
- Lighthearter
Then he remembered a certain discussion with Lord Ravus. And remembered he held a torch in his hand. He slammed his sword point-first into the ground and deftly tossed his torch into his other hand. He sprinted forward, aware that only five men had joined him, seeing and hearing the wave of Russians in the woods. He hurled the torch into the woods, a defiant cry of "Albion!" springing unbidden from his lips. It landed in the top of one of the trees and began to smoke, then the tree burst into flame. The Russian attack ground into a chaotic halt. Athers turned and ran back to his troops.
"It's not going to spread, sir!" one of the men yelled. Athers turned and saw that he was right. The fire would consume one of two trees, but the area was to snowy for it to expand farther then that. He swore in frustration. Then a moving object caught his eye. It was a net with a bunch of barrels in it. The met burst in mid-air as it flew by, and the barrels flew into the flames with pinpoint accuracy. The subsequent explosions made the ground shake for a moment under Athers' feet. The Glorytossed oil into the flames! Captain Drashgorth can think on his feet with the best of them! Athers turned and jumped into the sea as another wave of flaming oil shot in. His men were right behind him.
A moment later he was hauled aboard the Morning Glory on a rope, and looked back at the island. The fiery apocalypse was extraordinary. The shrieks from the Russians were horrifying. But the mission was over. Athers turned to see that only twenty-three of his men had survived, and eight of them were wounded. He smiled encouragingly at his men - then fainted on the deck.
That concludes it unless you want a naval scene in the Baltic. And Ragnar is Peter's best buddy, by the way.
- Lighthearter
You also previously mentioned you wanted one city in Iberia, and I remember you very strongly advocating one Spanish city. Jules isn't the backstabbing barstard that is Catherine, and some good defensive units should keep them occupied trying to take our cities -Longbows can defend very effectively for an incredible amount of time, and archers are good before them. Rome has limited area to expand, it wont take that long for them to convert, and they can auto-convert as well. And like the media, we politicians tell their rivals of their slight forthcomings, and the Confucian matter isn't a slight one if RL clouds your judgement. Anyway, whats so bad about Confucianism? Its a lot better than Christianity, I can tell you that. And I dont usually found Islam as DR is a crappy, overpriced, dead-end tech. And religion is a major matter to criticize - as you said yourself, religion is a touchy subject, so it should be talked about to resolve differences. And if I'm telling you you are a crap leader, how does that mean you are doing a good job? It shows we dont like you as you are already doing a crap job at the beginning of your term.
EDIT: X-Post with LH, and that mission was a disaster! THAT shows your crap ability arya!
EDIT: X-Post with LH, and that mission was a disaster! THAT shows your crap ability arya!
Whosit
Entropic Knight
I've managed to get a semi-decent look at Iberia from the screen shots on page 55. Even though many parts of it are covered by the interface, I think I've picked out the two best spots to settle, given the current city spacing (however, a clearer picture would still probably be helpful).
The first is a city between the Gold and Silver. It will be on a grassland hill, and will grab the Fish north of the city, and the Horses south. It will have a lot of overlap with Birmingham, but it does pick up Gold and Horses (valuable to us), and the Fish will provide enough food to grow. There are also plentiful grasslands to the east that can be cottaged for commerce, and hills for production (2 grassland, 2 plains). I think it can work all of those tiles with just the Fish, although it's a little hard to tell. Should be a pretty decent site.
The second was hard to pick out, and it's a bit cramped, so it's a filler city, but we can still make it useful for us. It should be placed 1 tile east of the Marble east of Norwich. It's off-river, which is sad (the above city impedes placement on the river), but it will grab a Fish in the second ring, and can share some tiles with nearby cities for production. Build a Library, run some scientists, and it should pay for itself.
The Wine city . . . probably want to start out with Farms, actually, rather than cottages, because the only way we'll get anything built here is by whipping. Gotta whip out some culture buildings first, including a Library, then lots of cottages. If we can hold onto it, it should be valuable down the road.
Looking at Ravus, if the Pigs have not been pastured yet, they should be pastured immediately. Pigs > Cows because grassland Pigs are worth 6 food. The town should probably be whipped a few times to get basic infrastructure in place (it does not appear to even have a Granary yet!).
I'm not sure how often you have been using the whip, but glancing at the screen shots, it should probably be used more often. And, remember, Food resources should always be improved first.
Well, those are my thoughts, for now. I imagine I'll have another wall of text sometime soon . . . .
The first is a city between the Gold and Silver. It will be on a grassland hill, and will grab the Fish north of the city, and the Horses south. It will have a lot of overlap with Birmingham, but it does pick up Gold and Horses (valuable to us), and the Fish will provide enough food to grow. There are also plentiful grasslands to the east that can be cottaged for commerce, and hills for production (2 grassland, 2 plains). I think it can work all of those tiles with just the Fish, although it's a little hard to tell. Should be a pretty decent site.
The second was hard to pick out, and it's a bit cramped, so it's a filler city, but we can still make it useful for us. It should be placed 1 tile east of the Marble east of Norwich. It's off-river, which is sad (the above city impedes placement on the river), but it will grab a Fish in the second ring, and can share some tiles with nearby cities for production. Build a Library, run some scientists, and it should pay for itself.
The Wine city . . . probably want to start out with Farms, actually, rather than cottages, because the only way we'll get anything built here is by whipping. Gotta whip out some culture buildings first, including a Library, then lots of cottages. If we can hold onto it, it should be valuable down the road.
Looking at Ravus, if the Pigs have not been pastured yet, they should be pastured immediately. Pigs > Cows because grassland Pigs are worth 6 food. The town should probably be whipped a few times to get basic infrastructure in place (it does not appear to even have a Granary yet!).
I'm not sure how often you have been using the whip, but glancing at the screen shots, it should probably be used more often. And, remember, Food resources should always be improved first.
Well, those are my thoughts, for now. I imagine I'll have another wall of text sometime soon . . . .
MathNerd
High on math (a, not e)
Bravo! Bravo!!!
LH, you should make a novel out of this Realpolitik then show up at a publishing company with it. Really!!!!!
Anyway, the people of England are getting desperate for a religion. Hearing of this bloodshed of their fellow Englishmen and fellow humans is causing them great despair. However, they know about this group called the opposition. They appeal to the opposition for changes in the government.
I speak for the opposition when I say that we are demanding that you beeline COL.
Fail to appease us, and you will fail to appease the public, bringing up the OSR. However, if you give in, you will demonstrate to England how weak the government is.
Choose your poison!!!
LH, you should make a novel out of this Realpolitik then show up at a publishing company with it. Really!!!!!
Anyway, the people of England are getting desperate for a religion. Hearing of this bloodshed of their fellow Englishmen and fellow humans is causing them great despair. However, they know about this group called the opposition. They appeal to the opposition for changes in the government.
I speak for the opposition when I say that we are demanding that you beeline COL.
Fail to appease us, and you will fail to appease the public, bringing up the OSR. However, if you give in, you will demonstrate to England how weak the government is.
Choose your poison!!!
MathNerd
High on math (a, not e)
Whosit seems to be a very neutral and fair person. Thank you for adding some sanity to this mess! 
Lighthearter
President of the United States
MN, you have officially just set a new OSR record at "Fairly Strong".
- Lighthearter
- Lighthearter
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Just a little bit.
I've had some good instructors and a bit of practice.And this should also go to show that even members from parties of vastly different philosophical outlooks can sit down and work on the most important things: Making England the best, most powerful country possible!
Regarding the mission: It was a little hard for me to follow, but were the hostages successfully rescued? I remember an evacuation being mentioned at the end of part 2, and in the beginning of part 3, but since the hostages weren't mentioned in the conclusion, what became of them?
Our own losses are quite saddening, and I would rather avoid a naval conflict, personally.Edit: MN, thank you for the compliment.
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Oh, before I forget: We still want another city on the home island, probably sooner than later for cultural reasons. On that little jutting bit of land, southwest of London (south of the Crab). With a border pop, it can work Sheep, Crabs, and the Fish, so long as Mongol culture doesn't grab it. Accounting for a Lighthouse, the Sheep are +4 food, the Crabs are +5, and the Fish are +6. The city could just work coastal tiles for gold, but it could also feed up to 5 specialists, so it could be a miniature GP Farm. It does have an odd amount of food, though, so we'll either have to find a way to balance it, or just hit Avoid Growth when it reaches max size (so long as we do not forget that Avoid Growth is activated!).
Some more thoughts:
London looks like our only city that can be geared for production at this time. I think that's good, but we will need more. Ravus, perhaps, can be developed for production with either watermills or workshops, although neither are especially powerful until later in the game. I wouldn't chop the forests down, though. At least, not yet, and not without specific reason. As I mentioned earlier, it may simply have to whip out what we need.
Some more thoughts:
London looks like our only city that can be geared for production at this time. I think that's good, but we will need more. Ravus, perhaps, can be developed for production with either watermills or workshops, although neither are especially powerful until later in the game. I wouldn't chop the forests down, though. At least, not yet, and not without specific reason. As I mentioned earlier, it may simply have to whip out what we need.
I'm not sure Cornwall is far enough from London for that to be very effective, but it might be. Somewhere around York would be good as well. Ravus-York has a LOT of food production, and should be used as a settler-spammer/GP Farm. And we need to make it possible for any city to be a commerce one in case the holy city gets there - We want to exploit the commerce there as much as possible.
Whosit
Entropic Knight
I don't understand how this is a factor. How much commerce a city produces is completely unrelated to Shrine Gold. Commerce
commerce is the raw income a city generates, and it can be turned into Beakers science, Gold gold, Culture culture:, or Espionage Points espionage depending on where the respective sliders are.When you build a Shrine in a Holy City, it generates 1
for each city with that Shrine's religion. It produces that no matter where the sliders are, and no matter how much 
is being generated by that city. That will also be multiplied by gold multiplier buildings (Market, Grocer, Bank, Wall Street) no matter how much Commerce commerce is being produced by that city.Therefore, it really doesn't matter where the Holy City is. In fact, we probably do not want it in a city that produces a lot of commerce, because such a city is a better candidate for Oxford University rather than Wall Street (assuming we can keep the Science Slider at a high percentage rate).
And as far as Ravus-York . . . I count a +11 food surplus, which is identical to the coastal city I suggested. However, unlike the coastal city, Ravus-York has plenty of land tiles to work, so it probably isn't best suited for a GP farm. On the other hand, it might be better able to build the buildings required to hire specialists, assuming we never enter Caste System . . . . Could be a toss-up.
@whosit:
Also, the OSR is "Fairly Strong" now?! For crying out loud the opposition is two people!! And all they ever did was make up stuff about the "thoughts of the English people"! If this keeps going on, all one needs to do to up the oppostition meter is yell and invent things!
Also, the OSR is "Fairly Strong" now?! For crying out loud the opposition is two people!! And all they ever did was make up stuff about the "thoughts of the English people"! If this keeps going on, all one needs to do to up the oppostition meter is yell and invent things!
MathNerd
High on math (a, not e)
We've been doing a lot more than you think with PMs and such. And technically, the opposition is 4 people, Cull and Ravus count, even though they aren't in a coalition. By the minute, we keep getting permission from LH to try new, more creative and powerful things.
However, we will admit that now wouldn't be a bad time to start PMing LH about the drawbacks of ML. 
However, we will admit that now wouldn't be a bad time to start PMing LH about the drawbacks of ML.
We are two people making our voices heard. A LOT.
@whosit, the gold multiplier buildings multiply shrine income AND commerce tiles, so theres more money.
EDIT: @LH, the choices seem to be pretty bad, they all damage England in a bad way, especially at this stage, and we dont want a damaged England.
@whosit, the gold multiplier buildings multiply shrine income AND commerce tiles, so theres more money.
EDIT: @LH, the choices seem to be pretty bad, they all damage England in a bad way, especially at this stage, and we dont want a damaged England.
Lighthearter
President of the United States
That IS all you have to do . . . I don't hear so many people supporting the government.
We've been doing a lot more than you think with PMs and such. And technically, the opposition is 4 people, Cull and Ravus count, even though they aren't in a coalition. By the minute, we keep getting permission from LH to try new, more creative and powerful things.
However, we will admit that now wouldn't be a bad time to start PMing LH about the drawbacks of ML.
Probably
And keep asking if you want more details.Just contact me if you think up something for the opposition and I'll figure out how to do it.
- Lighthearter
Whosit
Entropic Knight
The Monks have two members. How powerful are they? And perhaps we can negotiate with them so that they will accept us founding a religion via research? Ravus_Sol, Cull, perhaps you would be willing to engage in discussion?
As for the opposition, well . . . the Vocal Minority always seem to wield quite a bit of power. Since they are calling for a religion via Code of Laws, perhaps they will help us convince the Monks?
@west india man: No, I am sorry, but you are wrong. Play a game to see. Commerce does equal gold. If you have the Science Slider at 100%, and a city is producing 100 units of commerce, that is all beakers and Markets, Grocers, and Banks will not provide any benefits. Commerce will only be multiplied into gold if you are converting it into gold, but we generally do not want the gold "slider" to be high.
As for the opposition, well . . . the Vocal Minority always seem to wield quite a bit of power. Since they are calling for a religion via Code of Laws, perhaps they will help us convince the Monks?
@west india man: No, I am sorry, but you are wrong. Play a game to see. Commerce does equal gold. If you have the Science Slider at 100%, and a city is producing 100 units of commerce, that is all beakers and Markets, Grocers, and Banks will not provide any benefits. Commerce will only be multiplied into gold if you are converting it into gold, but we generally do not want the gold "slider" to be high.
MathNerd
High on math (a, not e)
Cull is on vacation. He can still log on, but pretty rarely. However, both of them (along with me and WIM) would be willing to discuss and possibly negotiate.
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