Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[Whosit]

@whosit: we're one turn from math

Awesome. Also: Like the new avatar.

 

[Aysee]

Thanks, I did it for the "Rate the Avatar" thing.

 

[W|M]

We should go after Currency (more money), CoL and all its prerequisites (more money, probably more religion) and Theocracy. tbh, I'm also a wonder-spammer, but nobody seems to be mentioning them - possibly because we are REXing so much. And the government is extremely weak, three politicians are bringing it down .

 

[Whosit]

I'm sure that no one's mentioning wonder-spamming considering the fact that most of our cities are undefended or under-defended and because we probably lack the number of Workers we need to get our cities developed.

If we want to build any wonders of the world, we should select them with care and make a plan for how we are going to build them, although I think we have more important things to focus on at the moment.

 

[W|M]

(In Leónidas's voice) THIS. IS. NOBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Aysee]

First build priority is defensive units. Second is workers. Then settlers.

 

[Cull]

Spoiler :

I hope that I am not overstepping my bounds as a new voice, but I did not see anything on the first page requiring an official sign-up before posting here. If I simply missed that, feel free to disregard me (or smack me around a bit).

In any case, I have read up on the last fifteen or so pages (and the odd page here or there) and this seems interesting. More to the point, MathNerd, I do not believe that you are adequately familiar with Barbarians and military matters. (By the way, what difficulty level is this game on?)

Barbarians will not enter cultural borders until there is an average of two cities per civilization on the map. Although it seems like no one has posted game screen shots (makes it harder to give good advice), it sounds like that point has already been reached. Granted, Barbarians do not attack in an organized way, and on lower difficulty levels they are a nuisance at worst (well, assuming you actually build military units), but they will attack your undefended/poorly defended cities, they will pillage your resources, slowing growth and development, and they will make your life miserable if you are unprepared.

Again, without seeing any screen shots or power graphs, it's hard to say what the Russians will do in the event of war, but assuming that they will not attack is a good way to get a one-way ticket to oblivion. And since it sounds like the Russians have potential military allies, relying on token defense is doubly unwise.

Just my thoughts. I like to think that I have a good bit of Civ military experience.

Edit: Incidentally, if I can join this (though my participation will be somewhat sporadic since I do not have unlimited free time), the Imperial Party looks to be in my area of interest.

Ooh, Whosit joining?!? Sorry for the Off-Topic bit, but are you are the same Whosit at RB? Ah those city-placements posts make me think so. Oracle Math, get Construction early.

Really have nothing much to say at this point. Keeping an eye on things, generally agreeing with Whosit, and just lurking at this point.

 

[Aysee]

I stand by my revised tech plan:

Construction-currency-aesthetics-drama-code of laws-music-monarchy

 

[Whosit]

Ooh, Whosit joining?!? Sorry for the Off-Topic bit, but are you are the same Whosit at RB? Ah those city-placements posts make me think so.

I am one and the same. Though, perhaps it would be more technically correct to say that I am Whosit from CFC, since I joined this forum before I joined RB. Either way, nice to see I have a little bit of a reputation.

Keeping an eye on things, generally agreeing with Whosit

Do that, and you'll all be fine.

Unfortunately, no time at the moment to add additional comments, but things seem to have slowed down for now, anyway.

 

[MathNerd]

I was PMing Cull, and it turns out that he hadn't read the previous posts. So, disregard his tech plan. (Even though I think the damage has already been done.)

 

[Whosit]

I stand by my revised tech plan:

Construction-currency-aesthetics-drama-code of laws-music-monarchy

Could you tell us why this tech path is the correct one? What is the strategy behind it? How will our civilization benefit from researching these technologies in this order? Please note that I am not challenging the plan, it just occured to me that we've all been proposing tech plans a little out of context (myself included).

Usually, I would propose deciding on an overall strategy for our civilization so that we can decide which technologies best propell us along that course, but since we are not all of one mind for various reasons, I don't expect to come to a general consensus on the issue.

I will propose a short- to medium-term strategy: Military prepardness. Unless LH posts something to the contrary, I am expecting a war declaration or two. Therefore, we should first pursue technologies that are of immediate military benefit to us, namely Construction. As you all know, Catapults can make mincemeat of enemy unit stacks, making it much easier for our own troops to counter-attack.

I am not entirely sure that we need Iron Working immediately, because Swordsmen are not very useful for general combat. Monarchy > Feudalism would be nice, but I'm not certain that we have the economic power to research Feudalism at a reasonable pace.

Currency would be a good idea, though I would recommend opening borders with non-adjacent civilizations, because we will get two benefits: More valuable trade routes, and good relations with other civilizations. If they are non-adjacent, we don't have to worry about Settlers, either.

Perhaps I should revise my previous strategy: Military prepardness and economic development. Unless I misunderstand the Opposition's goals (at least, the Techno-Cultural Party's position), economic development should be a shared goal by all parties.

 

[Aysee]

Construction-catapults, colosseums
Currency-money
aesthetics-wonders, prerequisite to drama (I believe, if not, remove)
Drama-theaters
Music-Great Artist, cathedrals, Sistine Chapel
Code of Laws-courthouses
Monarchy-HR

Of course, if you don't feel that culture matters right now, you can take out the whole middle bit, (aesthetics-music); just that I felt a Great Artist would be nice.

After monarchy:
Feudalism-metal casting-machinery-compass

 

[Whosit]

Quick note: We are producing 36 beakers per turn at 80% science, while losing 1 gold per turn, so this is an unsustainable rate. I'm noting this 'cuz I'm going to look at tech costs. I'm going to assume 31 beakers/turn as a sustainable rate.

I really do not think that culture is something we should focus on now. When you try to do everything, you do everything poorly. We still need to pour so many resources into Workers, some more Settlers, military units, and infrastructure, so I do not think we'll have a lot of leeway to build things like Theatres or Wonders. Nor do I think beelining Music for the Great Artist would greatly benefit us. Granted, it could be used on the Wine city, but that wouldn't really help us overall, and it would just antagonize Rome. I am assuming that we do not want to do that. Yet.

That leaves Construction (350), Currency (400), Code of Laws (350), Monarchy (300).

So, roughly estimated research times: Construction (12), Currency (13), Code of Laws (12).

Currency before Code of Laws is good because the trade route benefit is instant, while Courthouses have to be built (120 hammers). I know some say that Courthouses are not worth building until maintenance is around 8 gpt, but I personally like getting them built as quickly as possible. Markets (150 hammers) are useful only in high-commerce cities (more gold to multiply).

I am in favor of Construction > Currency > Code of Laws for the short-term techs. We get a needed military tech, and we may get to Code of Laws first.

 

[Aysee]

Yeah, I agree to the above tech plan.

Only, if everything runs as planned, we'll have three turns of this administration left after everything's done being researched. What shall we start on? I say Monarchy for Feudalism, but Metal Casting's a good tech too.

EDIT: My strategy for the country: Military Preparedness and Consolidation. Centuries of REXing have left us with a woeful military and deplorable infrastructure. I propose we pursue building up the military and improving overall infrastructure.

 

[ilduce349]

As economic minster, it should be 60% science and 10% espionage

 

[Whosit]

As economic minster, it should be 60% science and 10% espionage

Please explain this. In Civilization, it is almost never optimal to raise the Espionage Slider any higher than 0%. Why do we need those espionage points? Why would those espionage points be more valuable than beakers? Please understand that in Civilization IV, the economy = beakers and that beakers = technology. If we were planning to steal technologies from other civilizations, then spending money on EP might be better, although I generally hear that a Spy Economy is not really profitable on lower difficulties, like this game.

Edit: As for what we start on next . . . . It's hard to say. Do we have to make that decision ahead of time? If I had to pick something, maybe Horseback Riding assuming that we founded a city to pick up the Horses in Spain. Otherwise, perhaps see how quickly we could get Civil Service so that we can run Bureaucracy, which would be good if London is pulling in a lot of commerce. Otherwise, perhaps Feudalism? Early Protective Longbowmen would be useful for defense.

Oh, wait. I never put down the time for Monarchy, so I guess we'd be researching that.

 

[ilduce349]

Its profitable on all difficulties:
1. Prevents enemies from using espionage on you
2. We can see there power, productivity etc in demographics
3. Steal techs
4. After 500 or so ep, YOU CAN SEE THEIR CITIES
5. very useful in wars
6. very useful to destroy an enemies economy

People generally choose science over epsionage because generally the more science the better your civ. But I find the ep to be extremely useful and normally have it on 10% through out the game

 

[ilduce349]

Its profitable on all difficulties:
1. Prevents enemies from using espionage on you
2. We can see there power, productivity etc in demographics
3. Steal techs
4. After 500 or so ep, YOU CAN SEE THEIR CITIES
5. very useful in wars
6. very useful to destroy an enemies economy

People generally choose science over epsionage because generally the more science the better your civ. But I find the ep to be extremely useful and normally have it on 10% through out the game

 

[Aysee]

At this early stage, it's a waste of money.

 

[Whosit]

Its profitable on all difficulties:
1. Prevents enemies from using espionage on you
2. We can see there power, productivity etc in demographics
3. Steal techs
4. After 500 or so ep, YOU CAN SEE THEIR CITIES
5. very useful in wars
6. very useful to destroy an enemies economy

People generally choose science over epsionage because generally the more science the better your civ. But I find the ep to be extremely useful and normally have it on 10% through out the game

1) It can make it more expensive for the enemy to run espionage missions (passive and active) against us, but it will not prevent them from doing so.
2) We can simply focus EP on one civilization until we see their charts. We do get 4 EP from the Palace.
3) We need a lot of EP to steal anything worthwhile.
4) 500 EP assumes that the target is not spending any EP on us. As they spend EP on us, we have to spend much more to see their cities.
5) I assume you mean by starting a revolt in a city? This can be useful if you've forgotten to bring siege weapons, but it's really not a very effective use of commerce.
6) What do you mean, specifically? Destroying tile improvements? That's a nuisance. Poisoning Water/Fomenting Unhappiness? Likewise, a nuisance.

If you want to increase our EP output, I'd rather that we beeline Code of Laws, build Courthouses everywhere (they produce 2 EP each) and maybe even hire a few Spy Specialists (4 EP), even though that is sub-optimal. Basically, the problem I have with this is that 10% EP isn't enough to really be useful, but it diverts enough cash flow from research to slow us down.

I will admit that on a Noble game you can probably get away with this, but I would rather make a stronger play. You even say that it is generally better to put more money into science, so I do not understand why spending money on Espionage is seriously being considered.

If you want to see enemy cities, even building a Spy (and hoping it doesn't get caught) is probably a better investment of resources. You can also build and station spies in your cities to provide a bit of protection against enemy spy action.