Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[MathNerd]

MathNerd originally opposed the idea for building up for a possible offensive but Whosit's proposed war plan gained his support. Political bickering has broken out between the President and Opposition Leader, MathNerd, over one of MathNerd's statements taken out of context. Given that the power of the Opposition is possibly the highest its been in the history of England, this may not fare well in the long-run if cooler heads don't prevail. (As of posting, they have).

I wouldn't say that the plan has "gained [my] support", but its a lot better than randomly building units and hoping they found something to do.

Other than that minor thing, the report sums it up pretty well.

 

[Sonereal]

I wouldn't say that the plan has "gained [my] support", but its a lot better than randomly building units and hoping they found something to do.

Other than that minor thing, the report sums it up pretty well.

Thankee. It was pretty fun to write. (And I thought Ravus wrote the books just to help new players.)

Also, I now see the irony of me talking about a statement taken out of context.

 

[Aysee]

I propose that Sonereal be named as interim Minister of War.

 

[Whosit]

I propose that Sonereal be named as interim Minister of War.

Seconded.

 

[Sonereal]

I propose that Sonereal be named as interim Minister of War.

Seconded.

Thank you two for the votes of confidences. It's been so long since I've played a game using unit stacks that I was actually starting to miss it.

In any case, I've forgotten what a Minister of War is suppose do advise. What to build or what to do with what we have? Or both?

 

[Aysee]

You dictate troop movements and the like.

You can also petition for specific troop builds too.

 

[arya126]

You basicly just tell me what you think we need, what to do with what we have, and how not to lose. Then i take 70% of it and factor it into my plan with the rest of the plan for the empire. i say 70% because i have ideas too. My views count too.

 

[Aysee]

I disagree with peace ASAP. they have given us an opprotunity. we have to take it. Didnt we once think about taking Antium when we discovered rome had gotten to france first? So lets take it!

Well, longterm, I doubt we could stand against the Roman war machine, but as I don't even know how powerful they are...If we want to hit back at the Romans, we'll need to devote a large portion of our efforts at military production.

 

[Nukeknockout]

can't the Purples see? they've gone too far this time. It's time to hit back. We should focus all production into the military,and beat the Romans at their own game,and use this as an opportunity to expand the Empire

 

[arya126]

can't the purples see? They've gone too far this time. It's time to hit back. We should focus all production into the military,and beat the romans at their own game,and use this as an opportunity to expand the empire

seconded!

 

[Whosit]

can't the Purples see? they've gone too far this time. It's time to hit back. We should focus all production into the military,and beat the Romans at their own game,and use this as an opportunity to expand the Empire

Seconded, in spirit. However, as the Interior Minister, I would like to remind the Parliament that England's industry is still in its infancy. Depending on how the fighting goes, we may be better served by fighting to a stalemate, accepting peace, building up our forces, and striking back at a time and place of our choosing. We cannot allow blind passion to dictate our actions. We cannot assume that victory will come easily or swiftly, and remaining at war a moment longer than necessary will only cause our nation undue strain and loss.

 

[Aysee]

And that's exactly why I advocate making peace SOON.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

See! I just knew as soon as i went to bed i was going to come back to choas and loads of posts.

Anywho Sonereal has the most up to date ammendments to the current plan so here it is spoilered with my rambling comments.

Spoiler :

Hey, I learned from the best (and from the propaganda-spewing Liberty Prime from Fallout 3).

Amusingly i'm playing Fallout 3 right now.

Now, for something that isn't me spewing patriotic awesomeness that would make WW2 England blush.

-

The war with the Roman Empire has revealed a serious weakness in England and her European colonies in France and Iberia. At the time of this writing, the idea of "Emergency Powers" is spreading through Parliament. It would call for a massive draft across the Empire and postpone elections indefinitely. This document will detail the possible political, international, economic, domestic, and military realities of the war currently. Note: This report was written on the onset of war and as such, is open to change in the future.

The Military powers of EP are tempting but Arya may have have sacrificed his political trust too much that people may not believe he would willingly give up the EP

Military

The onset of the war has revealed England's military weakness. The Roman Empire has shown itself to be our number one military threat. At the time of this writing, the Romans have unveiled the dangerous catapult. The catapult, when backed up by an army, will easily overwhelm Ravus-York at the current time.

While the Catapult is dangerous it is only one we have seen so far, it may be the first one they have built if we are lucky. An option is to try and trade horsebackriding from someone (mongols?) This fast unit would help immensly with defence due to its speed, strength and flanking ability to weaken cats

Nottingham is possibly a lost cause. Rome will have a much easier time resupplying a force to capture the undefended city than England will have just trying to defend the city and keep the garrison resupplied. While two archers are reportedly being shipped to Nottingham, it is a token gesture at best.

At the least it will be a distraction...

Ravus-York does have a chance of holding out against Rome even though the terrain favors the attacker. The defense relies on quick reinforcement from London, as the Roman Legions will take time to reach the city. Ravus-York, as opposed to its "Roman sister," Atrium, doesn't have a high defense modifier (20% as oppose to Atrium's 50%). Depending on the size of the invasion force, the defenses could be reduced to zero in a short time frame before the invaders charge the city.

How long would walls take to be built? Could we whip them out as well? IF Ravus-York is looking to be their focus of attack we should shift odds in our favour there.

A naval invasion of Great Britain doesn't seem to be in the cards for Rome. A naval landing in Iberia, however, is. If Rome has the naval capacity to do so, they could land a force in Iberia and the war would be lost.

The only naval defensive plan that has been proposed at the time of writing is to push research into an experimental ship design called a "trireme". This ship, if stationed at the Gibraltar Strait, would trap the Roman Navy inside the Mediterranean Sea and prevent any invasion of Iberia.

Yes that was my plan just to keep them away from england. However they could just land on the eastern strait of iberia as well... If we have enough time it would be nice to get 2 tiremes and send the second to actually start a barrage of rome. This would let us keep an eye on what they are doing and weaken it for the eventual blitz

President Arya has come up with a military plan. It calls for the training of archers through the European colonies and the training of sword infantry in Britain. His military plan is to A.) Defeat the invasion force then B.) Send a counterattack. The industrial capacity to train the optimal number of troops in time to capitalize on a Roman defeat is unknown at the time or writing.

One thing nobody has mentioned is theocracy. If we are turning our whole society to a war footing then this will allow all the units to start with a promotion. Quite wonderful for our defensive archers. (personally i would have liked a term in Organised religion to build infrastructure and to convert the mongols and the carthagians but war makes fools of us all)

The only cities that would not be training units would be those without granaries. This will greatly reduce defensive effectiveness in Europe. He also calls for training of axe infantry in Birmingham following the city training two archer units. The effectiveness of the plan depends on the production output of the city. The plan for the Britain island is to train fifteen (15) sword infantry with Liverpool training axe infantry once there are ten (10) sword infantry.

Item Four on President Arya's list is to ship one (1) unit of swordsmen and axemen each to Nottingham. Given Nottingham's lack of defensive modifiers, this may be a sound decision.

Worthwhile

Item Five demands that a force of two (2) more archer units will be shipped to Nottingham to aid in the defense. If Nottingham does not fall to Rome before then, this could open up a northern front. Meanwhile, all archer units in Britain are to be transported to Ravus-York in France. Following this, constant shipping of swordsmen from Britain to Ravus-York will commence until the counter-attack force is at full strength.

Item Six stipulates that the warrior unit in Normandy will be ordered to return to Ravus-York and rearm itself to become an axe unit unless a large number of chariots approaches from Atrium, in which case the warrior will upgrade to something substantial. Ravus-York is to become a fortress city.

I thought The Warrior was actually in france ? either way it should be upgraded, in my mind it should become a chariot if it can. i forget the upgrade options. But a fast unit could be helpful for hit and run options or scouting rome or even a mad dash to pillage iron if the romans do have it.

Item Seven calls for the defenses of the area in unclaimed northeastern Iberia to be fortified should the Romans choose the land route through unclaimed France.

Item Eight orders threatened workers in the countryside to return to their respective city if invasion looks sure. This order is meant for France, but applies to the entirety of the Empire.

Item Ten brings up the question of whether or not the German iron is being exploited by Rome. If it is, the Romans will have access to Praetorian Legions.

Still no answer from LH can we 'see' any iron in their territory?

Item Eleven stipulates that slave labor and drafts will be used as long as the population of the city stays at three (3) or above. Two (2) in emergencies.

Item Twelve orders for continual funding of Metal Casting, followed by Monarchy, then Feudalism with the ultimate goal being to build longbows.

Seems this might have changed for a sidestep into construction if we can't trade it elsewhere.

Item Thirteen demands an inquiry to how big the Roman invasion force is. Currently, it is only one (1) catapult.

Item Fourteen stipulates that the axe unit in Norway will continue exploring and once its job is completed, it will return to the Oslo area. The galley in the area will sail to Iberia.

the Axeman up in viking territory... i'd personaly like to see it make a heroic landing in eastern germany. Pillage anything important like iron/bronze/horses then fortify the most important. This distraction would be helpful in allowing us time to construct an army.

Item Fifteen orders the complete halt of expansion into unclaimed territory.

(Note: No chariots are to be built)

Yes why is that? Also no spearmen. You should at least build one of each in Ravus-york if it is to be our site of defence.

Domestic

Even if Nottingham is not burned to the ground by Romans, England's people will still suffer. Massive drafts and use of slave labor will greatly reduce England's population which will have significant effects for the post-war economy.

The little infrastructure built up around Ravus-York in France has a good chance of being destroyed by invaders. Should the road networks be destroyed, England's own counter-attack will be bogged down.


Economy

No matter how the war plays itself out, England will suffer economically. The massive use of slave labor and drafts will reduce the workforce greatly. In France, the countryside may be pillaged by invaders. The massive military build-up will surely result in an increase of maintaining the army.

The only two ways to make up for the possible economic problems would be a counter-attack. The countryside around Atrium could be pillaged and fill the treasury or the city itself could be taken. However, should both be done at the same time, there will be hefty maintenance costs that won't be eased by a functioning countryside.

We only need to hold out till that second prophet pops in London i'd like to know how long that could take so we could make plans around it.

International

At the time of writing, what will happen internationally is up for discussion. At best, this will be a limited war fought in France, the Mediterranean, and Germany. At worst, Russia or the Vikings could come to the aid of their "Brothers and Sisters of the Faith." Should this happen, Britain will become open to invasion by Vikings and in a few years, England could be fighting against the might of the Roman Legions and Russian Army in France.

Seeing as Russia has lost the Buddist holy city we can consider them in a war of some kind with a mystery agressor. They should be no bother for awhile. Vikings should stay neautral as long as we don't provoke them... To counter this i'd say get the Irish into the war with us. Give them whatever tech they want. This won't do much long term as the Irish will probably only send small pillaging groups into rome. But those troops landing in france will help distract the enemy. If possible do some trading with carthage. We won't get them into the war but if we get some open borders and trade some resources then they may be less likely to attack.

National Politics

MathNerd, Whosit, and ilDuce have voiced their opposition to the idea. Whosit has also voiced his opposition to the President's war plan.

MathNerd originally opposed the idea for building up for a possible offensive but Whosit's proposed war plan gained his support. Political bickering has broken out between the President and Opposition Leader, MathNerd, over one of MathNerd's statements taken out of context. Given that the power of the Opposition is possibly the highest its been in the history of England, this may not fare well in the long-run if cooler heads don't prevail. (As of posting, they have).

We have 11 turns to election people. Suck it up till then

Any further report will be premature.

All items brought up in this report is subject to change.


-END OF REPORT-

Now. Main questions that no body has spoken up about.

- Thocracy. Are we going to implement it to get better units? Personaly i think it's worth it. Especially for the archers.

- War allies. The Irish. I'd personally give them whatever they want to get them to join in. They are quite frankly. Our only friends.

- Counter Units. No one seems to be bringing this up. Apart from the natural axmen vs. Prat. Arguement. Chariots will kill axemen and spearmen will kill chariots. Also Horsemen will flank catapults. I like to see a well diversified army so i'd like us to have at least one or two of these units.

- Catapults vs. Mass producing vs Pillaging. These are the three ways to play early game. I'm more of a catapult or pillaging man. Although i know my friend in RL prefers the mass army. This normally means he plays rome. When i pointed out that method would work best having Boudica leading Rome the evil cackle haunted me for weeks... But anyway i'd like catapults but untill we get them i'd like a pillaging force (perhaps 1 axeman 1 spearmen and 1 chariot) to go in and see what havoc they can perform. Arya seems to be a supporter of the mass army with his plans of mainly swordsmen. (people had brought up mass and cats but not pillaging so i thought i'd throw in my extra)

- Counter-Attack Targets. No-one has laid out much. I assume we will take antium at the least as Rome is a fighter that will need his nose bloodied before considering peace. If we get the Tireme to bombard Rome then we could do a second lightning strike at the capital when this happens.

Personally i fear Rome can never be trusted yet is useful as a border bumper against Russia. They would be useful as vassals... But for that we would be best taking three cities. Antium, Rome and the German city. Then forcing capitulation (as we would have feaudalism by then)

I trust Whosit's math, so lets make Axes instead of Archers then.

I gave the exact same math AGES ago! You didn't believe it then! You were all for outproducing them with the cheaper archers! What's changed? Or are you playing nice with the imperial party Also, i'm an issue? hehe

-

Things we need from LH
- Rome Troop placements (Visable)
- Rome Resources (Visable and in fog of war)
- diplomacy screen or a listing of who hates us, is cautious with us and is pleased. (Rome caught us by suprise i thought they were only cautious.)
- Trade options, does anyone have construction or horseback riding?

Yeah Yeah LH mock my administration when i didn't even want it thats just low man.

 

[Sonereal]

- Thocracy. Are we going to implement it to get better units? Personaly i think it's worth it. Especially for the archers.

In the long-run, yes. How far away are we from theocracy?

- War allies. The Irish. I'd personally give them whatever they want to get them to join in. They are quite frankly. Our only friends.

But hardly useful. I doubt the Irish could do much to help us.

- Counter Units. No one seems to be bringing this up. Apart from the natural axmen vs. Prat. Arguement. Chariots will kill axemen and spearmen will kill chariots. Also Horsemen will flank catapults. I like to see a well diversified army so i'd like us to have at least one or two of these units.

The reason chariots aren't being built is for besides being a counter to axes, they're useless. Swordsmen are versatile.

- Catapults vs. Mass producing vs Pillaging. These are the three ways to play early game. I'm more of a catapult or pillaging man. Although i know my friend in RL prefers the mass army. This normally means he plays rome. When i pointed out that method would work best having Boudica leading Rome the evil cackle haunted me for weeks... But anyway i'd like catapults but untill we get them i'd like a pillaging force (perhaps 1 axeman 1 spearmen and 1 chariot) to go in and see what havoc they can perform. Arya seems to be a supporter of the mass army with his plans of mainly swordsmen. (people had brought up mass and cats but not pillaging so i thought i'd throw in my extra)

I love pillaging. It allows to keep the sliders at maximum if done properly.

- Counter-Attack Targets. No-one has laid out much. I assume we will take antium at the least as Rome is a fighter that will need his nose bloodied before considering peace. If we get the Tireme to bombard Rome then we could do a second lightning strike at the capital when this happens.

I would want to see if Rome could be invaded. It may be cheaper to send 7 swordsmen in three galleons to sack Rome then to send 15 swordsmen to fight Antium (I spelled it right this time!)

Personally i fear Rome can never be trusted yet is useful as a border bumper against Russia. They would be useful as vassals... But for that we would be best taking three cities. Antium, Rome and the German city. Then forcing capitulation (as we would have feaudalism by then)

Bumper states are always nice but Russia is being crushed by an unknown invader. That's why I rather Rome keep Antium and we use Rome as a jumping stone to Northern Africa (way into the future of course).

That's another reason why not to annex Rome outright even if we could. Imagine Rome being the wall blocking invaders from the east. That would leave only Carthage as a possible threat and we would be the number #1 contender to reaching North America.

Normandy is in France.

 

[Whosit]

We have Theology, so Theocracy is available, but recall that it is an expensive civic that only works in cities that have the state religion present. We have, what, two, maybe three cities with Christianity? And we have not officially adopted it, either (that creates a whole new slew of problems).

Lighthearter, if you could, open diplomacy with Russia, and see if they will declare war on anyone else. If they say "we have enough on our hands," that should confirm that they are currently at war.

Anyway, it's 2 turns of Anarchy to get into Theocracy. Could be worth it if our core cities all already have Christianity. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[Sonereal]

We have Theology, so Theocracy is available, but recall that it is an expensive civic that only works in cities that have the state religion present. We have, what, two, maybe three cities with Christianity? And we have not officially adopted it, either (that creates a whole new slew of problems).

In the time it would take to get through anarchy (twice), the Romans will have already been at our doorsteps hammering at the door. In any case, we're better off not going into anarchy and trying out best to keep the Romans out of England and hopefully get a peace deal that isn't too bad for us. They'll more than likely demand Ravus-York which is usually weighed the same as a tech or a heap of gold. If we take either Rome or Antium however, we'll get something in return like much needed gold.

In any case, assuming we take either Rome, Antium, or Rome's third city and get them to surrender, we should beeline feudalism and go back to war to force them to capitulate and then give them back whatever city we took.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

In the long-run, yes. How far away are we from theocracy?

We allreayd have it. We needed Thocracy to found Christianity. It takes a turn of anarchy to implement so Arya was holding of previously. (Remember we are on normal speed so that is only one turn of anarchy not two also because of a little, um, act i performed earlier most of our cities are Christian, Ravus-York in france, London and liverpool are, i don't know about spain i'd have to check the pictures from a few pages back. But you are correct that i'd forgotten we weren't a christian state yet, that would mean two turns of anarchy... hmmm. Oh well people can discuss it. I still think it's worth it for an extra promotion for every unit from our two unit pumps in england and scotland.)

But hardly useful. I doubt the Irish could do much to help us.

I doubt they would do much either, but i'd prefer to nurse them as a usless ally in the continent then have them turn on us suddenly while our army is in europe and the British Isles are undefended.

The reason chariots aren't being built is for besides being a counter to axes, they're useless. Swordsmen are versatile.

I just like them for their speed when having a defencive war. But i agree they are less useful then Horsemen

I love pillaging. It allows to keep the sliders at maximum if done properly.

Lets go pillaging!

I would want to see if Rome could be invaded. It may be cheaper to send 7 swordsmen in three galleons to sack Rome then to send 15 swordsmen to fight Antium (I spelled it right this time!)

we'd need four galleys as galleons don't come for ages. As long as we get catapults antium should fall with minimul losses. But i'd like to get that tireme into Roman waters to see what they have first.

Bumper states are always nice but Russia is being crushed by an unknown invader. That's why I rather Rome keep Antium and we use Rome as a jumping stone to Northern Africa (way into the future of course).

I wouldn't say crushed. They are still high on the scoreboard. It may have been burned to the ground by barbarians or Russia may have stolen buddism and not founded it themselves, someone could have taken it back. We don't know yet. So you are a fan of Northern Africa? I normally expand to turkey and go through the middle east.

That's another reason why not to annex Rome outright even if we could. Imagine Rome being the wall blocking invaders from the east. That would leave only Carthage as a possible threat and we would be the number #1 contender to reaching North America.

So was that a yay or a nay on the Rome Vassal idea? I'm usure if you are using anex to indicate taking roman lands ourself or vassalising them. I do like to go to america but you are forgetting The Irish Mongols as well.

Normandy is in France.

Doh! i Thought i'd caught that when i re-read through it all. I was getting confused with Normandy and Netherlands. That will teach me to rush.

I didn't think anyone else would be on, I normally have alternate time zones to the rest of these people so i miss the choas. Nice to see you are closer to my zone.

 

[Sonereal]

We allreayd have it. We needed Thocracy to found Christianity. It takes a turn of anarchy to implement so Arya was holding of previously. (Remember we are on normal speed so that is only one turn of anarchy not two)

Oi'. I'm tired.

I've never played on normal but two or three turns of anarchy right now would be pretty detrimental regardless. Especially since only half our cities would benefit.

I doubt they would do much either, but i'd prefer to nurse them as a usless ally in the continent then have them turn on us suddenly while our army is in europe and the British Isles are undefended.

Once we're finish with this Roman business, we should come up with something to keep the Irish from becoming turncoats. Something that involves them bowing down to Britannia every morning.

I just like them for their speed when having a defencive war. But i agree they are less useful then Horsemen

They're pretty useful when there's a limit of how many units can exist on a tile at once but that's for a different mod. In any case, chariots would've been useful if we had them at the onset but to spend hammers on them right now may be premature.

Lets go pillaging!

If we can completely destroy their infrastructure in Germany, many English children will sleep easily tonight.

we'd need four galleys as galleons don't come for ages. As long as we get catapults antium should fall with minimul losses. But i'd like to get that tireme into Roman waters to see what they have first.

I meant three galleys and six swordsmen.

I rather take Rome if we can but Antium is an easier target.

I wouldn't say crushed. They are still high on the scoreboard. It may have been burned to the ground by barbarians or Russia may have stolen buddism and not founded it themselves, someone could have taken it back. We don't know yet.

It's still a sign of things to lose a holy city to barbarians. They're probably working to get it back if it hasn't already been razed. Either way, they're probably busy and less of a threat than I thought.

So you are a fan of Northern Africa? I normally expand to turkey and go through the middle east.

Huge fan of North Africa. It would be easy for us to expand into late and plus, Carthage could become a very real threat if they close their borders to us.

So was that a yay or a nay on the Rome Vassal idea? I'm usure if you are using anex to indicate taking roman lands ourself or vassalising them. I do like to go to america but you are forgetting The Irish Mongols as well.

Irish....Mongols? I missed something.

When I say annex, I mean take over the land and manage it directly. I rather turn them into a buffer (note to everyone: The next Realpolitik should use a mod with BetterAI so our vassals are useful).

In the end, I would want to turn Rome into a buffer zone against everybody to the east (meaning that we take a city then probably give it back so they're not useless). Annex the Irish (it would make our lives so much easier). Then take half of North Africa and turning Carthage to a rump state and a buffer zone.

Doh! i Thought i'd caught that when i re-read through it all. I was getting confused with Normandy and Netherlands. That will teach me to rush.

I didn't think anyone else would be on, I normally have alternate time zones to the rest of these people so i miss the choas. Nice to see you are closer to my zone.

I'm up late actually.

I'm messing around with the Giant Earth Map is worldbuilder in RoM: AND.

Wow! I just found a really cool version in a mod I'm playing where civs randomly spawn at certain points on the map. Not exactly accurate (Hungarians in South Americans and Danes in North America) but the map is huge. (

 

[Gruekiller]

Oh, dear God. I missed like 30 pages. ._. Can anyone give me a quick recap?

 

[mechaerik]

Lots of arguing, the Romans declared war. Russians are neutral at this point. We founded Christianity but haven't converted. Thats pretty much it.