Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[Whosit]

Thanks a ton, LH. I'll need a moment to digest the information, but I'll come up with a few recommendations soon.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Oh my god Lighthearter you are a god! Those screenshots really really help. Damn my math was way out on the Prophet. Unless we got a temple and priest running it will be another two elections till it gets here.

Points of interest:
- I notice the Fish havn't been taken out yet, but we did have a lighthouse so sucks to us.
- Nearly all of our cities are christian now. So we could go for benifits from Theocracy but like has been said it would take two turns for both declaring the civic and the religion.
- London has no defence
- ALL OF IBERIA HAS GRANERIES! finally the first part of the infrastructure is in place. With the workers from england that should be up and running soon.
- Rome has a lot of lands but not as much as feared.
- They have prats, crap
- Power graph is interesting. They don't outnumber us two to one! Also Arya got us to a better military then Peter! We could have gotten our revenge if not for Rome.

@Mechaerik
I'm watching you! You take up some hammer and nails and i'll be onto you! either way i'd have my revenge for either way i'd 'arise more powerful then you could possibly imagine!'

you're a good man Mechaerik but Tv tropes will ruin your life

I don't think you are a suspect. It's mainly down to me, Arya and Ilduce

@Mathnerd
Good plan on checking back at the old posts. Hope you find something suspcious.

 

[JoeMacUnGee]

Actually, I don't see anything to worry about. LH made it sound like there was an army marching on France and from what I'm seeing, that's not close to the case. The only thing is worrisome is the fact that Rome's Army is twice as big as ours.

Indeed, the updated situation reports are not nearly as bleak as the hair-on-fire posts here would indicate. In fact, if leadership quit building BUILDINGS while we are at war, we may have a chance to hang on.

Edit: I count 6 or seven archers and an axeman in the French provinces. That would be more than enough to defend Iberia from aggression. Also, whips of archers in iberia. Also, abandonment of the french provinces would lower the debt of maintenance, perhaps helping the economy. Retreat to Iberia, regroup and launch the counter-attack from there directly toward Rome herself.

 

[arya126]

Okay lets start commenting on this long list of comments. First:

1. I AM NOT THE CULPRIT. If my hunch of LH posting it around the time it was sent to him is correct, then i could not possibly be it. I was not on when it was announced. But that is not concrete proof i admit. Another answer, why would i risk being discovered of sabotage DURING MY OWN TERM? It makes no sense. i value legacies greatly, and i would not risk scarring mine while i was in office.

2. I'm responsible for the situation in Iberia? Are you seious? You DO KNOW that i do not have direct control of the game right? LH follows what i tell him to do. I have no way of knowing if he does them to the letter or if he nnovates while he is playing. But first off, i was only in office for 19 turns before the war with rome. The first 15, well ill post the plans for both if i still have them. Not sure if i deleted them to make room for new PM's or not. But if you want to know what i was left with after the Cull adminstration, go look at the updates. What Iberia looks like now if a HELLUVA lot better than it was. Plus, we were in the face of a threat of war from russia. Basicly i used the first 15 to build some units, some workers, and a few more settlers. Plus granaries here and there. Then, the second turnset was meant to improve the empire farther, but rome messed that up.

Plus, that is an older screenie. Alot could have changed in 11 turns. Dont take that screen as absolute. Also, be aware i do not have ultimate control over this realm. i dont even play the game. I can only pray to stonehenge and Christ that LH follows what i ask.

3. Before you say who is responsible for the 'military' and 'Iberian' situations, ask your slef some questions. Who is playing the game? How much of Whosits advice did i take in? How much more could i have done for it? Because LH is playing the game, i listened to ALOT of whosits advice, and i did alot about these things. I can only do so much in so much time though.

4. My suspects are (since MN was wrong, anyone can perform sabotage. Hell, a buddhist could have snuck in and done it) ILDUCE AND CULL.

My reasons:

4a. Ilduce is against my adminstration. He has made that clear, even though he was part of it. Also, if you take silence as a cause of guilt, he has not posted on this either. Be fair with blame. He is a likely suspect.

4b. Cull has been talking of privateers. Also, he IS NOT PART OF THE OPPOSITION, no matter what MN thinks. He has been neutral until recently where he has become a pirate ninja. I think he even mentioned privateering. Maybe this is a sign to end the war with rome or something, just as Ravus's actions were awake up call to us 'bickering'. I think Cull is a VERY LIKELY suspect.

4c. I am the president. I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO NAME THE SUSPECTS. The president is still president until the elections are over. Nobody else can say someone is a 'suspect'. they can say that is who they thnk it is.

4d. I oppose an opposition member heading the invesigation in the case it was someone in the opposition. I support agent Lighthearter.

5. We need to hold Ravus-York. If it is razed, the holy city is GONE. We cannot affor that blow. Plus, LH is going to resolve the battle in the qway that i choose. Not on th CIV battlefield in france.

6. I would like to let LH know that i think that screenshots ARE NOT NESSACERY. Would a real ruler have ths kind of info? No. Would he be able to snap his fingers and have info right away? No. He would have to work with what he knows, and LH has told us what we need to know. We are not generals. We are politicians that are in london at the moment. We are not on the battlefield, and therefore have no way to gain such intel as you ask for.

Sonereal, you havent even been here in the past adminstartions, so dont blame someone for stuff that you werent even present for.

Um i think thats it, but i will comment more if i have to.

 

[W|M]

LH, what did you mention about a massive stack?

If you don't tell me who it is, I will eat a baby.

 

[Sonereal]

- Power graph is interesting. They don't outnumber us two to one!

I think I'm reading the graph wrong. It looks like Rome's line is going off the charts while our line seems to have been curving upwards before dropping down a bit near the end, indicating we lost a battle somewhere.

Indeed, the updated situation reports are not nearly as bleak as the hair-on-fire posts here would indicate. In fact, if leadership quit building BUILDINGS while we are at war, we may have a chance to hang on.

Actually, I think we're cool.

 

[JoeMacUnGee]

Okay lets start commenting on this long list of comments.

5. We need to hold Ravus-York. If it is razed, the holy city is GONE. We cannot affor that blow. Plus, LH is going to resolve the battle in the qway that i choose. Not on th CIV battlefield in france.

Egads!! You're right! We can't abandon York!

A thousand prayers of penance for me, apparently!


The whip. We need to use the whip and consolidate forces SOMEWHERE where they can be effective in bulk rather than onesy-twosey.

 

[Lighthearter]

Didn't say a massive stack. Said a massive ARMY. Most of it's in Germany on its way. I'm serious - I saw about 10 units there during the raiding.

- Lighthearter

 

[Sonereal]

1. I AM NOT THE CULPRIT. If my hunch of LH posting it around the time it was sent to him is correct, then i could not possibly be it. I was not on when it was announced. But that is not concrete proof i admit. Another answer, why would i risk being discovered of sabotage DURING MY OWN TERM? It makes no sense. i value legacies greatly, and i would not risk scarring mine while i was in office.

Which is why I said it sounded funny.

2. I'm responsible for the situation in Iberia? Are you seious? You DO KNOW that i do not have direct control of the game right? LH follows what i tell him to do. I have no way of knowing if he does them to the letter or if he nnovates while he is playing. But first off, i was only in office for 19 turns before the war with rome. The first 15, well ill post the plans for both if i still have them. Not sure if i deleted them to make room for new PM's or not. But if you want to know what i was left with after the Cull adminstration, go look at the updates. What Iberia looks like now if a HELLUVA lot better than it was. Plus, we were in the face of a threat of war from russia. Basicly i used the first 15 to build some units, some workers, and a few more settlers. Plus granaries here and there. Then, the second turnset was meant to improve the empire farther, but rome messed that up.

Should've asked for screenshots but the past administrations didn't do a bang-up job either. You're only flaw is that you kept building settlers by the sound of it.

3. Before you say who is responsible for the 'military' and 'Iberian' situations, ask your slef some questions. Who is playing the game? How much of Whosits advice did i take in? How much more could i have done for it? Because LH is playing the game, i listened to ALOT of whosits advice, and i did alot about these things. I can only do so much in so much time though.

Whose the President? I'm going to blame you the same way I blame previous administrations.

5. We need to hold Ravus-York. If it is razed, the holy city is GONE. We cannot affor that blow. Plus, LH is going to resolve the battle in the qway that i choose. Not on th CIV battlefield in france.

Yes we can. We can afford the lost of a city that's only holy to the Irish and some Englishmen. What we cannot afford is something foolish that results in us to beaten up to hold Iberia which is vastly more important.

6. I would like to let LH know that i think that screenshots ARE NOT NESSACERY. Would a real ruler have ths kind of info? No. Would he be able to snap his fingers and have info right away? No. He would have to work with what he knows, and LH has told us what we need to know. We are not generals. We are politicians that are in london at the moment. We are not on the battlefield, and therefore have no way to gain such intel as you ask for.

A decent ruler would. You're confusing reality with a game. London knew what was going on strategically during the Hundred Years War for crying out loud. And if the leader doesn't, his minsters would have that information.

Sonereal, you havent even been here in the past adminstartions, so dont blame someone for stuff that you werent even present for.

Don't you come at me like that. I can see the outcome of previous administrations and how its affected us now. That's like saying I can't criticize the Reagan administration because I was born after it ended.


As for Ravus-York, if the Christians want to hold it so bad, then I say we whip the entire city down to 1 point and let them defend it while the rest of the army holds onto something of value that would be hard to get back if lost.

 

[Whosit]

In fact, if leadership quit building BUILDINGS while we are at war, we may have a chance to hang on.

It would be a grievous mistake to neglect infrastructure, even in time of war. If nothing else, Granaries are essential to help cities cope with the whipping they may be forced to endure. Never, ever neglect the economy and infrastructure, or all the troops you raise will quickly drain the coffers.

6. I would like to let LH know that i think that screenshots ARE NOT NESSACERY. Would a real ruler have ths kind of info? No. Would he be able to snap his fingers and have info right away? No. He would have to work with what he knows, and LH has told us what we need to know. We are not generals. We are politicians that are in london at the moment. We are not on the battlefield, and therefore have no way to gain such intel as you ask for.

If knowing what is happening in the game is unimportant, why are we even using Civilization? Why doesn't LH just make everything up? And a leader can know what is happening in his empire! There are messengers, advisers, and ministers whose jobs are to keep track of the many things going on and report it to the leader. Again, maybe I've misunderstood the point of this game since I have not participated in any other realpolitik system, but if we can't make decisions based on actual knowledge, then this whole thing is just LH playing a game and feeding us tid-bits to argue over, which doesn't strike me as terribly fun.

Anyway, more on the actual situation in a bit.

 

[JoeMacUnGee]

That's like saying I can't criticize the Reagan administration because I was born after it ended.

<off-topic rant>I did, and the man turned this nation around. </off-topic rant>

As for Ravus-York, if the Christians want to hold it so bad, then I say we whip the entire city down to 1 point and let them defend it while the rest of the army holds onto something of value that would be hard to get back if lost.

This. Whip it to 1, the surplus pop does nothing for us now, but the archers/axes would.

 

[MathNerd]

Arya, this is ridiculous. We are allowed to say whatever we want, whether you like it or not. Your term's almost over, and the opposition is refreshed in a new term.

So sue me:

I consider Arya, Ilduce, Ravus, and Aysee to be suspects.

 

[mechaerik]

Time for some war-timey posters!

Hopefully that will boost enlistment.

 

[arya126]

I dont know why a barracks is being built, but LH takes the iniative sometimes and i mostly let him do it as i approve most of the time. But we need the granaries.

LH gave us what we needed to know in order to make decisions. A large army is coming towards Ravus-York. What do we do? We dont need exact stats, we just need to make a decison. If the info is vague, give a vague answer and hope that LH is a better stratgeist in CIV then in tactical mode.

How am i confusing reality with a game? I have been tryng to say that all along in various forms of wording, and only now that i use the same tact that people recognize this. i think that we cant avoid mixing RL and the game.

Also, i am aware that LH can make up whatever he wants. (10 units isnt a massive army. Even for praets.). Since we are fighting the battle in an alternate way other than the game, i dont think it matters if they ahve a stack or not. LH will probably just delete a bunch of units depending on the outcome of the battle.

Thank you ravus for recognizing that i did do something. I started Infrastructure projects. I started the buildup of a military, although it couldnt match rome, that hasnt been the main aim. I was under the impression that russia was the main enemy as they had been the ones featured in crisis after crisis. But i have never seen the power screen from Lh before, so these are truly precious screens.

I need to put something out there. how about we trade theology to egypt for those techs they have? I forget what exactly they were. gonna go check.

EDIT: Monarchy/HBR

 

[Ravus_Sol]

It would be a grievous mistake to neglect infrastructure, even in time of war. If nothing else, Granaries are essential to help cities cope with the whipping they may be forced to endure. Never, ever neglect the economy and infrastructure, or all the troops you raise will quickly drain the coffers.

Agreed, i myself think Ravus-York could do with a set of walls and perhaps a spy to keep track of the army. Barracks are the next infrastructure component during a war, but they could take too long to build. It's why i'm tempted to advocate Theocracy. The 2 extra exp could be a nice edge. As well as the extra happyness from relgion (to stave of whip unhappyness)

If knowing what is happening in the game is unimportant, why are we even using Civilization? Why doesn't LH just make everything up? And a leader can know what is happening in his empire! There are messengers, advisers, and ministers whose jobs are to keep track of the many things going on and report it to the leader. Again, maybe I've misunderstood the point of this game since I have not participated in any other realpolitik system, but if we can't make decisions based on actual knowledge, then this whole thing is just LH playing a game and feeding us tid-bits to argue over, which doesn't strike me as terribly fun.

Anyway, more on the actual situation in a bit.

Its more about the human factor. In a plain game of civ you have just the computer. All the commands you give will be exact and all the information you get will be exact. Here you won't get any unless you ask. Some information may be misleading and your commands may get implemented differently then how you expected. Lighthearter adds that twist of human nature which allways happens when a real civilization is being run. Nothing ever goes to plan properly.

-

Ravus-York might never starve down to one. It has huge whip capabilities. currently has 64 hammers to burn. The overflow could get a wall as well in one turn. (we have stone and are defencive so they are super cheap) Personally i think Ravus-York is a good lure to our enemies. While it stands they won't go for the weaker Spain.

-

The joys of being blamed for every wrong of your administration huh Arya? The upside is you get the praise from the good bits too.

-

I'll declare one vote for the Stonehenge Monks
I'll keep the second in reserve for now. Need to see what happens politically.

-

EDIT: On the potential trade with Egypt
Theology for Hereditary Rule & Horseback Riding
I suppose it would be up to the vote. The two techs we could get would both be good war time techs but we may be giving up the chance for the Aposolistic Palace by trading the tech away. Egypt could build it while we are at war. It's a risk. (personally i'm against as i like the AP, if we need happyness like HR we can just decalre our religion)

 

[Aysee]

Argh... I take a few hours off to watch the World Cup and 4 pages is what happens

Anyways, the first thing to do is to stop pointing fingers. Yes, the previous administrations could have done better but now's not the time to argue about it.

Well, I know this is noble, but does Rome have any galleys? Everyone's talking as if France is the only battlefield, but if Caesar lands a few praets in Iberia, it's going to ruin our day big time. Does he have OB with Hannibal? If he does, see if Hannibal will cancel it. (If Caesar can get an invasion force up to the British isles...*shiver*)

We DO have horse, right? So lets trade Peter for HB! Like others have said Horse archers are useful for flanking catapults.

I actually think that the situation isn't that bad. If we can whip a few axes in Ravus-York and blow off the first wave, we might actually have a chance of getting out NOT the obvious loser.

On the sabotage: First off, we need to stop pointing fingers. If we do, it just sows distrust and dissension which is exactly what Rome wants us to have. Dissension slows down the decision making process, which would be detrimental in war time. We must simply accept that there's bad people in here, but the good people are in the majority, and on the assumption of the next administration, we'll put in some serious investigation. Any done now will just have it turn into a witch hunt. I also promise to partially fund this investigation, even if it means selling my estate in Scotland

We should try to get Peter and Ragnar to attack Rome (use the "Why don't you attack___" in diplomacy). Opening up a second front will be very beneficial. I still advocating making quick peace with honor, and then getting our revenge.

 

[arya126]

Peter and ragnar have already attacked rome havent they???

 

[Ravus_Sol]

STOP THE PRESSES!

there are only two exits from Italy. That huge mountain range is a big roadblock for them. They end up going east and all the way round and back through germany, or through a small pass to the west near antium. If we manage to take Antium and fortify that hill we would cut of all fast reinforcements. Interesting.

Edit: Also yes Ragnar and Peter have aparantly delacred war. Another trade option would be to try and get Ragnar to like us again so he would trade us construction

 

[MathNerd]

Obviously, Arya didn't mind my direct disobeying of his orders. Thanks!

Second, we need to figure out who did it, since if we don't, the infiltrator/betrayer will be able to destroy us from the inside. EDIT: However, I feel that we've reached a stalemate, and I think we'll need to put away the topic of who the suspect was for now.

 

[Whosit]

OK, let's start with an overall strategic assessment:

We're not nearly as bad off as LH's first post led us to believe, but we're still not in a good position since we know that Rome has a large, catapult-equipped army out there. We're not far from Construction, ourselves, which is good. Our cities are slowly limping towards being useful, which is also good; however, there is pretty abysmal happiness management (there is no reason that London should have two unhappy citizens and still be growing!). The only time I grow a city beyond the happiness limit is when I'm planning to do a massive whip. Or if luxuries will be hooked up very, very soon. We do have Silver now, though, which is good.

I think that we need to break our Theology monopoly to get both Horseback Riding and Monarchy. We're simply not in a position to build the Apostolic Palace, and those two technologies are much more useful to us right now. Hopefully we could get both technologies in one trade (I'd trade to Egypt simply because they did not found Hinduism). If we time it right, hopefully we can afford a turn of anarchy to adopt Christianity as the State Religion, and do a double civic switch to Hereditary Rule and Theocracy. This should ease our happiness limits a bit and reduce our need to build Barracks immediately (but a Barracks + Theo = two promotions, which is very good).

Workers need to be withdrawn from France, if any are still there, and get Iberia going as quickly as possible. Food resources should be connected first, then strategic resources, then happiness resources. Fishing boats should be built as early as possible to get seafood resources connected.

Now, on a more tactical level:

The Axeman north of Antium should withdraw to Nottingham--he'll do more good there. The Archer and Swordsman should retreat to Ravus-York. Head due west. Moving south-west makes them vulnerable to an attack out of Antium. I forgot that we are protective. In this case, it will actually be helpful. Two-promo Archers can get City Garrison III (+75% city defense). On top of the +50% city defense (before any cultural or fortification bonuses are applied), that's a strength of 6.75. Not quite enough to stop a Praetorian, but decent. Axemen as back-up will help (not swordsmen). And being Protective with access to Stone, we can build/whip out Walls pretty darn quickly. They should only be erected at the last moment, though.

London: Get a Barracks immediately. Interrupt the Swordsman in training. If we can't beat Rome with numbers, we need a better-trained, more experienced army! Assuming that the Fish have been pillaged, the city will be slowly starving. Not ideal, but a quick adoption of Christianity and HR (if there are troops in the city) should prevent that. We do need at least one unit to guard the city, otherwise we get a "We demand protection!" anger problem.

Nottingham: Whip the Granary so it can start on the troops that much more quickly. I wouldn't expend a ton of effort to protect this city right now, honestly. If it draws Roman attacks, it gives Ravus-York that much more time to prepare...

Ravus-York: Very good to see the improvements here! Unfortunately, basically no production, so we'll have to whip everything and control the growth better. Don't like the Chariot, but let it finish, I guess. Slot in a Barracks next, and whip it ASAP. Should cost 2-pop, and help get the population growth under control (yes, I'm a cold, cruel bastard). Don't work the Wheat and Pigs if the pop is at the happy limit. They suck, but Citizen Specialists will at least add hammers.... If Roman forces approach, whip out Walls (wait for a turn of production to be put in, though, to avoid whip penalties), but not earlier, since Walls don't help us otherwise.

Kent: Should whip Granary ASAP, probably build an Archer next. Workers need to Farm the Wheat immediately to foster faster growth.

Birmingham: Really needs a Work Boat, but I approve the Barracks in spirit. With more food, it can work more high-hammer tiles, and crank out some troops for us, which is double-plus-good.

Cull-Norwhich: Likewise, Work Boat to net the Fish. More food = more hammers = more desperately needed soldiers. Work Boats immediately!

After food is developed in Iberia, our next priority is a road system connecting the cities together. It appears mostly in place, actually, but we need a road 1 tile northeast of Birmingham. After that, mine hills so we can get more Hammers going.

Financially, we need Code of Laws, though we should probably finish Metal Casting after Construction. Speaking of, once Construction is in, we should build a couple of Catapults in London and possibly whip one or two in Ravus-York. With the Barrage promotions, they can really weaken enemy stacks. Ah, and if we get Horseback Riding, a few Horse Archers promoted Flanking II can soften up enemy siege units if they survive their battles. We should let Rome come to us right now.