Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[arya126]

WAIT WAIT WAIT!

I can understand how i would be a suspect, but at this point isnt EVERYBODY a suspect? Innocent until proven guilty, and guilty until proven innocent. Any investigations/thoughts should follow this rule. Dont rule anyone out until the true suspect if found, in which case you rule everybody else out. Ilduce you are not excepted from this just because you are VP. Even Whosit is a suspect at this point.

ON THE POINT OF OPPOSITION LEADER-

Why is Ravus listed as the opposition leader on the front page? MN and myself already agreed via PM that if we were both part of the opposition, then I would become the opposition leader. Just because Ravus declaree his desire for the post at the last minute doesnt cancel out that agreement in my mind. I will forward the messgaes to whoever wants them/post them here if requested. Some parts of the PM might be edited out if i post them on here though, since i forget what information exactly i included in them. I still wish for this post, as i think Ravus (as a monk) is unfit (sorry Ravus but thats my train of thought) to be opposition leader since he is a monk and too peaceful. In my opinion, just because the opposition outnumber the adminstartion for the first time in english history doesnt mean a peaceful opposition leader should be elected.

You might point to Ravus's administration as proof that cooperation bewteen a president and a peaceful opposition leader works. But we are not in that situation. We are at war, and i consider this adminstartion to be suspect at best, and i wish to be able to keep it on its toes. I think we need an opposition leader that will push, and keep pushing. One that will keep the administration not on its toes, but suspended in midair waiting to react.

Some people have even suggested EP and ML. Well i have one question to ask of you: If it was innopropiate to give me during my presidency either of those powers like i had suggested to institute a draft to help fight the romans and stop the opposition from interfering, then why is it needed only a dfew turns afterwards? I understand that we have lost an important city, but we still have a somehwat decent army, much the same that we had when i asked for them. AND we have hurt their army. We dont know exact numbers, but predictions by military theorists have estimated very high percentages of their army out of action. As much as 90% in radical numbers, only as low as 50%. and the average, and most accepted, percentage is about 80% of their army either destroyed or severly damaged.

Due to the low activity of JMUG (he gets on, but not enough to really keep up with everything and handle a party full time) i have decided to assume PRIMARY leadership of my party so as to make decisions at a split seconds notice without fear of JMUG not liking it. I will make decisions, then if JMUG disaproves he will PM ME about it and i will most likely change it, or explain my reasons for it then still most likley chage it if he still disagrees. He is still a co-founder, but i have just assumed primary leadership so as to resolve the duel leadership crisis that Ravus has pointed out.

As an official statement, FaS officially wishes to refrain from any signing of the charter for emergency powers, and even wishes other parties to boycott it and refrain from signing. I do not think EP is nessacery at this time. Maybe in the future if the home isles or Iberia are directly threatened. We DO ask for a military draft in cities threatened by the romans at this time, where military forces stationed in the area will train militia (archers/axemen with no promotions) who volunteer from the populace and will disband at the end of the crisi and rejoin the population.

WIM- The convert the CIVs to our religion.

Mech-I support this notion, although maybe it should be a galley loaded with a scout once the war is over. Iceland, the arctic, baltic, and scandinavia should all be fully explored as well by our existing naval forces after the war.

I play vanilla warlords.

 

[Aysee]

Yeah, but if you get in the way too much, won't that just give them even more reason to declare EP? I can already imagine the statement:

Recent actions by the opposition have proven that they care not a bit about whether or not England emerges the better from this conflict. In our time of crisis, it is vital that we put forward a united front. The opposition has undertaken in actions from the public to the covert, all in the effort to undermine our general war effort. It is with such evidence that we give unto the President Emergency Powers so as to win the war more efficiently.

HYPOTHETICAL-DID NOT HAPPEN YET

You see Arya? You're trapped in a Catch-22: Cooperate and you won't achieve your ends, Resist and you give them adequate cause to declare EP, then they'll crack down on you hard and you won't acheive them anyways.

 

[arya126]

Yes but if they do that with the opposition united under one firm banner (banner, leader) then teh adminsatrtion wouldnt do that. Tey CANT dot hat without us. LH said in apostsomewhere that you need to have2 more parties supporting EP then the parties that dont want it. So Aegis has 3 parties. Just the Fas and LMP could deny them EP. If say, the monks want to support it, then either party in GPC can cancel them out. Im sure GPC of all people understand why not to put too much power in one individual except during times of great stress, and this situation doesnt qualify yet. We arent in a situation much worse then when the war started, so if people had the general concensus not to give me EP, then we shouldnt give EP to whsoit either. Just look at satr wars (where im sure LH got it from). Chancellor Palpatine (equivalent of president) was given EP because of the begining of the clone wars. He never gave them up because he was corrupt. If he hadnt had EP then the empire would never of happened.

 

[Cull]

And of course the GPC will side with you, Arya. Why wouldn't they?

 

[Whosit]

So now I'm being compared to Palpatine. Lovely. I'm asking for emergency power, anyway. However, I would like to point out that it's not in your best interest to harm England, arya. If you do so, you're not likely to win political support, and even if you do, you'll inherit a weaker country.

 

[Aysee]

@cull:
HYPOTHETICAL ARGUMENT: Because EP would postpone elections, thus in theory allowing Aegis to extend the war indefinitely. The GPC is a pacifist coalition and would likely not support such a measure if they saw that an extension of the war might happen.

EDIT: x-post with Whosit. Well, he certainly doesn't warrant comparison to Palpatine (not yet, anyways) But I'll stay neutral on this for now.

 

[Cull]

Unlike Arya, who basically acted as a dictator during his term, compared to Whosit, who has already created a system where the ministers act as autonomous entries, and can, and will balance him, Whosit will give up his EP.

 

[Aysee]

Well, I'm biased, but I don't think Arya warrants being called a dictator. Sure, he shot down all attempts to limit the President's powers, but he did confer with his advisors before making decisions and he did respect their opinions. Hey, if he was a dictator he would have demanded EP, so...

 

[Cull]

One, Whosit did not demand EP, unlike what you may suggest. It was something that Ravus proposed, and that I brought to light in an offical treaty on the last page. He did not even remotely try to listen to the opposition(with MN, I don't blame him, but still), and gave his advisers little power. While we might call ourselves a democracy, until Whosit's administration, where ministers were given autonomous positions, we were an elected dicatorship, no?

 

[arya126]

I suggested EP, but as everybody else agreed that it wasnt needed, i let it go. A real dictator would have pursued it. As Aysee says, i DID confer with my advisors. The reason people think i was a 'dictator' is that i didnt want the power of the president limited, which is the same thing that LIGHTHEARTER supported. It just isnt how Realpolitik is meant to be played. I also didnt listen to the opposition, but i dont see how that would make me a dictator. I just listend to my adminstartion rather than people who DIDNT vote for me. The opposition didnt support me in the election, so unless our goals intersected (which they did occasionally such as founding a religion) im not likely to do what they want, or even listen to them sometimes.

So in conclusion, i dont think i was a dictator. A firmer ruler than others, but with the issues i faced it think it was needed.

Whosit-Yes you are being comapred to palpatine as there is no RL expample of an 'EP' usage. Sorry. And do you think i give a **** about poltical support? I will do whats best for england at the moment. I might run again in the diatant future, but at the moment people seem to think a second term is a 'power grab' (its not against the rules, just against the precedents of previous presidents who didnt want to deal with politics for a bit) which is quite ridiculous, and i think i can better serve the country on the sidelines like Ravus has chosen, only more active. In the future, such as when we start getting industrial, i will run again. Maybe.

I dont think the GPC will side with me because im me. I think they will side with me because what i am supporting is in support of their principles. Even whsoit's supposed 'principles' are violated by this motion to allow EP, because by allowing minsters from other parties and giving them 'power' (technically it is still what i gave them, only in specific areas, as LH isnt allowing real power to be delegated to them,the president only has to force himself to listen to them) it is the opposite of taking control himself and using EP. Why do we even need it in the first place? Like i said, the situation isnt that different from what i faced as president.

 

[Cull]

Actually there is real power. We decide, we tell Whosit, then he tells Lighthearter. Real power, non? And if an elected dictatorship is how PREVIOUS realpoliticks that have little impact on this one was how they were run, then we're going to be different.

Best for England at the moment is to sabotage, tell a president who has proved himself well-versed in both politics as well as on the battlefield, threaten to cause chaos if you don't get your way, and the like?

The situtation is a lot different. You are Arya. He is Whosit. Get it yet?

 

[arya126]

One, Whosit did not demand EP, unlike what you may suggest. It was something that Ravus proposed, and that I brought to light in an offical treaty on the last page. He did not even remotely try to listen to the opposition(with MN, I don't blame him, but still), and gave his advisers little power. While we might call ourselves a democracy, until Whosit's administration, where ministers were given autonomous positions, we were an elected dicatorship, no?

We never said Whosit demanded EP. Read it again. If this was a TRUE democracy then there would be no government and EVERY SINGLE ISSUE would have to be voted upon by everyone in the thread, and if that ever happens i will leave. It is inefficient in RL and just not much fun in a game. A Democratic Republic, which is what the usa has, wouldnt work here either as it requires too many people to recreate the system effectively and balance the powers correctly.

Realpolitik is meant to be played like this, where elections are held, a president is elected, and he appoints minsters. Those ministers are meant to give him advice, and info on their subject. As far as i know, in this realpolitik the advisors have never satyed in their 'area of expertise' and rather, had given their opionson every issue. The president then listens to the advice of his advisors, and makes a plan of decisions designed to guide LH through the turnset.

This is what i did in my term, although i cant speak for the other presidents. I let the debates rage, putting my piece in, and eventually came up with a plan based on the threads comments and sent it by PM to my advisors. I included any additions they made.

Doesnt sound much like an elected dictaorship to me. A president could make it one, but if we are stupid enough to elect someone that will do that then i think we deserve it.

 

[arya126]

Okay heres the deal. If EP OR ML(Ravus its Martial law, not military law by the way) is declared i will sabotage like crazy even if almost none of them suceed. Its not like you can throw me in jail. Im an immortal politician. Technically, you cant do anything to effect me. Its an opposition option that is given to me perfectly legally.

That is my stance.

LH- When do we find out if the sabotage suceeds or not?

 

[Cull]

We were stupid to elect me and to elect you. And it appeared like you did say that Whosit demande EP with this Aysee post:

Hey, if he was a dictator he would have demanded EP, so...

I understand previous realpoitiks that were played on the Paradox forums were like this, however why can't it be different? Just because it was like it before. We argue until the cows come home, but our system works too.

It is an elected dicatorship. People elect a guy, he can chose to listen to the people, decides everything, and if he's good, get reelected.

 

[Cull]

Okay heres the deal. If EP OR ML(Ravus its Martial law, not military law by the way) is declared i will sabotage like crazy even if almost none of them suceed. Its not like you can throw me in jail. Im an immortal politician. Technically, you cant do anything to effect me. Its an opposition option that is given to me perfectly legally.

That is my stance.

LH- When do we find out if the sabotage suceeds or not?

Again, showing off that you will threaten until you get what you want. Also, in a previous PM by LH to me when I asked about a technical question over sabotage, he responded that each new sabotage made by the same person would increase their chance of failing until it was almost 0.

 

[Whosit]

Whosit-Yes you are being comapred to palpatine as there is no RL expample of an 'EP' usage. Sorry.

Wow. No real life example of emergency powers? Really? The obvious example that comes to mind is Hitler. Not long after he was elected Chancellor, he called for Emergency Power and then never gave it up.

More recently, during the judicial crisis in Pakistan (I believe), Musharraf called on emergency power, although I have to admit that I'm not sure if he is still using them or not, and I certainly couldn't say if he will or will not give them up.

I am sure I can find more examples with a bit of research; those are just the most obvious ones.

 

[arya126]

Okay lets put it this way whosit: I did not know of any Real life examples. The hitler one is obvious, but i had never heard of the pakistani case.

Cull-Maybe because LH doesnt want it to change since he created it? Also, realpolitiks arent meant to be modified much. You would be changing the entire way the game is played by doing that. I think that LH, and this is my desire as well, desires for realpolitik to be played on the saem base as it is over there, with simple rule adjustements for new situations.

You should really drop it since the man already ruled that it wouldnt be changed way back when MN started the 'revolution'. I was unaware of the sabotage thing, but my threat still stands. Its not my fault if all of england is destroyed and the economy is turned to shambles since i will merely be standing by my word.

That post you quoetd implies nothing. Aysee was talking about how i DIDNT demand EP. Neither of us EVER said or implied that Whosit demanded EP, although he is now asking for it even though he can be quoted saying he didnt want it before. I dont think persuasion was used on him.

 

[Cull]

Wait for Lighthearter then to decide. Seeing as Whosit would still be the one sending the final plan to LH, even though we, the ministers actually create them, the process works the same. Standing by your word? Harming England though. Just to get your way. Interesting.

 

[mechaerik]

@Whosit:
Also, I don't think anyone wants to compare you to hitler.

EDIT: 4000th post. Almost halfway there.

 

[Lighthearter]

arya - In about an hour. Along with the epilogue to Ravus-York.

Realpolitik/EP/whatever the hell it is - What. The. Hell. Are. You. Guys. Arguing. About? You've lost me completely.

- Lighthearter