Recession Watch: September (it goes on, and on, and on...)

Are we still in recession or are we in recovery?


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So. Is the worst over?
I would say we avoided complete disaster so yes the worst is over. The worst was when LIBOR was 450 basis points over the treasury (TED spread) and now we're at 18 basis points over.

That said worst is a relative term. Are you looking for a job? If you're young, not educated nor experienced then not so much but if you're older, educated and experienced you're in a better situation. Are you trying to borrow money as a business or a mortgage? Likely much better than a year ago but not nearly as easy as it was two years ago.

I would also contend that decoupling is a myth. When you consider the globalization process from 1984 to now (approximate start of globalization) then you see divergence in growth rates. However saying that China has decoupled from the US because China grows at 5% while the US experience an output decline of 2% is wrong. If the trend growth rate is 9% in China and 2% in the US, both countries are 4 percentage points below trend and their business cycles are therefore perfectly in tune. This is hypothetical, but it makes the point.
 
There's also the strong possibility being worried over now that there'll be a secondary series of loan defaults from commercial real estate that the banks are on shaky ground to withstand.
 
All things considered I'd rather be looking for a mortgage now than 2 years ago, considering what happened to house prices between then and now...
 
From bbc...

Question: what's the difference between a recession and a depression? Answer: in a depression, policy doesn't work.

Just six months ago it seemed quite possible that we were going to find that out the hard way. We still might. But by common agreement, the risk of a global slump on a par with the 1930s has fallen substantially since the start of the year.

The extraordinary policy steps taken by governments and central banks since the Great Panic of September 2008 - the bank bail-outs, the record interest rate cuts, the trillions of dollars in budget stimulus - all of that seems to have worked. At least for now.

But today governments have to work out when - and how - to clean up the mess that those emergency measures have left behind. That could be even more challenging than the crisis itself.


A quick recap of the good news. There was growth between April and June. Maybe not in the UK or the US, the countries at the centre of the financial maelstrom, but France, Germany and Japan all supposedly grew in the second quarter of 2009.


At the same time, the emerging economies - China, especially - have bounced back to rapid levels of growth, far quicker than anyone expected at the start of the year.

The OECD's latest estimate is for the G7 economies (USA, UK, France, Germany, Canada, Italy and Japan) to shrink by 3.7% in 2009. Back in June it thought the decline would be 4.1%.

Make no mistake: that would still make 2009 a pretty diabolical year. As the G20 finance ministers observed last weekend in London, the poorest countries will get the worst of it, and they are reliant on that quarrelsome bunch of politicians for their "automatic stabilisers", in the form of a better resourced World Bank and IMF.

At their meeting, the ministers confirmed that the pledge drive was nearly over: almost all of the extra $850bn £518bn) for the international financial institutions that was agreed by the G20 heads in April has now been pledged by individual countries.

It will be a while before the Fund and the World Bank actually get the money and even longer before it gets to individual countries.

But, now we are all in Lehmans anniversary mode, considering the events of the past year, things could surely be looking much worse. The US economy may well have started to grow in the last few months and even the UK will surely not be too far behind.


So what is now keeping those finance ministers awake at night? The answer is quite a lot. How and when to start unwinding all of that policy stimulus is the one we hear about most often, but there are two other big ones, much discussed in the corridors at that recent G20 meeting.

The first is still the state of the banks. Even though some big international banks are returning to profit earlier than expected, IMF figures on total unrealised losses on bank balance sheets as a result of the crisis suggest that there is room for plenty more bad news.

There are particular fears about Continental Europe (notably France and Germany). Officials fear that French and German banks have been allowed to remain in denial about a large chunk of their bad assets. Ministers there live in dread of new requests for expensive help.

Even where governments have engaged in extensive stress-testing to ensure that banks have enough capital to survive (as in the US and the UK), the big worry is that they still have too much debt - and too little capital - to want to lend.

The second big worry is that not enough is being done to lay the foundations for more balanced global growth. Personal saving in the US is now about 5% of gross domestic product (GDP) - up from roughly zero last year.

To get its house in order, the US needs saving to remain at least that high, so the US can stop building up mountains of foreign debt.

That is only consistent with rapid global growth if other countries step up to the plate, and promote domestic demand in their own countries as an alternative to exporting to the US. In Germany, one of the big surplus countries, ministers have expressly rejected this course.

In China, by contrast, officials insist they are planning to focus more on domestically generated demand, but right now it is difficult to predict how and when that commitment will bear fruit.

If there is no rebalancing of growth in favour of domestic demand in "saver" economies such as China and Germany, there will almost certainly not be enough growth. It is as simple as that. Unemployment will remain high across the developed economies, and public debt ratios will continue to rise, even several years into economic recovery.

The problem is easy to grasp. The solution is anything but.
 
Anyone got a graph that shows % fall from peak GDP for various countries? (quarterly or monthly) I.e. an index with peak GDP for each country at 100%.
I can't vouch for its accuracy, as I threw this together in a few minutes, but here's one such graph using quarterly data for the US, Germany, France, and the UK.

Sources:
United States, Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA)
France, Eurostat (using nominal GDP with country-specific price deflators)
Germany, Eurostat (ditto)
UK, Office of National Statistics, National Statistics Online (NSO)

graph:
lossoutput.png

The only one I'm sure is correct is the US figure. I haven't verified the rest.

(Excel 2007 sucks. The labeling's ugly, but it's supposed to go from 2007Q3 to 2009Q2.)

(Instead of presenting the numbers as percent loss from 100%, I recast them so that the peak is depicted as 0%, so negative numbers are % below peak. Hopefully that's acceptable.)

:)
 
So. Is the worst over?

Some debt was shifted from private holders to states, most remains as it was. Virtually none has yet been wiped out.
It's not over until the excess debt no longer exists...
 
But by common agreement, the risk of a global slump on a par with the 1930s has fallen substantially since the start of the year.

How about by facts or the numbers?
Oops, nope, looks worse now than it ever did.
The world is in for such a nasty surprise.

Common agreement! :mad::mad:

Re: Schiff

It is one thing to explain/predict downfall of the American economy, it is quite another to try and react to it. Schiff does not short stocks, he only advises long investments, and in the economy of 2008, that is a tough call.

Schiff had been saying since 2002 that there was an impending real estate bubble. It took 6 years to happen. For 5 years, he looked a real fool, but he kept saying the same thing. Was it broke clock being right twice a day? Nope. We are now where he knew we would eventually be. He is now saying we are going to crash like never before, and we will. Soon.

Funnily, I am watching Schiff's new video right now, and he is saying the exact same thing, stopped clock and all. Great minds think alike.
 
I can't vouch for its accuracy, as I threw this together in a few minutes, but here's one such graph using quarterly data for the US, Germany, France, and the UK.

Sources:
United States, Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA)
France, Eurostat (using nominal GDP with country-specific price deflators)
Germany, Eurostat (ditto)
UK, Office of National Statistics, National Statistics Online (NSO)

graph:
lossoutput.png

The only one I'm sure is correct is the US figure. I haven't verified the rest.

(Excel 2007 sucks. The labeling's ugly, but it's supposed to go from 2007Q3 to 2009Q2.)

(Instead of presenting the numbers as percent loss from 100%, I recast them so that the peak is depicted as 0%, so negative numbers are % below peak. Hopefully that's acceptable.)

:)
Awesome! Exactly what I wanted! Thank you :love: If I'd known you were gonna put the figures together by hand I'd have done it myself :blush: but since you've done all the hard work anyway, would you mind posting the numbers please?
 
Awesome! Exactly what I wanted! Thank you :love: If I'd known you were gonna put the figures together by hand I'd have done it myself :blush: but since you've done all the hard work anyway, would you mind posting the numbers please?
No worries; I had been looking for an excuse to explore Eurostat's online database.

Here are the % deviations from peak in tab-delimited format (so you should be able to highlight them, copy, and paste directly into Excel or your statistical package of choice)

Seeing as the peak quarter for the selected countries was 2008Q1 or 2008Q2, I dropped the 2007 observations.

Spoiler tab-delimited raw data :
Quarter France (Eurostat) United States (BEA) United Kingdom (NSO) Germany (Eurostat)
2008 0.0% -0.4% 0.0% 0.0%
2008.25 -0.5% 0.0% -0.1% -0.6%
2008.5 -0.7% -0.7% -0.8% -0.9%
2008.75 -2.1% -2.0% -2.6% -3.3%
2009 -3.4% -3.7% -4.9% -6.7%
2009.25 -3.1% -3.9% -5.7% -6.4%


Quarters are defined as follows:
20XX.00 = Q1
20XX.25 = Q2
20XX.50 = Q3
20XX.75 = Q4

If you want the really raw data:
US, BEA NIPA 1.6. Find the max value from 2007Q3 to 2009Q2, and divide all values through by the maximum. This gets everything in terms of the peak value

France and Germany, Eurostat. Pull out the quarterly data on nominal GDP and GDP deflators. Divide NGDP by the deflator and multiply by 100 to get RGDP. Then find the max value for each country and divide through by it.

Britain: A bit harder to get, as the NSO's interface is unpleasant. Go here, take the "GDP time series data" link, and mess around with the drop-down menus. I chose A2 -> ABMI (GDP, chained index, seasonally adjusted) and picked custom time periods for 2007Q3 to 2009Q1.
 
I suspect that people's faith in statistics is misplaced. An example:

Consumer credit fell by a record $21.6 billion, or 10 percent at an annual rate, to $2.5 trillion, according to a Federal Reserve report released today in Washington. Credit dropped by $15.5 billion in June, more than previously estimated. Credit fell for a sixth month, the longest series of declines since 1991.
[...]
Revolving debt, such as credit cards, fell by $6.1 billion in July, the Fed report showed. Non-revolving debt, including loans for automobiles and mobile homes, plunged by $15.4 billion. The Fed’s report doesn’t cover borrowing secured by real estate.

Consumer spending rose 0.2 percent in July, following a 0.6 percent increase in June, government data showed on Aug. 28. Excluding cars, purchases were little changed.

Incomes were unchanged in July after dropping 1.1 percent in the prior month. The decrease in income in June reflected the fading boost from government stimulus-related tax cuts and transfers. Wages and salaries posted the first gain of the year in July, increasing 0.1 percent after dropping 0.3 percent.

Something does not compute. June: falling income, falling credit, and a rise in consumption?
July: further fall in credit, income virtually stagnant, and consumption keeps rising?

Where did the money came from?
 
Where did the money came from?

It came from the fed, of course. And the people raising the consumption, and paying off their credit, are those who were first in line for the bailout money. They think it's all over. They are out their spending their bonuses, and paying off their margin debts with the billions they were handed. They are the ones skewing the average. Pump 23 Trillion in new money into the economy, and its going to play tricks with the numbers.

I just sit here, as the fire in my gut boils and boils and boils, I just can not wait for the day the new French revolution begins. The look on their faces will be priceless. It will start with Bernankesque shaky voiced nervous testimony as they explain they need more help, or why they are suing to keep the GAO from auditing the Federal reserve. They can't hide forever, we are going to get them.

And, maybe, skinning them alive would be the easiest way to dispose of them. ;)
 
I suspect that people's faith in statistics is misplaced. An example:



Something does not compute. June: falling income, falling credit, and a rise in consumption?
July: further fall in credit, income virtually stagnant, and consumption keeps rising?

Where did the money came from?
It's coming from government transfers. For instance, 40% of families that have earned income are using food stamps (versus 25% 2 years ago) which is going towards consumption. The stimulus added another $80 to a family’s monthly allowance, which now stands at an average $290. Probably a good use of funds.

On the other hand, and I haven't looked into the recent numbers, in April stimulus from the federal government to the personal sector, in the form of tax reduction and increased benefits, came to $121 billion at an annual rate and consumer spending rose the grand total of $1 billion. In May it came to $163 billion at an annual rate, and consumer spending increased by a measly $25 billion (at an annual rate). The last few months were thrown completely out of whack by a ridiculous transfer through the "cash for clunkers" program. Idiotic.

The bottom line is the government does not create income or wealth, it merely redistributes them so this is temporary. Some of it seems like such a complete waste when you consider we're running 13% deficits as % of GDP. Especially when we're planning another massive entitlement program. I don't get it.

One other thing to keep in mind, it's estimated that the top 10% of Americans in terms of disposable income account for 42% of consumption. The 40-90 income percentile ("the middle class") accounts for 46%, leaving just 12% for the 0-40 percentile. The middle class is consolidating and their wealth loss is even more stark because they're so much more concentrated in real estate than the top or bottom.

Debt as a percentage of disposable income was 205% in 2007 for the middle class whereas lower-income families’ debt-to-disposable-income ratio was 133%. And for the wealthy the percentage was 116%. So balance sheet repair will continue for the middle class.

That will sap spending for years to come and once we raise taxes I'd say it will get worse on the top end for consumption.
 
It came from the fed, of course. And the people raising the consumption, and paying off their credit, are those who were first in line for the bailout money. They think it's all over. They are out their spending their bonuses, and paying off their margin debts with the billions they were handed. They are the ones skewing the average. Pump 23 Trillion in new money into the economy, and its going to play tricks with the numbers.

I just sit here, as the fire in my gut boils and boils and boils, I just can not wait for the day the new French revolution begins. The look on their faces will be priceless. It will start with Bernankesque shaky voiced nervous testimony as they explain they need more help, or why they are suing to keep the GAO from auditing the Federal reserve. They can't hide forever, we are going to get them.

And, maybe, skinning them alive would be the easiest way to dispose of them. ;)

do you have any clue how big that is??? that's like 1/3 of the world GDP
 
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Fed-f...tml?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Economic activity is stabilizing or improving in the vast majority of the country, according to a government survey released Wednesday. The findings indicate that the worst recession since the 1930s may be over.

The Federal Reserve's snapshot of economic conditions backs predictions by Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke and most other analysts that the economy has started to grow once again in the current quarter.

In the new survey, all but one of the Fed's 12 regions indicated that economic activity was "stable," showed "signs of stabilization" or had "firmed." The one exception was the St. Louis region, which continued to report that the pace of decline in economic activity appeared to be "moderating."

Looking ahead, businesses in most Fed regions said they were "cautiously positive" about the economic outlook.

The assessments of businesses on the front lines of the economy was brighter than those they provided for the previous Fed report in late July. At that time, most regions said the recession was easing its grip and some of them reported signs that activity was leveling off.

In Wednesday's survey, the Dallas region indicated that economic activity had "firmed." The Fed regions of Boston, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Richmond and San Francisco mentioned "signs of improvement." The Atlanta, Chicago, Kansas City, Minneapolis and New York regions described activity as "stable or showing signs of stabilization."

Analysts predict the economy is growing in the current July-September quarter at anywhere between 3 and 4 percent.

Most of that growth should come from more spending from businesses, which had slashed investments -- often by double-digits -- during the recession.

Consumer spending, however, is expected to turn up only because of the binge-buying of automobiles generated by the short-lived Cash-for-Clunkers program. Buyers were given cash rebates to trade in less efficient gas guzzlers.

The Fed's survey found that the majority of regions did report that the government's clunkers program "boosted traffic and sales." But aside from brisk businesses at auto dealerships, other merchants struggled. Consumer spending remained "soft" in most Fed regions.

Manufacturing, meanwhile, reported "modest" improvements. Residential real-estate markets, which were clobbered during the downturn, also flashed signs of improvements. But the commercial real-estate market continued to be a drag in most markets.

Yeah, recession over...

This kind of reporting is more nauseating than the Pre Iraq War credulous hack coverage.
 
I think the problem with all this is it may be a "statistical" recovery but won't feel like it in the real world.
 
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