Referendum on Scottish Independence

[Cheezy the Wiz]

My plan assumes that London is sucked into a vortex at some point in the next twelve to eighteenth months.

Spoiler :

 

[Kyriakos]

Is there any decent map of Caledonia (workers empire)?

 

[Kyriakos]

The Scots are just living in their fantasy world, as usual. Next they will claim that England is some sort of royal saudi-land :/

 

[Winston Hughes]

If Labour was willing or capable of appealing to non-voters, who are overwhelmingly in their socioeconomic catchment, they could make good the losses easily enough. But they'd prefer to chase a right-wing middle class, and as long as the current electoral system prevails, there's no real way of punishing them for that.

One major reason for this is that, when it comes to social issues and immigration, those middle class voters are significantly less 'right-wing' than the average non-voter. It's not for no reason that the only party to make significant inroads with this catchment in recent decades has been the BNP. As illustrated by the disastrous failure of the British left's attempted 'rainbow coalition', the shortest route to political oblivion is to underestimate the conservatism of the British working class.

 

[Traitorfish]

The British working class being entirely comprised of native-born whites, of course. Because immigrants and people of colour don't have social class, they have "communities". Strange how that works.

 

[Ghpstage]

The more democratic voting system that the Scots have would alone be enough to make me vote for independance if I lived there, especially as the UK as a whole decided to stay with the failed FPTP voting system in favour of the slightly better AV system, more or less shutting the door to any electoral reform for at least the next few decades.....
The hypocrisy of a lot of the UKs right, many of whom want to leave the EU to get away from Brussels, yet want to have Scotland stay in a similar arrangmeent with Westminister annoys me greatly too.

 

[Traitorfish]

The hypocrisy of a lot of the UKs right, many of whom want to leave the EU to get away from Brussels, yet want to have Scotland stay in a similar arrangmeent with Westminister annoys me greatly too.

I'm not sure that it's necessarily hypocritical, to be honest. Most British right-wingers identify political sovereignty as lying with the Crown, and more generally in a political tradition inherited from the past, rather than in "the people", as liberals and socialist would. (They'll adopt such language, but that reflects the nature of political discourse, rather than necessarily being an accurate representation of their principles.) The Union is three centuries old, and its component crowns older still, marking it out as an historically-privileged authority, while the EU is new and untested, bringing its authority into question, above all its authority over so ancient an institution as the British throne.

You can certainly identify hypocrisy on the part of a lot of individuals, in the way they invoke regionalist positions in one case and centralising position in the other, because the bulk of the British right are a craven host of thieves and liars, as is common knowledge, but I think it's possible to hold an anti-European, pro-Union position that is consistent within its own terms.

 

[Tahuti]

First rule of politics in general is that there is no such thing as hypocrisy. What is errorenously called "hypocrisy" actually means you have gotten your way.

 

[Winston Hughes]

The British working class being entirely comprised of native-born whites, of course.

It's by no means entirely comprised of people with conservative social views either, but neither point diminishes the argument that Labour can't win without those people's votes, except by courting sections of the middle class.

It's also a mistake to assume that the non-white and non-native-born parts of the working class are immune to conservative social views or even anti-immigration sentiments.

Spoiler :

If you find the latter hard to believe (as I did, when first it was suggested to me), check out these studies, showing half of foreign-born respondents saying that immigration should be reduced. Or these ones, showing that a quarter of 1st or 2nd generation migrants believe immigration is bad for the economy and is undermining 'British cultural life'.

 

[Tahuti]

It's also a mistake to assume that the non-white and non-native-born parts of the working class are immune to conservative social views or even anti-immigration sentiments.

Well, immigrants of Muslim backgrounds tend to be very socially conservative. I wager that anti-immigrant sentiments among ethnic minorities are usually found within ethnic minorities that long had their wave of settlement and have had citizenship for several generations. It is not unheard of to find ethnic Turks who oppose Eastern European immigration to the Netherlands, for instance.

 

[Alassius]

Well, immigrants of Muslim backgrounds tend to be very socially conservative. I wager that anti-immigrant sentiments among ethnic minorities are usually found within ethnic minorities that long had their wave of settlement and have had citizenship for several generations. It is not unheard of to find ethnic Turks who oppose Eastern European immigration to the Netherlands, for instance.

And the Chinese in China somehow constantly worry about the Islamification of western Europe...

 

[Tahuti]

Uh.. no.

 

[really]

Most of the important things - economic policies are still done at national level, especially since Britain keeps the pound. And then there is the size of your bargaining power.

Would the important things being done at national level not be an argument for independence? (making the decision in Edinburgh rather than London)
Bargaining power is a point but if it isn't being used in your own best interest it could be working against you.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I wager that anti-immigrant sentiments among ethnic minorities are usually found within ethnic minorities that long had their wave of settlement and have had citizenship for several generations.

I imagine the effect probably would be more pronounced in those groups, but the links in my spoiler show that nearly 50% of immigrants into Britain think there is too much immigration into Britain. This doesn't mean they are right about that (though my reasons for thinking them mistaken are even further off-topic here), but it does suggest that the 'criticism of immigration levels = racism and xenophobia' line held by certain political elements is misleading at best.

 

[luiz]

I imagine the effect probably would be more pronounced in those groups, but the links in my spoiler show that nearly 50% of immigrants into Britain think there is too much immigration into Britain. This doesn't mean they are right about that (though my reasons for thinking them mistaken are even further off-topic here), but it does suggest that the 'criticism of immigration levels = racism and xenophobia' line held by certain political elements is misleading at best.

Indeed. I'm living in Texas and I was surprised at how many hispanics here think Mexican immigration is excessive.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Breaking up after peacefully coexisting for 300 years for no clearly discernible reason ... uh, I really do support peoples' right to self-determination*, but this seems just silly from outside. So, no.

Do not be so jealous, Estonia. There's enough independence for everyone.

 

[Tahuti]

I imagine the effect probably would be more pronounced in those groups, but the links in my spoiler show that nearly 50% of immigrants into Britain think there is too much immigration into Britain. This doesn't mean they are right about that (though my reasons for thinking them mistaken are even further off-topic here), but it does suggest that the 'criticism of immigration levels = racism and xenophobia' line held by certain political elements is misleading at best.

What's to prevent immigrant communities from holding racist views? Orthodox Jews and Surinamese Hindus in the Netherlands sometimes support Geert Wilders, out of fear of Islamification.

 

[Traitorfish]

It's by no means entirely comprised of people with conservative social views either, but neither point diminishes the argument that Labour can't win without those people's votes, except by courting sections of the middle class.

It's also a mistake to assume that the non-white and non-native-born parts of the working class are immune to conservative social views or even anti-immigration sentiments.

Spoiler :

If you find the latter hard to believe (as I did, when first it was suggested to me), check out these studies, showing half of foreign-born respondents saying that immigration should be reduced. Or these ones, showing that a quarter of 1st or 2nd generation migrants believe immigration is bad for the economy and is undermining 'British cultural life'.

This isn't untrue. But so much of the mainstream discourse around the working class is so heavily constructed in terms of these flattened, inhuman clichés of competing racialised "communities", defined in terms of selfishness, anxiety and hostility to outsiders. Incapable of any overarching solidarities except nationalism, and that only through the mediation of the creaking, half-feudal British state, so what remains is the right on a platform of "national unity" and the "left" on a platform of communal patronage. And that just isn't a productive framework, but I think it's a framework that you're at least close to reproducing here.

If we're going to take the working class seriously, we need to be able to imagine them as social and political agents in their own right. Citizens, workers, whatever language you prefer, it's necessary to imagine them as capable of actual political decision-making, not just as collective repositories of habit and prejudice. This wasn't always a proposition alien to the British left, and indeed it used to be the Labour Party's stated justification for existing, back when they fancied themselves socialists, but it's something they seem to struggle with nowadays.

Not that it really matters, in the end, because Labour isn't going to try to appeal to working class non-voters anyway. I'm not sure that it's actually capable of doing so, a this point, capable of offering the working class anything like empowerment rather than just survival, that it's even really able to understanding what that means. It's going to keep competing for the right-wing middle class vote, and it's going to keep failing, because middle class right-wingers are going to vote for the more plainly middle class, more plainly right-wing party. But that isn't something Scots should feel responsible for, is my central point, and not something we should let stop us playing the good rat and abandoning the sinking ship.


(I'm a little bitter about this whole business, in case you couldn't tell.)

 

[Benefactor]

(I'm a little bitter about this whole business, in case you couldn't tell.)

Scots are always bitter about something .

 

[Alassius]

It's going to keep competing for the right-wing middle class vote, and it's going to keep failing, because middle class right-wingers are going to vote for the more plainly middle class, more plainly right-wing party.

Hmmm, aren't we talking about the working class being more right-wing than the middle class here? On social issues at least.

Would the important things being done at national level not be an argument for independence? (making the decision in Edinburgh rather than London)
Bargaining power is a point but if it isn't being used in your own best interest it could be working against you.

Agreed, I simply meant that the argument of "most law comes from Europe" isn't true. I'm not against DevoMax, which also seems popular among Scots - more control over important things like economics, but leave the messy stuff like diplomacy and military to Westminster.