Referendum on Scottish Independence

[Mise]

FYI, #<expletive>offscotland was trending on twitter for a bit.

 

[Flying Pig]

I'm aware of this, hence me saying that the only problem is that is not limited to England, even though it is the English parliament. Legally, the current House of Commons is exactly the same one as the one before the act of union of 1707, AFAIK.

Yes, but that's not what is meant when people talk about the need for an English parliament.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Well, you were saying "Salmond can destroy most hostile journalists & politicians on economic matters", and now you are agreeing that Salmond wasn't destroying an economic argument?

Those aren't contradictory statements. Of course it was theatre; it was actually a well-staged ambush that Robinson walked into. But N. Robinson's phrasing of the question did suggest he didn't quite grasp some of the economics, though I'm happy to believe too that he was being tendentious / political. A. Salmond's frequently destroys the economic arguments of journalists at press conferences & interviews, the recent N. Robinson episode was more enjoyable in that he is the BBC's senior political correspondent & not the usual right-wing newspaper types.

 

[Tahuti]

Yes, but that's not what is meant when people talk about the need for an English parliament.

My point is that English people who want their Parliament for them alone do better by advocating dissolution of the UK, starting with Scottish independence.

 

[Flying Pig]

Or simply for an additional English parliament, or for non-English MPs to be disallowed from voting on English-only issues, or for a majority of English MPs to be needed to pass any English bill in the Commons.

 

[JohannaK]

Then they'll complain about having too much bureaucracy! Betcha!

 

[bhsup]

I realize the parallel is far from perfect, but in a way England is rather like the District of Columbia as regards representation. Every State in the Union has its own congress, chief executive, and court system independent of the federal government. Washington, D.C. does not because it is not a State (this is the most blatant failing of the parallel) but rather just a federal district. While it does have its own mayor, it is directly controlled by the US Congress with representatives from every State in the union being directly involved in its local affairs.

I know I'd be pissed if some yahoo State legislator from New York tried to vote in the Missouri general assembly.

 

[Antilogic]

FYI, #<expletive>offscotland was trending on twitter for a bit.

It was hilarious. Definitely some good trolling in there.

I realize the parallel is far from perfect, but in a way England is rather like the District of Columbia as regards representation. Every State in the Union has its own congress, chief executive, and court system independent of the federal government. Washington, D.C. does not because it is not a State (this is the most blatant failing of the parallel) but rather just a federal district. While it does have its own mayor, it is directly controlled by the US Congress with representatives from every State in the union being directly involved in its local affairs.

I know I'd be pissed if some yahoo State legislator from New York tried to vote in the Missouri general assembly.

Especially if the devolution plans go into effect for Scotland as well as Wales, etc., it will start to look that way. However, at least England has a large contingent of MPs--Columbia, Puerto Rico, and other US territories don't even have one. Cue me saying they should.

 

[Tahuti]

Or simply for an additional English parliament, or for non-English MPs to be disallowed from voting on English-only issues, or for a majority of English MPs to be needed to pass any English bill in the Commons.

Britain already made its choice when it granted devolution without giving England a parliament. While it would have been theoretically possible for an English parliament to be created after the fact, Britain could no longer maintain the pretense of unity. Either it would reverse devolution (unlikely) or split. Even if today will prove a failure for the Scottish movement, eventually, they will get their way; Britain has set up the political landscape too much in the favour of Scottish independence and unless something non-mundane happens, this won't get back in the bottle.

 

[bhsup]

FYI, #<expletive>offscotland was trending on twitter for a bit.

It was hilarious. Definitely some good trolling in there.

Amusing retort...

From what I can see in the latest comments, it looks like Scots are keeping the trending alive now by responding to it.

 

[AdamCrock]

So how's the big "Scottish Question" ? Is it resolved yet ? Are the votes in ? How long will They count ?

 

[Tahuti]

So how's the big "Scottish Question" ? Is it resolved yet ? Are the votes in ? How long will They count ?

19 september! Hold on, just a little a longer!

 

[ParkCungHee]

For me, it's the current batch of Scottish politicians. If a different batch were able to offer a competent plan, I might support independence. As it stands the Scottish people will most likely suffer because of bad policies, and that's unnecessary.

It seems a little short sighted to me to decide national sovereignty based on the current crop of politicians. If the Scots don't like Salmond, they can vote him out. That's, sort of why they want independence.

If they really want to get the Westminster flavor back, I'm sure they could even get Brown to come back.

 

[Alassius]

It seems a little short sighted to me to decide national sovereignty based on the current crop of politicians. If the Scots don't like Salmond, they can vote him out. That's, sort of why they want independence.

If they really want to get the Westminster flavor back, I'm sure they could even get Brown to come back.

To be more precise, I'm not happy that the independence package is sold under false advertising. Suppose Salmond said "guys, this is going to be really painful, but I think taking control of our own affairs is worth the cost, and that we might have a better life in future", and the Scots still vote for Yes, then I'd be 100% behind them.

 

[calad]

When we will know results?

 

[Borachio]

Here we go again! I think I'll keep a copy on my paste book thingy of this: 6 am friday, local time.

 

[Pangur Bán]

To be more precise, I'm not happy that the independence package is sold under false advertising. Suppose Salmond said "guys, this is going to be really painful, but I think taking control of our own affairs is worth the cost, and that we might have a better life in future", and the Scots still vote for Yes, then I'd be 100% behind them.

FFS, basically you have internalized the strawmen created by No. He has said that, he says it every second interview because he's always asked: something like 'wouldn't it be more credible if you acknowledged ...', then he says something like 'it won't be painless but worth it'. I've seen this about 50 times now. Of course, he can't emphasize it, as it will be misrepresented & only the first part will get reported. Don't let the reality of politics infringe on your freedom. However it is coming, whoever is delivering it, you don't get many chances for this kind of thing. It's like saying no to free gold because the guy giving it has bad breath.

 

[kramerfan86]

So when this fails is there any pathway for a vote to happen again in the future or is this sort of a one shot deal and after that Scotland is in the UK forevermore?

 

[Pangur Bán]

So when this fails is there any pathway for a vote to happen again in the future or is this sort of a one shot deal and after that Scotland is in the UK forevermore?

A lot of stars need to align again. That's why its so crazy to throw away the opportunity because you don't like who's delivering it.

 

[Borachio]

I'd say if they get a no vote, then the SNP will take the undoubtedly large minority yes vote as encouragement to push for another vote as soon as possible. Could be 10 years. Could be as little as 3.

But yes or no, things are definitely changing. The simplest might be a no vote.