Reform of 'PDMA' Guidelines and Establishment of Public Appeal Thread/Forum

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That example just adds to one of the problems of maintaining this so-called "kid-friendly website" while also allowing threads which are clearly sexual in their intent. The babe thread is truly disgusting, and objectifies women in a very degrading manner for all those involved. Luckymoose has said it already, but there either needs to be a clear set of defining rules that also encompasses things like pornographic material. There should be no loopholes nor excuses about how people will just find it anyways, if this is to be the website it labels itself, it currently is not doing a good job as of October 19th 2014.
 
there is no official default since every situation is different (unless you're talking about ad-spam or some other the few other things clearly laid out in the rules).

JJ in this hypothetical would likely get a message or have his post edited or deleted for him. and if he is personally insulting he'd likely get an infraction from me. I tend to go soft on politically (personal to me) offensive opinions but hard on personal insults. I hold to the view that a mature and fruitful discussion can be had about complex subjects, but insults derail and have no place on civil discourse. that's me, though.

and I completely agree with you about the Babe thread(s).


Thing is, the 13yo can find what they're looking for just about anywhere. I agree that I don't think this is the forum for that, but your hypothetical 13yo will find the stuff one way or another.

I'd strongly prefer they do it somewhere else.
Just because kids can find this stuff elsewhere is no reason to enable it here.

Back in the early-ish days of A&E, I had a discussion with TaniciusFox, who wanted to post some drawings. I vetoed some of them on the grounds of being too explicitly sexual. He countered with "look what's allowed in the babe threads" so I had a look at the then-current threads... and found a lot of photos that were in clear violation of the rules. Those threads aren't monitored often enough to make sure they fall into the guidelines (ironic, me telling a bunch of male moderators that they need to look at pictures of barely-clothed women more often). A recent brief look confirmed to me that there is still insufficient care taken in those threads.

Maybe a compromise could be an 18+ subforum that operates like a group that people have to opt-in to post and read?

This caused a major backlash in the NES subforum, actually. One user expresses violent and extreme ideological goals, but isn't touched (even though the rules forbid such things), but people calling out said individual for being an extremist are infracted. It causes a major divide in user trust in moderation staff, especially when discussing these sorts of issues falls under PDMA and increases user punishment. Personally, if your website wants to save the children it shouldn't allow such extreme political views the light of day (you wouldn't let Al-Qaeda recruit here, would you?), but should allow users to call one another out directly on such beliefs.

As for the babe thread, it was just an example. If you're going to allow a babe thread the least you could do is have a hunk thread, otherwise it seems sexually biased. I would rather my own children see naked women than anarchist extremism.
There is a hunk thread. Thing is, there are not that many women here who are interested enough to use it, and in my case, if I want to post a picture of an attractive man, I do so on my Cheezburger site. I keep it within the bounds of good taste there, with an appropriate caption, and the people who like it can "fave" it to their own collections. I'm not sure that those are pictures that would be of much interest to the mostly-male, younger-than-me populace of OT.
 
Thing is, the 13yo can find what they're looking for just about anywhere. I agree that I don't think this is the forum for that, but your hypothetical 13yo will find the stuff one way or another.

I'd strongly prefer they do it somewhere else.

While the presence of the babe thread is rather disgusting and abhorrent, and a particular pet peeve of mine on this forum. The problem lies not in its existence, but in the posturing the forum takes regarding being "family friendly" or maintaining some kind of "moral superiority" above the riffraff of the rest of the internet. It's bizarre to me that for the near-entirety of cfc's existence you have been able to post highly sexualized images of women that totally dehumanizes the subject, while you can't post nude art outside of a very seldom visited arts ghetto subforum, you can't swear at all, it took a ton of pushing to get the right to discuss rap music, and even then you can only discuss maybe 20% of hip hop music.

If cfc wants to be a family-friendly site, that's fine, but then the babe thread has no business existing. If it wants to operate on the assumption that "kids are going to find this sort of stuff if they go on the internet" then why bother holding this two-faced, demonstrably false bull[feces]?
 
While the presence of the babe thread is rather disgusting and abhorrent, and a particular pet peeve of mine on this forum. The problem lies not in its existence, but in the posturing the forum takes regarding being "family friendly" or maintaining some kind of "moral superiority" above the riffraff of the rest of the internet. It's bizarre to me that for the near-entirety of cfc's existence you have been able to post highly sexualized images of women that totally dehumanizes the subject, while you can't post nude art outside of a very seldom visited arts ghetto subforum, you can't swear at all, it took a ton of pushing to get the right to discuss rap music, and even then you can only discuss maybe 20% of hip hop music.

If cfc wants to be a family-friendly site, that's fine, but then the babe thread has no business existing. If it wants to operate on the assumption that "kids are going to find this sort of stuff if they go on the internet" then why bother holding this two-faced, demonstrably false bull[feces]?
While I'm pleased that we're in some agreement about the 'babe' threads, I take exception to your insistence on referring to Arts & Entertainment as a "ghetto." As I recall, you were once a regular poster there, and so you know that there's more than just fluff going on in that forum.
 
I'll throw in some thoughts.

I remember that somebody upthread made some comment to the effect that the rules on "family-friendliness" are essentially snapshots of what was believed in the early 2000s. I more or less agree with that. As we and the site have all aged a decade, some of the norms are actually out of date and no longer really sync with what would be considered "family friendly" if this forum had stqarted a decade later.

I haven't looked up any hard evidence, but my best guess is that a random sample of Anglophone people would consider swearing considerably less problematic today than they would have ten years ago. Objectification of women, on the other hand, probably goes the other way around. I seriously doubt there would be Babe Threads if CFC were a decade younger, and I also seriously doubt that posting mostly-bleeped swear words (or perhaps the words themselves) would be forbidden either.

CFC's rules and enforcement thereof are extremely conservative in the sense that rules are very difficult to change and rarely change much. I don't really have a problem enforcing them even in the cases where I don't personally agree, mostly because CFC has some of the most civil and interesting discussion than I've seen on the Internet. I find it difficult to believe this could have happened without a strict ruleset, even if imperfectly enforced. So I'm willing to give people infractions for language and whatnot, because the structure of the system itself still works fairly well. The conservatism of the system has disadvantages too; I for instance would be fine with more relaxed PDMA rules, and there has indeed been discussion in the staff forum about what specifically we would be willing to allow, but no consensus as to what form this would take has yet been reached. Discussion is still ongoing.

About advocating violence: we obviously do not allow specific threats of violence, or advocation of violence against specific ethnic groups, religions, sexual orientations, and so forth. We do, however, often allow people to express opinions that imply that some level of violence will be involved. The decision whether or not to allow such an opinion is very much case-by-case.

As an example, threads advocating war or more limited military action are normally allowed, even though advocating war is equivalent to advocating violence. Similarly, a variety of posters have political positions that imply some level of violence: these range from any Communist who believes that violent revolution is necessary, to many anarchists of both the left and right wing varieties, to neo-conservatives advocating the imposition of "democracy" by military force, to even modern-day "moderates" who'd support drone strikes.

Any thread that's allowed to discuss off-topic issues (such as the old WWW thread, which I reviewed extensively and summarized) will end up hitting issues that involve violence sooner or later.

In the particular case that happened to contribute to the unrest in NES, a poster made comments relating to the Ferguson incident from an ultra-libertarian, anarcho-capitalist perspective, in which he made it clear that he thought it was acceptable to use force against government agents who were violating one's rights, as he defined them. I completely disagree with his positions, but they were not fundamentally different from other revolutionary opinions including the ones held by many Communists, among others that involve the abstract possibility of violence. No actual violence was threatened.

Both the poster in question and people responding to him received several infractions for incivility, but nothing was ruled to be inappropriate content. I agree with that decision; no opinions I saw expressed would have been disallowed in OT. Ultimately, the perception that we care more about how an opinion is expressed than about the opinion itself is generally correct. We won't allow blatant racism, sexism, homophobia, etc, nor will we allow explicit (not abstract) advocation of violence, among a few other things. But I see OT moderation as being mostly about keeping people with a very diverse group of opinions interacting civilly. Within a few limits, most expressions of opinion, even nutty opinions, are allowed. OT in particular wouldn't be interesting without its nuts.
 
For what it's worth I agree that the Babe Threads are not totally keeping with the family friendly vibe, even though they only exist in the dark corner of the Internet known as Off Topic.
 
Moderation is not a job, it's a hobby. As no-one is paid to do it, every aspect of the role is on a voluntary basis.
Here, let me help you with this:

Oxford Dictionaries said:
2 A task or piece of work, especially one that is paid:
she wants to be left alone to get on with the job


2.1A responsibility or duty:
it’s our job to find things out

Source: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/job

This issue of civility is a different kettle of fish. The requests raised in this thread are most probably being discussed in the Staff forums. If want some of the moderators to fight your corner, then it would behoove you to not be churlish towards them.
I don't think most of us non-moderators have any idea of what's going on inside that secret room. The best we can do is to judge the situation based on what's been said already by the participating staff members. And so far, the feedback from them had been largely negative and that'd be a reasonable estimate on the average sentiment of the moderators at large.

If this is an incorrect assessment, these sympathetic moderators can speak up.

While mods do sometimes intercede to try and resolve conflict between posters, they do that on behalf of the forum at large, not on behalf of the two posters. Our job is not really mediating disputes. Our job is maintaining a vibrant and civil forum where people of all ages can come and talk about Civilization. Everything else flows from that basic premise.

If two posters are going at it and ruining a thread for example, a mod could try and intercede via PM and get them to cool off, or a mod could warn them in the thread, or infract them, or take some other action to maintain civility and a clean discussion. The goal is not so much resolving the posters' dispute however; it is simply to end their public display of it. Actually resolving the underlying dispute would be outside our job description.
No, I don't think anyone expected you to be Judge Judy and it turns out you've summarized my point quite well in the bolded section. Intercede, warn, and infract are tools in the moderating arsenal with different effects. A good moderator tend to know how and when to use them. Less tactful moderators, though, would often choose the nuclear option.

It doesn't seem, to me, to me an unreasonable contribution to suggest to someone who is basically saying 'stop infracting me just for committing infractable offences' that maybe they should consider just taking the rules seriously.
It becomes annoying when some moderators start bending the definition of rules just to infract, which is what ticked me off in the first place.

Not that I am disagreeing with JJ though, since IRL, people don't try to "infract" others over minor things. It'd be consider socially inept to be so unrelentingly rigid. Stannis from ASoIF/GoT is such an example (yes, he's a fictional character).
 
RE: a few preceding posts:
It should be obvious that this thread is being rather lightly moderated.

On second thought, I will respond to this:

Yes, it is very obvious and we all know the reasons. It is encouraged for this type of strategy to be used in the moderation of the entire CFC and I hope you will agreed with me on this.
 
While the presence of the babe thread is rather disgusting and abhorrent, and a particular pet peeve of mine on this forum. The problem lies not in its existence, but in the posturing the forum takes regarding being "family friendly" or maintaining some kind of "moral superiority" above the riffraff of the rest of the internet. It's bizarre to me that for the near-entirety of cfc's existence you have been able to post highly sexualized images of women that totally dehumanizes the subject, while you can't post nude art outside of a very seldom visited arts ghetto subforum, you can't swear at all, it took a ton of pushing to get the right to discuss rap music, and even then you can only discuss maybe 20% of hip hop music.

If cfc wants to be a family-friendly site, that's fine, but then the babe thread has no business existing. If it wants to operate on the assumption that "kids are going to find this sort of stuff if they go on the internet" then why bother holding this two-faced, demonstrably false bull[feces]?

Yeah...
Spoiler :

821f90_3984301.jpg
So, this is "ok" but some ancient greek bust is a problem?
Because nipples?
What's next? Dry humping? Dressed women scissoring each other?

PS:
Please be advised that i have no objection to the concept of a "babe thread" in theory. I'm just terribly annoyed because the thread is completely incompatible with my taste and has an atmosphere that would make it uncomfortable to balance that myself, by posting in it. In a nutshell: The damn thing is wall to wall ginormous udders and women bent in silly, childish poses.
That doesn't work for me, hence i am ready to pile on.
Yeah, i'm mean and cynical that way.
No really: It's not a "hot babe thread" as much as a "fetish thread".

PPS:
What's with the term "babe" anyway?!
Goddamn Anglospherians...
 
For what it's worth I agree that the Babe Threads are not totally keeping with the family friendly vibe, even though they only exist in the dark corner of the Internet known as Off Topic.

A lot of what is posted on the Babe thread is no different the what you would see at a day at the beach, unless that is considered family unfriendly.

@megatron, I think pictures shouldn't be sexually suggestive, but somehow they are acceptable.
 
I take the rare opportunity to agree with c_h here. The irrational North American fear of nipples is just beyond absurd and while I stopped trying to understand it decades ago I'll take this opportunity to point out the differences describing 'family friendly' & 'nsfw'.
Actually I got sort of inspired it by Bill Maher's last night's program where a new Finnish stamp was used to illustrate some differences between US & Finland, in this case Harvey Milk vs Tom of Finland. A naked male, in this case most likely gay male, ass is totally suitable for a stamp here and one assumes that stamps are still family friendly objects. Bare in mind that Finland is stll years away from gender neutral marriage etc. That & 2 other related stamps are illustrated in the Finnish Postal Service's website. To keep it safe I'll only give a link.

http://www.posti.fi/english/current/2014/20140413_stamps.html

I'm genderly challenged to evaluate the babe thread but so far I haven't seen there anything unsuitable for 7 & 9 old girls but in general their interest is elsewhere. The hunk thread I'm less familiar with but I assume it's much the same and oddly enough their mother seems to agree. On the other hand I could be a result of a perverted childhood as I don't see there anything which would've worried my parents when I was in my early teens. A high schooler living at home topless girlie calendars on the wall didn't seem to bother anyone else either and that was very family friendly place. Clothed people? Not suitable for teens, really?
Whether the threads are deameaning towards women/men/something in between is another matter but people seem to actively seek career in modeling which so far is legal so I don't have a problem in that respect either.

And if something isn't family friendly then it apparently becomes nsfw, too. There might be a grey area in between but let's leave it out for simplicity. By that, pretty much every newspaper, magazine, news website, tv channel etc would be nsfw nevermind a slightly larger issue called 'summer'. The demarcation line drawn here is nowhere near that of the US by which the CFC seems to draw its.

Not so surprisingly I'm all for ditching the current family friendly sentiment and if it was given up I very much doubt this would turn into a pornhub for kids. It's still much easier to write porn into a search engine and youngsters really aren't looking for something modest in a hard way when something much raunchier stuff is available with ease.
 
Ain't you still a mod, Mr. Scævola?
 
Here, let me help you with this:

You failed to mention the definition to which I was fairly clearly referring.

1. A paid position of regular employment

I don't think most of us non-moderators have any idea of what's going on inside that secret room. The best we can do is to judge the situation based on what's been said already by the participating staff members. And so far, the feedback from them had been largely negative and that'd be a reasonable estimate on the average sentiment of the moderators at large.

If this is an incorrect assessment, these sympathetic moderators can speak up.

They said they are discussing it. Discussions don't last long when everyone is in agreement, so I imagine there is some debate going on. As I said previously: you are not doing the 'reform' argument any favours.
 
Ain't you still a mod, Mr. Scævola?
Yep, but his post contains no link to where the image was posted, and I am not going to search it down. If I happend upon it, I would report it (to the OT) mod with my take on it included.
 
All of them are volunteers. It's not as if there was a conscription sche- unhand me, you ruffians!
 
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