Refusing to win(?)

The problem with tactics is that many diverse groups have used them over the years. Just because the military approach worked with some or many, I don't know, doesn't mean it will work this time. History does us no good in this situation. Can you find a similar environment like this conflict in history?

You can win battles against them, I don't deny that, but you have to find a solution for the entire region. Wiping out Hamas, however desirable, doesn't take away the situation, it delays violence like any other solution tried.
 
The problem with tactics is that many diverse groups have used them over the years. Just because the military approach worked with some or many, I don't know, doesn't mean it will work this time. History does us no good in this situation. Can you find a similar environment like this conflict in history?

You can win battles against them, I don't deny that, but you have to find a solution for the entire region. Wiping out Hamas, however desirable, doesn't take away the situation, it delays violence like any other solution tried.

Every situation is unique in one way or another, that doesn't mean the principle does not apply.

My chain of thought is: Gaza is small, it can be occupied (and it actually was occupied for a long time) and what's more important, it can easily be cut off from the outside world (unlike South Vietnam or Afghanistan).

The gravest mistake the Israelis have made was to trust Egypt and the UN to stop the smuggling. They should have estabilished an Israeli-occupied zone between Gaza Strip and Egypt to prevent smuggling of weapons and explosives.

The small size and easily controllable borders are in my opinion a great advantage. With some effort, Israel could disarm/destroy Hamas and stop it from rebuilding. That would be the first step.

The second one is to do some nation-building, which is always the hard part. Israelis should hand pick some less radical Palies willing to cooperate and use them to rule Gaza. They'd be the sole distributors of aid, they'd run hospitals and schools etc. This would ensure the other Palestinians would have no other option but to accept them as the new government. At the same time, Israel could control the situation in Gaza, so there would be no Jihadist Mickey Mouse telling kids to kill the Jews or similar crap.

Slowly, as the situation would stabilize, Israel would also help to improve the economic situation by allowing the Gaza residents to work in Israel (the border checks would remain extremelly strict to prevent suicide bombers from infiltrating Israel), renewing trade links between Gaza and the rest of the world etc.

Sure, this would take years, but it's better than staying out and letting the radicals run the place as they want.
 
I think the article is indicative of two things:

That apparently a lot of Isrealis do hold a firm conviction that the Palestinians are every bit as powerful as they are, or conversely, that the Israeli public really is just as exposed and vulnerable to Palestinian violence as the Palestinians are to Israeli violence.

And that the conflict they find themselves in with the Palestinians really has a military solution.

The first is about perceptions of self and others and hard to discuss for that reason. But how reasonable is the analogy between Israel/WWII UK and the Palestinians/WWII Germany really?

The problem with the continued assumption that a military victory will work is as always, one of "OK, but what then?" If the analogy with WWII Germany is supposed to work out politically, it also requires the existance of an actual Palestinian state. The basic problem here imo, is for Israel to be able to win a military victory, it first requires a Palestinian state for it to defeat.

I'm fine with Israel winning every damn war there might ever be over such a political entity, if war there has to be. Just get the damn thing in place first.
 
Am I saying something else?

No, what I'm saying (in a roundabout way) is that it's possible to support the cause of an organization like Hamas yet disagree with it's tactics.
 
Every situation is unique in one way or another, that doesn't mean the principle does not apply.

My chain of thought is: Gaza is small, it can be occupied (and it actually was occupied for a long time) and what's more important, it can easily be cut off from the outside world (unlike South Vietnam or Afghanistan).

The gravest mistake the Israelis have made was to trust Egypt and the UN to stop the smuggling. They should have estabilished an Israeli-occupied zone between Gaza Strip and Egypt to prevent smuggling of weapons and explosives.

The small size and easily controllable borders are in my opinion a great advantage. With some effort, Israel could disarm/destroy Hamas and stop it from rebuilding. That would be the first step.

The second one is to do some nation-building, which is always the hard part. Israelis should hand pick some less radical Palies willing to cooperate and use them to rule Gaza. They'd be the sole distributors of aid, they'd run hospitals and schools etc. This would ensure the other Palestinians would have no other option but to accept them as the new government. At the same time, Israel could control the situation in Gaza, so there would be no Jihadist Mickey Mouse telling kids to kill the Jews or similar crap.

Slowly, as the situation would stabilize, Israel would also help to improve the economic situation by allowing the Gaza residents to work in Israel (the border checks would remain extremelly strict to prevent suicide bombers from infiltrating Israel), renewing trade links between Gaza and the rest of the world etc.

Sure, this would take years, but it's better than staying out and letting the radicals run the place as they want.
Well, there's a reason for Israel not wanting the burden of responsibility of occupying Palestinian territories and population anymore. I don't see them willing to do it again.

At this point, after Gaza, hearing the comments from people like Hanan Ashrawi, i.e. moderates on the Palestinian side, there is no longer any Palestinians willing to give the Israeli government the time of day, much less cooperate with it.

The economic side of the suggestion is absolutely sound though. The problem is, Israel wasn't actually remiss in checking people back at the time when the suicide bomber attacks occurred. It will never be able to stop the odd suicide bomber that way, so eventually one will blow himself up in the wrong place inside Israel, killing the idea. Unless of course the Israels are willing to take that risk, and absorb the odd attack with relative equanimity. But they're not, so the idea is out.

Afaik the Israel-Palestine conflict is quite possibly entering an entirely new level of FUBAR.

I actually agree with this post of yours... Or rather, it's the thing to do... a decade ago. At this point, it's way too late to try. Unless, as said, the Israelis are willing to take a lot more crap to make it work than they have so far demonstrated willingness to do.
 
Given the regular chants of "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" and so on from various complainants, one might think Israel was killing Palestinians at a rate greater than 1/1000th of the rate at which Hitler killed Jews in WW2.

However, this UN report (PDF) gives the number of Palestinians dead from the conflict in 2005, 2006 and 2007 as 216, 678 and 396. Figuring that WW2 lasted from 1938 to 1945 inclusive, that's 8 years; 6000000/(8*1000) = 750; 750 > 678.
 
Well, there's a reason for Israel not wanting the burden of responsibility of occupying Palestinian territories and population anymore. I don't see them willing to do it again.

I understand their reasons. They pulled out of Gaza because they hoped it would lead to peace. Well, that was a wrong idea and now it's time to re-evaluate the strategy.

At this point, after Gaza, hearing the comments from people like Hanan Ashrawi, i.e. moderates on the Palestinian side, there is no longer any Palestinians willing to give the Israeli government the time of day, much less cooperate with it.

Well, it's not about what they want. You can always find people willing to cooperate, especially if their only alternative is starvation. Israel could also use some Israeli Arabs (those who don't want to destroy Israel) to act as moderators.

The economic side of the suggestion is absolutely sound though. The problem is, Israel wasn't actually remiss in checking people back at the time when the suicide bomber attacks occurred. It will never be able to stop the odd suicide bomber that way, so eventually one will blow himself up in the wrong place inside Israel, killing the idea. Unless of course the Israels are willing to take that risk, and absorb the odd attack with relative equanimity. But they're not, so the idea is out.

I am talking about a situation where Gaza has been disarmed and the major terrorist networks crushed. Of course there would be risk of an individual suicide attack, but that's something Israel would have to risk if it wanted to stabilize Gaza. In other words, it's a choice between the certainty that dozens of rockets will be fired at you every day from an Islamist-controlled Gaza and the risk of an occasional suicide attack.

Afaik the Israel-Palestine conflict is quite possibly entering an entirely new level of FUBAR.

Seconded, but as you said once - accepting the notion that a situation went FUBAR makes people seek radical solutions.

I actually agree with this post of yours... Or rather, it's the thing to do... a decade ago. At this point, it's way too late to try. Unless, as said, the Israelis are willing to take a lot more crap to make it work than they have so far demonstrated willingness to do.

I am sceptical too. I think there will be a radical solution, sooner or later. In Israel there is a growing sense of looming danger on all sides. Not a good atmosphere for peace talks.
 
Maybe the majority of the Israelian population are just a decent enough that they want to sit this through without killing tens of thousands of (innocent as well as guilty) Palestinians. Just a thought.
 
I understand their reasons. They pulled out of Gaza because they hoped it would lead to peace. Well, that was a wrong idea and now it's time to re-evaluate the strategy.
Except they now have to do it under more shayt conditions than before. They will not be reoccupying it. Suggesting it is political poison in Israel, and the Israelis will have to get a damn sight more desperate to face up to this again.
Well, it's not about what they want. You can always find people willing to cooperate, especially if their only alternative is starvation. Israel could also use some Israeli Arabs (those who don't want to destroy Israel) to act as moderators.
Yes, well, if you're talking about a small number of window-dressing Israeli stooges, under 24/7 Israeli military protection, in it for the money, with no credibility with anyone and of nothing but symbolic use to the Israelis. Then fine. Just remind me what use it is you think their are going to be?
I am talking about a situation where Gaza has been disarmed and the major terrorist networks crushed. Of course there would be risk of an individual suicide attack, but that's something Israel would have to risk if it wanted to stabilize Gaza. In other words, it's a choice between the certainty that dozens of rockets will be fired at you every day from an Islamist-controlled Gaza and the risk of an occasional suicide attack.
Yes. That will require, oh, maybe a decade of up-close and personal military occupation, hunting terrorists et al., the IDF subjecting itself to all manner of risks and casualties they don't run now, and which the Israeli public is loathe to accept. And that's just to get the situation to the first stage of your plan. At this point Israel clearly isn't prepared to do anything of the sort.

In the mean time you can of course completely close off Gaza, which will mean nowhere to went frustration and desperation except inside Gaza, but whaddaya know; the IDF will be moving around inside it in force, and since they will be responsible for every man, woman and child inside, they will be engaged in all manner of things requiring more than just protecting themselves, meaning opportunities to hurt them. (I strongly doubt Isreal will get the opportunity of having the UN around for this.) And if the place isn't a giant open-air prison camp already, this way it most certainly will be one.

Or, to ease the preassure, you accept screened Palestinians working in Israel again, for preference those Gazans who still have personal friendly relations with private Israeli citizens on the other side since the last time the could work in Israel. The problem is that there is still only a matter of time until a suicide-bomber slips through. Essentially it means giving the Hamas, or somesuch, a couple of free blows at Israel. At this point the Israelis absolutely will not take that risk. As soon as a sucide-bombers sets himself off, this falls apart. And again, for the Israelis to accept risks like that for a future possible, but uncertain, trade-off, they are going to have to get a damn sight more desperate than today. Again this is political poison in Israel.
Seconded, but as you said once - accepting the notion that a situation went FUBAR makes people seek radical solutions.
Yes, then you get them anyway. In this case it starts with Hamas growing in the West Bank, and the possibility of Islamists taking over various Arab nations, beginning with Egypt most likely. If you're going to root out the terrorists in Gaza, odds are very substantial it will prove necessary to reoccupy the West Bank to do the same, which will be harder to do and require even more Isreali blood and resources. At some point it becomes unworkable, in the sense that too much of the Israeli national effort could be drawn into to it to the neglect of a bunch of equally necessary stuff. The Palestinian hardliners will want this at least.
I am sceptical too. I think there will be a radical solution, sooner or later. In Israel there is a growing sense of looming danger on all sides. Not a good atmosphere for peace talks.
The likeliset radical solution is that the Islamists win large chunks of the ME, we have one or more major wars there again, and Israel either never makes it to its centennial, or does it only as an undemocratic aparthaid state, still beleagured, its future still uncertain, no resolution in sight.

As far as I'm concerned it's all a lose-lose situation. Gaza has been a festering situation for a long time. I'm real pessimistic here. You could say that Israel is trying to "lance the boil" here. The problem with the continuation of that metaphor is that in doing so, it has likely set contminant agents flying all over the place.

What you have suggested could work. If the Israelis have the stamina for it. At this point, nothing suggests they do. What you've called for requires for Israelis in general to embrace the conflict and step into it, in a sense, when they have spent the last decade trying to insulate and separate themselves from it. For, I imagine, pretty different reasons, I think we agree that could be a good thing.
 
I think that Hamas are not terrorists but are legitimate freedom fighters. I think Egypt are justified in supporting them too. I think Israel should cease its ethnic cleansing of the Gaza strip.
"terrorists" or "freedom fighters" depends solely on which side you choose.

Hamas is not terrorist only because it keeps murdering Israelis, it also murders its own people for propaganda purposes. They use media as a weapon and every dead Palie kid caught on camera is worth more than 1000 Qassam rockets.

Still, for some reason, Israel tolerates this abomination on its borders and certain useful idiots praise it.
At last you are using your propaganda skills for good.

In the long run situation in Gaza strip is insustanaible. Israel do not want them as there too much Muslim Arabs, Egypt is also do not want to take responsiblity nor he would like to settle them. Eventually it will a lot of blood if radically new approaches will not take place, for example, one from Gaza strip can become citizen if he become Jew (i.e. convert to Judaism). Another way is to introduce population control there but democrats all over the world will cry as crazy.
 
Good reply. Pity it will fall on deaf ears. The notion that you can somehow eliminate terrorism militarily while doing nothing to address the causes that drive people to terrorism is a delusion of the highest order. Trying to explain to some people why it is delusion is probably a waste of breath, but at least you made the attempt. Nice try anyway, mate.:sad:
 
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I feel this is pretty appropriate.

Edit: In order not to be a complete jerk, here is the site for the comic: http://www.angryflower.com/
 
I think someone's missing the point.

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I don't see this conflict ending anytime soon. I support Israel's right to defend itself in whatever way it sees fit, yet I don't see this problem being handled by a military solution without a lot more bloodshed and a shockingly higher level of violence. They teach there children it's a great honor to blow themselves up. How do you reason with people like that?
 
How do you reason with people like that?
In Afghanistan Brits used to killed them and bury in pig skin. According to Muslim beliefs he who was buried like this will not respawn in paradise.

This method was also used against Chechen kamikadze shahids whose bodies were found after Nord Ost siege.
 
In Afghanistan Brits used to killed them and bury in pig skin. According to Muslim beliefs he who was buried like this will not respawn in paradise.

This method was also used against Chechen kamikadze shahids whose bodies were found after Nord Ost siege.


I don't think that is going to help the situation much considering the area of the orld Israel is in. I also am not big on disrespecting the bodies of the dead, even if they are my enemy.
 
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