Regent Succession Game

[Optional]

Why build knights?

In a way, we already have knights: Ancient Cavalries!
Berserks do have a defense of 2, but yeah, the odd pike will save us a lot of trouble.

I remembered something about some rule that might still need to be cleared up: Daeron, did you not once say that once we've taken a town from an AI civ, we are not allowed to sign peace with them again? What about (auto)razed towns? I assume you meant both taken and razed towns to fall under this rule, but it's not clear.

There's one thing I would like to hear others about. We want swordsmen for the war, but we also want to start building archers already. Ideally, we are going to be building archer after archer once we're ready for the war with Rome. So when are we ready? We're in need for leaders anyway, so we don't need to steamrolll them anyway, we can take our time.

So, I'd say see if we can poprush a few cats from tundra towns, build at least half a dozen swordsmen more and send a settler across to make that beachhead in peace time before Roman borders expand. I think then we can declare.

I think we can settle that beachhead now. And a few cats and Ancient Cavalries would be enough to safely declare. We'll see the odd Roman archer or spear, and can bombard, attack and retreat without exposing ourselves.
For actually capturing Rome itself it might be sensible to have a few more swords first. When is Feudalism coming in? We could perhaps wait for the upgrade to Medieval Infantry for Rome.
I'm not sure we should or even can pop-rush from our tundra towns. I actually remember one town was set to a temple to get a whale in, but it's questionable whether that extra shield wouldn't get corrupted away, so perhaps a catapult from there might be doable. Otherwise a harbour, that's half the price of a temple and allows a lot more tiles to be worked for growth.

A couple of cats would certainly make a lot of difference.

 

[Calis]

For pop rushing cats we need a size two town and one shield in the bin. Then we can pop rush...

 

[Optional]

Thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking that's the way it could work, but I never pop-rush, so I wasn't sure. Yes, than the gains would probably outweigh the pains.

 

[EvilConqueror]

We don't know whether a blockade against a civ at war will work, because the AI does attack galleys with galleys.

I'm not 100% sure but I don't believe they'll attack if they're transporting something.

Having examined the save I'd like to examine two possibilities for the next set. Either of which could be adopted or they could be used as a means of describing some alternate approach as preferences suggest.

I like the six city approach but I'd push the two southern cities further south (to the blue dots):

Furher considerations: We should keep in mind that Chivalry is not too distant. Aside from knights having Knights Templar could be a plus.

Crusaders are nice to have but I don't think they will be as useful in this game as they normally are. By the time we build Templar, most of our attacks will be amphibious. So, any crusaders we have would likely take the role of defenders rather than attackers. And for the 300 shield price, we could build 10 pikes instead.

For upgrading 10 or so archers to berserks, it's not worthwhile to build a 600 shields wonder.

I agree.

I fear it's even worse. Berserks only have a defense of 1 if I am not completely mistaken. But send some pikes along and everything is fine. They all have a movents of one. Why build knights?

Nope, berserks have a defense of 2.

Berzerks and knights both cost 70 shields and for that price I'd rather have the much stronger berserk. 30 shield pikes are much more cost effective defenders.

So, I'd say see if we can poprush a few cats from tundra towns, build at least half a dozen swordsmen more and send a settler across to make that beachhead in peace time before Roman borders expand. I think then we can declare.

That should be a good force.

Are we go to try to hold cities or raze? I'd prefer to try to hold but that will require more units to station near captured cities to protect them from flips and enemy units.

Either way, I would keep building swords until we're confident that we have enough to finish off Rome.

 

[Daeron]

We have more culture than Rome, so we should play finders keepers, losers wheepers. Any city that already has a harbor is worth hanging onto in my opinion.

By the way, we should switch 006 Bodo to work the goldhill. The forested tundra SW of Trondheim is enough to keep the SF going. Just need to make sure it stays free. And this way we get all that extra commerce every turn.

 

[MinutiaRules]

Played the next 10.

Spoiler :

1) 350 BC -

Set Trondheim to wealth.
Switched Bergen to military.
Traded CoL to Celts for 71 gold.
Switch of 006 to gold shows no apparent gain -> switched 001
to cut one turn off research.
Adjust sci for net gain.
Switch 012 from temple to cat. Rush.
Switch 014 from harbor to cat. Rush.
Switch 009 from harbor to cat. Rush.
Start settler to pickup point for boat ride.


2) 330 BC -

001 start settler.
005 gets harbor, cat.
009 cat. -> cat.
012, 014 cats -> harbors.
trade philo to Rome for 16 gold.

3) 310 BC -

002 Horse (for mainland defense) -> swrd.
003 Archer -> swrd. Send swrd to pickup pt.
010 Wrk -> galley.
009 Rush cat.
005 rush cat.

4) 290 BC -

004 Archer -> arch.
005 Cat. -> galley.
009 Cat. -> temple.
016 Tromso founded near Romes iron.

5) 270 BC -

002 AC. Arch -> swrd.
mm 001, 002.
Trade philo to Germany for 20g
Trade CoL to Aztecs for 41 g

6) 250 BC -

001 Settler -> settler. mm.
003 Arch -> sword.

7) 230 BC -

008 harbor -> galley.
007 galley -> galley.
Adjust sci feud in 9, net gain.
001 mm.

8) 210 BC -

002 swrd -> swrd.
017 Vadso founded -> harbor.

9) 190 BC -

001 mm.
Adj sci. Fedudalism in 7 net 0.

10) 170 BC -

001 Settler -> Settler & mm.
003 Swrd -> Swrd.
004 Swrd -> Swrd.
Germany building MoM.
Change 010 to harbor.
002 AC.

------

As of 170 BC.

1 settler
20 wrkr
5 war
9 Arch
8 swrd
1 Horse
5 cat
3 AC
2 curragh
5 galley

Strong vs. everyone. Still way ahead in research. Not quite ready for war due to transport lag. Question is whether or not we're going to switch govs before declaring. I don't know how long the anarchy is and whether or not the duration is level dependent. Must keep in mind that if we are to enter into a prolonged conflict then WW will set in. However at the moment Rome is not well prepared.



And the save.

View attachment RegentSG_MR_170_BC.SAV

 

[Calis]

As far as I know the duration of anarchy is not level dependant. It's just a random number between 3 and 9.

Regarding war with Rome, we have to coordinate an attack on their mainland and the second island they started to colonize. Otherwise the war gets prolonged and war weariness can become a problem.

I suggest to start the war soon and when the end of the war is closing in, we revolt trying to get to Feudalism at the end of the war. As a result we won't get any war weariness.

Even under despotism war weariness starts to accumulate, but due to the governments would not show any effect. but switching to another government that is affected by WW results in immediate WW (if enough is accumulated).

 

[Optional]

I believe I am up. I had a look at the save, and I believe we are ready to declare war.

I personally favour revolting as soon as possible. Our core will become more productive in Feudalism.
Some war weariness will probably arise. I'm convinced it is not needed, as we have artillery and Ancient Cavalry, and I'll build a few pikes, while Rome's best units are archers and spears. Against those units you shouldn't be clocking up war weariness.
I would prefer to hang in that little corner of Rome's island a bit, until we have a nice force to march forward, but that'll not be in my set yet. Our town on Rome's island should get a barracks, definitely.

We should aim for the city of Rome and keep our units together before bothering about the little islands.

We could perhaps try and get some war happiness. A few times I've read in the forums about making an alliance, tied in with a peace treaty. Then if the alliance gets broken, that civ automatically declares war on you. I've never done it in my games, but this would be an ideal situation to try this if we don't consider that an exploit.

I need some input before I can play; the above things are only suggestions.

 

[Daeron]

I agree in that we should declare, we're strong enough and Rome doesn't even have horses or iron. So only low attackers and defenders and no fast units and the sooner we beat the Romans, the sooner we can get a second productive core going.

We could perhaps try and get some war happiness. A few times I've read in the forums about making an alliance, tied in with a peace treaty. Then if the alliance gets broken, that civ automatically declares war on you. I've never done it in my games, but this would be an ideal situation to try this if we don't consider that an exploit.

I'm up for trying that trick. I don't think it's an exploit either.

 

[EvilConqueror]

I'm not sure if it would be better to revolt now or wait but I do agree on waiting until all our forces are massed before pushing forward.

I'm not familiar with the alliance tactic.

 

[MinutiaRules]

We should aim for the city of Rome and keep our units together before bothering about the little islands.

Works for me.

We could perhaps try and get some war happiness. A few times I've read in the forums about making an alliance, tied in with a peace treaty. Then if the alliance gets broken, that civ automatically declares war on you. I've never done it in my games, but this would be an ideal situation to try this if we don't consider that an exploit.

I actualy don't understand the mechanism of what you are describing so I can't comment on the exploitive aspect. However if the team is okay with it I'd like to see how its done. And if we are going to do it let's make sure everyone understands the process.

We should aim for the city of Rome and keep our units together before bothering about the little islands.

Agreed we should take out their mainland first. In later conflicts with beserks we may find it convenient to take out satelites at the same time as the main invasions though.

 

[Optional]

The mechanism to set up an alliance with a peace treaty tied in is this:
* declare war
* go to your potential ally into the current deals
* bring the peace treaty on the table and say yes to renegotiate
* add the alliance(s) and bait as needed and make the deal

The only reason to do this is for war happiness. There's no certainty you will get it, because your partner(s) might honour the 20 turns, but if you make a few of these deals, the chance is good one of your allies won't, and then you get the war happiness.
We're many techs ahead of the AI, so to give 1 or 2 techs as trade bait wouldn't make too much of a difference for us.

The war happiness would make us stronger against any war weariness we could get from Rome. I think we shouldn't be getting any war weariness, because most of that comes from getting attacked, and if we don't leave our units exposed Rome will hardly be in the position to attack us.
The best way to advance is always to keep your units in one stack with a strong defender on top. Don't spread out, and don't pick off any stray enemy unit if it leaves your own units vulnerable to a counter attack.
If we do it right we haven't got much to fear from a civ that has archers as their best unit. The AI doesn't even like to attack with archers against a healthy pike or Ancient Cavalry.
But I'll try and strike up some war happiness as extra insurance. Even if we don't need it, it will free up some mp's, so it might be handy anyway. I'll play today.

 

[EvilConqueror]

Interesting. This certainly would seem like an ideal situation to use it like you said.

We'd also have to spend gold on embassies in order to be able to create alliances.

 

[Optional]

I played, and was lucky to have a much more interesting set than the previous players had. I went in and out of anarchy, we are in Feudalism now, and the war with Rome has started for real.

Pre-turn:

I'm looking at the save. I like the way the war has been prepared, with some catapults and workers present on Rome's island.
A couple of things to do with MM on our homeland I don't like:
* Birka is working a hill but it's got a harbour, so should be working a coastal tile for growth.
* Bodo same thing; it's working a forest tile, but plenty of +2 food tiles available. Don't choose shields over growth until a town is maxing in size!
* Worker management could be better: I'm seeing 5 workers grouped together roading a forest tile. That's the wrong amount, considering a forest takes 6 turns to road, but also workers shouldn't be grouped when roading. Every time a worker steps on a not yet roaded tile that's the end of his turn. In all other cases, on already roaded tiles, grouping can make sense, because the worker can go to the tile and start working without losing a turn.

Feudalism is to come in in 6 turns, doing 80% research, I'm turning that up a bit, the earlier in a goverment, the better.

I'm buying a couple of embassies;
Aztecs, Tenochtitlan, for 52 gold;
Celts, Entremont, for 39 gold;
India, Delhi, for 57 gold.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

What we're seeing is that hardly anybody knows anybody. Especially from the Aztecs I had expected more, because they've got the Great Lighthouse. Hardly any alliances can be made now.
We declare on Rome, after having sold them Currency for their 35 gold.
Then we make this deal with Brennus:

Spoiler :

This is a deal made in the hope to get some war happiness.

Then the turns; hit space:

IBT: The Celtic city of Alesia has completed the Oracle.

150BC:
Bergen: swordsman > settler (with anarchy upcoming)
Odense: harbour > catapult

130BC:
Rome has approached Tromso with an archer, a spear and a warrior, so time for some action:
catapults: 3 hits, 2 misses
our vet sword vs archer > win
our vet sword vs redlined spear > win + promotion
our vet AC vs yellowlined warrior > we retreat! Boohh!
our vet AC vs archer > win + promotion
Fast units are attacking last because they can retreat after battle. I'm leaving the yellowlined Roman warrior, because I have only swords left to attack him, and they would only get counter-attacked:

Upgrade a curragh to galley for 45 gold.
A worker near Tromso I'm having join the town, so now I can rush a barracks here. Good for upgrading and healing our busy troops.

110BC:
Copenhagen: archer > swordsman
Bodo: catapult > catapult
Tromso: barracks > harbour
Rome has sent another 2 archers to Tromso:
cats redline them both;
our vet AC vs redlined archer: win
I'm leaving the other redlined archer for now.

90BC:
Feudalism comes in! We will revolt as soon as possible, but that is at the end of the turn. We still want the production of this turn, of course. Next tech is Engineering.
Trondheim: settler > settler
Bergen: settler > pike
Tromso: upgrade 4 swords to MI (that's why we rushed the barracks here); 120 gold.
Rome has sent another archer to Tromso:
cat redlines;
our elite AC vs redlined archer > win

We revolt and draw a 6-turn anarchy; MM to avoid riots.
We found 018 Farsund.

70BC:
This seems to be the time to move up to Neapolis, as Rome only sent a warrior to Tromso this IBT; their better troops have dried up.
our MI vs warrior > win and promote
I'm not using the cats, because they move to Neapolis with the whole stack. Neapolis will autoraze, since it's back at size 1. Rome is whipping units to deal with us.
Sell Horsebackriding to Gandhi for 26 gold.
Every turn I'm checking whether Aztecs or Gandhi have met other civs, but this is not the case, so no alliances for happiness. It doesn't really matter if the war is going smooth like now.

50BC:
Attack Neapolis:
catapults: 3 hits, 2 misses
our vet AC vs yellowlined spear > win
our elite sword vs archer > win
our MI vs archer > win + promote
our elite AC vs redlined spear > we redline but win
Neapolis turns to rubble, and we get 1 gold.
Upgrade a sword to MI in Tromso for 30 gold.

30BC + 10BC:
Not much, just moving units.

10AD:
Attack Pompeii:
catapults: only need 4 of our 6 cats to redline 2 spears
our vet MI vs redlined spear > win
our elite MI vs redlined spear > win
Pompeii autorazes and we get 2 gold.
We found 019 Risor

30AD:
We are in Feudalism now!
Rome has sent an archer:
our elite AC vs archer > win
No bombardment, as our catapults are moving to the next town. Here's a picture of our front:

Antium will probably be the first town that we will manage to keep. Julius has also whipped there, but Antium seems to be big enough to stay on the map.
We found 020 Fauske.
I want to put a worker on a boat in Molde, but accidentally let him join the town. I can assure you I've made worse misclicks!

So, in short; the war with Rome is well under way now. We haven't had a unit attacked and haven't lost a unit. War weariness will not happen if we keep this up. We are just accumulating the odd war weariness point for being in enemy territory and we had 1 retreater. We can have that.
In my opinion our stack should stay together until at least Rome is captured. There are only 6 catapults as yet (of course in anarchy I couldn't add much), so if we split that we could easily see some losses.
Money is lower, because I upgraded everything I could, but that's what we have the money for, haven't we?
In our core we could mine some plains, because otherwise food will be wasted. It's just MM but it would help if we attended to that.

 

[MinutiaRules]

Neapolis turns to rubble, and we get 1 gold.

Here's something I didn't realize. Since Neapolis had a harbor shouldn't it have survived even at size 1 by disbanding the harbor? Did they also sell the harbor? Or is it only for some kinds of improvements? I mean I'm sure I've captured size 1 towns before. But maybe not.

 

[EvilConqueror]

If a size 1 city has expanded due to culture, you capture it.

 

[Calis]

One important thing. If we should get an MGL during our campaign against Rome, we should not immediately create an army with him (at least not fill it with units). With our galleys can't transport more than two units. In case of armies that is the army unit plus one units within the army. Thus we should send the empty army to the Celts and fill it up after landing on their home island. Otherwise an army would be trapped on the Romasn island, as we are not planning to research to Astronomy.

 

[Optional]

That's a very good point about an army; a army counts as 1 unit + every unit in it counts as 1 unit as well. So a galley can only transport a 1-unit army. That wouldn't be much use. A caravel can still only transport a 2-unit army. Only galleons would give the ability to transport 3-unit armies with Magnetism, but that's very far up the tech tree.
So Daeron's suggestion to use an MGL for the FP looks a very good one on this type of map. We might have to stop the game for some discussion the moment when we get a leader. I had some 5 elite wins, so we will get a leader at some point if we keep going like this.

 

[Bartleby]

lurker's comment: I'd be tempted to make a one-unit army anyway, and use it to win an easy battle so you can build the Heroic Epic.

 

[Calis]

lurker's comment: I'd be tempted to make a one-unit army anyway, and use it to win an easy battle so you can build the Heroic Epic.

I had the same thought, but it bears a high risk to lose the army...