Úmarth
Megalomaniac
Within Persia I expect, it's not really my area.
Religions discussion thread
- Thread starter Rhye
- Start date
Metal Alloy Man
Back in Black
- Joined
- May 6, 2008
- Messages
- 761
Zachscape is right, what he's proposing is the best idea I've heard so far and most of the modifications you propose can easily be added to it. It has the most depth and can represent basically everything brought up in this thread so far. I propose we use it as the base religion system for this mod and we can modify it as we wish. If you take a good look at it, I honestly think it has the most potential.
Rhye
's and Fall creator
I think that that mod would be a nice addition to RFC, but doesn't fix this context.
I am implementing the following:
- No generic cathedrals, monastery or shrines
- No missionaries
- 3 temples as national wonders, each one with different bonuses.
As follows:
- When polytheistic religions spread, they delete any monotheistic religion in a city. When monotheistic religions spread, they delete any other religion in a city, except if it is the holy city of another monotheistic religion.
Please fill the ???
I am implementing the following:
- No generic cathedrals, monastery or shrines
- No missionaries
- 3 temples as national wonders, each one with different bonuses.
As follows:
Spoiler :
- When polytheistic religions spread, they delete any monotheistic religion in a city. When monotheistic religions spread, they delete any other religion in a city, except if it is the holy city of another monotheistic religion.
Please fill the ???
Metal Alloy Man
Back in Black
- Joined
- May 6, 2008
- Messages
- 761
How about Ashur and Marduk for Mesopotamia? One to represent Babylon and one to represent Assyria. We already have Ba'al for Phoenicia and Israel should be Jewish.
BurnEmDown
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,718
I think Synagogue is more of a new-age term for temple. If it's going to be a national wonder (only 1 per civ) Then I think there's a building that'll fit perfectly for ancient Israel I just forgot it's name >_<.
For the 3rd one, it could be sort of a project, which will be called "Ark of the Covenant", I don't know what it's effects could be though, allow all religious civics? (remember even though it's a national wonder so everyone can build it only Jewish civs can build it so only Israel and perhaps one in 10 games someone else will build it).
However a project cannot be stolen or taken I've heard, and the Ark was indeed taken, most people thing it was taken by Egypt and somehow made it way to Ethiopia but there aren't any proofs of where it could be.
For the 3rd one, it could be sort of a project, which will be called "Ark of the Covenant", I don't know what it's effects could be though, allow all religious civics? (remember even though it's a national wonder so everyone can build it only Jewish civs can build it so only Israel and perhaps one in 10 games someone else will build it).
However a project cannot be stolen or taken I've heard, and the Ark was indeed taken, most people thing it was taken by Egypt and somehow made it way to Ethiopia but there aren't any proofs of where it could be.
Rhye
's and Fall creator
Christianity could go with
Church of Nativity
Hagia Sophia
Apostolic Palace
(of course, with different effects from the original)
We need 3 real ancient jewish buildings in Israel
Church of Nativity
Hagia Sophia
Apostolic Palace
(of course, with different effects from the original)
We need 3 real ancient jewish buildings in Israel
Úmarth
Megalomaniac
I think most of Apostolic Palace is medieval. St Peter's Basilica is probably better.
As for Judaism:
Solomon's Temple (First Temple)
Second Temple
Herod's Temple
As for Judaism:
Solomon's Temple (First Temple)
Second Temple
Herod's Temple
onedreamer
Dragon
Úmarth;8429811 said:
I disagree, polytheism is a heritage from before the age of civilization, basically any civ would be polytheist or animist in absence of other alternative, it wouldn't need to be spread to anyone, Judaism and Zoroastrism are (some of) the exceptions, but even if they did try to have foreign proselities, it doesn't appear that they were succesful to the point to justify missionaries, and actually a natural spread would be more realistic than missionaries.
In fact, in our proposal Polytheism wouldn't be a religion but a corporation in game terms, and it shouldn't follow the spreading rules of regular religions.
Though I'm not an respected poster like most other persons in this thread, I dare to suggest something radical:
Scrap the whole religion concept as it is implemented in vanilla civ and RFC, and replace it with a concept of cultures spreading between cities.
Let me explain why this is both more accurate and more interesting for the game:
First, it has already been discussed that ancient religions were always tied to certain peoples or cultural groups: the Romans had Jupiter's pantheon, the Greeks had Zeus' pantheon and so on. For every ancient polytheistic religion, there are no historical examples of religions spreading to another culture and becoming its dominant religion. So if we'd want to represent them correctly, we would have to code them to be restricted to their respective civs. That's silly if you consider the gameplay reasons for having a religion (see below).
Judaism behaves also like this, although it later spread to Rome. But it would be really weird if we represent small Jewish minorities in cities with its religion being there. Did a Jewish temple really increase the Roman's happiness?
Instead, there is something that played a much bigger role in antiquity: cultural groups and their extending influence. We have several examples for this. When Persia conquered Mesopotamia, its way of life and government spread there. Even more notable are of course the periods of Hellenisation (after Alexander's conquests Greek culture came to Asia Minor, the Levant and Egypt) and Romanisation. Naturally, this also meant a spreading of this culture's corresponding religions, but it was always the religion spreading with its culture, and never alone.
So I think we should start with the following "cultures":
Egyptian culture: Is founded when Egypt spawns.
Mesopotamian culture: Is founded when Babylonia/Assyria spawns.
Persian culture: Is founded when Persia spawns. Note that this also includes Zoroastrianism (which was the religion tied to Persian culture, it simply wasn't polytheistic).
Greek culture: Is founded when Athens spawns.
Roman culture: Is founded when Rome spawns (debatable how big the difference between Greek and Roman culture really is, but I think it would be fun to have a culturally divided Roman Empire like in reality).
Celtic culture / Germanic culture: Don't know if they are really necessary, although the spread of Germanic culture into the Roman Empire was very important in the Dark Ages.
Judaism: Founded when Israel spawns.
Of course, temples like in vanilla can still be built and give the normal +happiness bonus. They are now only tied to cultures, not to religions (e.g. Romans can build "Temple of Zeus", Egyptians can build "Temple of Ra" etc.).
Adopting a culture to be your "state culture" also gives the usual benefits.
The only difference is how culture spreads. When you found a city, it immediately gets your state culture. But conquered cities keep their culture and get an angry face for every present culture as long as your "state culture" isn't present as well. Each time you construct a building in this city, there is a chance that your "state culture" is spread to this city (the smaller the city, the higher the chance). This represents efforts of the conquerors to establish their way of life.
Okay, now Christianity comes into play. Christianity should be the only religion that behaves as in vanilla. It should spread by itself (and rather fast) and be able to construct missionaries. As long as you don't adopt it as your state religion, it causes huge happiness problems (maybe two angry faces in every city). If its your state religion, you get an angry face for every other culture present in your cities (now representing oppressed pagan faiths). So you have to decide and clean your cities from other cultures (via an "inquisitor" unit), which causes "We cannot forget your cruel oppression".
I think you get my idea. Even if you don't like it, please consider there should be a distinction between the ancient, culturally tied faiths and Christianity. They are not comparable at all and the arrival of Christianity should cause a lot of domestic problems, just as it did in reality.
Scrap the whole religion concept as it is implemented in vanilla civ and RFC, and replace it with a concept of cultures spreading between cities.
Let me explain why this is both more accurate and more interesting for the game:
First, it has already been discussed that ancient religions were always tied to certain peoples or cultural groups: the Romans had Jupiter's pantheon, the Greeks had Zeus' pantheon and so on. For every ancient polytheistic religion, there are no historical examples of religions spreading to another culture and becoming its dominant religion. So if we'd want to represent them correctly, we would have to code them to be restricted to their respective civs. That's silly if you consider the gameplay reasons for having a religion (see below).
Judaism behaves also like this, although it later spread to Rome. But it would be really weird if we represent small Jewish minorities in cities with its religion being there. Did a Jewish temple really increase the Roman's happiness?
Instead, there is something that played a much bigger role in antiquity: cultural groups and their extending influence. We have several examples for this. When Persia conquered Mesopotamia, its way of life and government spread there. Even more notable are of course the periods of Hellenisation (after Alexander's conquests Greek culture came to Asia Minor, the Levant and Egypt) and Romanisation. Naturally, this also meant a spreading of this culture's corresponding religions, but it was always the religion spreading with its culture, and never alone.
So I think we should start with the following "cultures":
Egyptian culture: Is founded when Egypt spawns.
Mesopotamian culture: Is founded when Babylonia/Assyria spawns.
Persian culture: Is founded when Persia spawns. Note that this also includes Zoroastrianism (which was the religion tied to Persian culture, it simply wasn't polytheistic).
Greek culture: Is founded when Athens spawns.
Roman culture: Is founded when Rome spawns (debatable how big the difference between Greek and Roman culture really is, but I think it would be fun to have a culturally divided Roman Empire like in reality).
Celtic culture / Germanic culture: Don't know if they are really necessary, although the spread of Germanic culture into the Roman Empire was very important in the Dark Ages.
Judaism: Founded when Israel spawns.
Of course, temples like in vanilla can still be built and give the normal +happiness bonus. They are now only tied to cultures, not to religions (e.g. Romans can build "Temple of Zeus", Egyptians can build "Temple of Ra" etc.).
Adopting a culture to be your "state culture" also gives the usual benefits.
The only difference is how culture spreads. When you found a city, it immediately gets your state culture. But conquered cities keep their culture and get an angry face for every present culture as long as your "state culture" isn't present as well. Each time you construct a building in this city, there is a chance that your "state culture" is spread to this city (the smaller the city, the higher the chance). This represents efforts of the conquerors to establish their way of life.
Okay, now Christianity comes into play. Christianity should be the only religion that behaves as in vanilla. It should spread by itself (and rather fast) and be able to construct missionaries. As long as you don't adopt it as your state religion, it causes huge happiness problems (maybe two angry faces in every city). If its your state religion, you get an angry face for every other culture present in your cities (now representing oppressed pagan faiths). So you have to decide and clean your cities from other cultures (via an "inquisitor" unit), which causes "We cannot forget your cruel oppression".
I think you get my idea. Even if you don't like it, please consider there should be a distinction between the ancient, culturally tied faiths and Christianity. They are not comparable at all and the arrival of Christianity should cause a lot of domestic problems, just as it did in reality.
Panopticon
Utilitarian
Leoreth, what you're proposing sounds similar to the Warring States Period scenario, in Warlords, I think. It's another scenario in which conventional religion would have been inappropriate, so they replaced it with "bloodlines" that confer influence.
Bonci
King
I agree with Leoreth...this system could be integrated with the one rhye is working at...
Omega124
Challenging Fate
That's a great Idea, Leoreth, however, I do have one problem.
Christianity shouldn't be able to destroy the "Juadisic" Culture for A couple of reasons:
1. Jesus was actually a Jew himself, so I can't see the religion based after him destroying his own religion.
2. If the Juadisic culture was destroyed like you said, then it would probably be a dead religion instead of having an entire country based off of it. (Compare to Zoroastrianism, which is a dead religion)
3. The holy cities would overlap.
Also due to that, maybe Juadistic culture won't cause
with Christianity is state religion?
Christianity shouldn't be able to destroy the "Juadisic" Culture for A couple of reasons:
1. Jesus was actually a Jew himself, so I can't see the religion based after him destroying his own religion.
2. If the Juadisic culture was destroyed like you said, then it would probably be a dead religion instead of having an entire country based off of it. (Compare to Zoroastrianism, which is a dead religion)
3. The holy cities would overlap.
Also due to that, maybe Juadistic culture won't cause
with Christianity is state religion?
Krzowwh
King
That's a great Idea, Leoreth, however, I do have one problem.
Christianity shouldn't be able to destroy the "Juadisic" Culture for A couple of reasons:
1. Jesus was actually a Jew himself, so I can't see the religion based after him destroying his own religion.
2. If the Juadisic culture was destroyed like you said, then it would probably be a dead religion instead of having an entire country based off of it. (Compare to Zoroastrianism, which is a dead religion)
3. The holy cities would overlap.
Also due to that, maybe Juadistic culture won't cause
Well, in theory, yes, most of what you said would be true. However, persecution of the Jewish population was very common with Christian states, even at the time. Also, Zoroastrianism is not even close to dead. And considering that this is not a supposed to diverge from the exact historical events, the fact that there is a 61-year-old country that is three-fourths Jewish is not too important. Judaism could have become a dead religion.
Now, with that in mind, I think that Zoroastrianism should be similar to how Christianity will be organized. Judaism should probably be a bit more like Christianity. Also, cultures should be harder to remove than religions.
Omega124
Challenging Fate
But that is extremely unlikely. The only difference between the two is that one believes Jesus is the Messiah, and one doesn't (To avoid a flame war, I know there are other differences, but that's the only main difference).
If two extremely similar religions exist, they usually Co-exist (Think Confucianism and Taoism. There weren't much fighting between the two, yet they were so closely placed together). Yes, The Crusades happened, I can not deny that, but it was more of a political War to expand the Church's power (It mostly weakened it, especially after The Templars were accused of Hearsay.)
Either way, this can be a very touchy topic, I don't want this to go out of control.
Your Idea is still godd either way.
Panopticon
Utilitarian
The important difference in gameplay terms is that Judaism only spread out of Palestine once the Jews were scattered in the Diaspora.
Krzowwh
King
I'm not saying that Judaism and Christianity aren't very close religions. I'm just saying that since they were so close, pointing out the differences created more tension, which caused unsettlement and persecution.
Now, something that could be implemented is the split of Christianity from Judaism. Perhaps the Bar Kokhba Revolt. Or would the time frame be too short?
By the way, Taoism and Confucianism, from what I know, are conflicting belief systems. There was certainly unsettlement and coexists today pretty much only in Chinese traditional Buddhism.
Arkaeyn
King
"Conflicting" is a very strong word to describe the major Chinese religions. They have, by-and-large, existed syncretically. People take portions of each of the three major religions as part of their religious structure.
It helps that at their highest level (where the great thinkers do their writings) the three have different focuses: Taoism is scientific and philosophical; Buddhism is metaphysical; and Confucianism is ethical and behavioral. Those are major, major, major generalizations, of course.
This is what happened when an actual "conflicting" religion showed up in China: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_rebellion
It helps that at their highest level (where the great thinkers do their writings) the three have different focuses: Taoism is scientific and philosophical; Buddhism is metaphysical; and Confucianism is ethical and behavioral. Those are major, major, major generalizations, of course.
This is what happened when an actual "conflicting" religion showed up in China: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_rebellion
