Replay #8 4 µ m8s <3

[troglodyt]

This was neither meant to be an insult nor was it my intent to discourage you. There aren't any negative connotations to "nerd" or "geek" in my mind, although dictionary definitions don't reflect that. It's just that your extensive use of emoticons, coded language and inside jokes is representative of a subculture that has actually embraced the originally offensive words "nerd" and "geek" as Wastintime has pointed out. There simply is a lot of Civilization talk going on here that would be a complete mystery to anyone who has never played the game.
So apologies for hurting your feelings but that wasn't my intent. It was more the opposite.

Regarding the Diplo: I was suspecting something like that. As you will most likely dominate the map early on you will probably have relatively free reign on that side. Any strategies you will point out are much appreciated anyway.

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, alive and awake again, time for the next part.

Now in the last part, you already got informed about some happenings, that aren't too usual for a game of CIV. Those mainly were:

• I had huge luck with finding Bronze Working in a hut, the most powerful thing that can happen so early in a round.
• I built Stonehenge (very early) , so I don't have to care about borderpops at all now.
• I had absolutely 0 luck with stealing some workers, which is something really important, because worker-stealing really changes the games. However, having peaceful neighbours also comes with advantages, and it's impossible to have luck all the time.
• I've misclicked, something I usually don't do (seriously) , but apart from that, all screens proof that I made decent moves until now, what's still missing, are the real game-breakers, but you'll read about them today.
• And, for the moment, I've decided on building the Mids, and want to skip on building the Oracle at all. My current plan, says, that the Mids are very powerful the larger the map, and that I'm too late to have decent chances at Oracle still, however, this will turn out totally wrong...

So read now, how this round developed into something I myself, regard as "impossible" , meaning it's so unlikely, that the chances for me to re-live this a 2nd time, are really small:



This is only a small step, from the last screenshot you saw. It tells you, that I've given up on Worker stealing for the moment. I was tired from pillaging that road over and over to lure 2 Workers on the same tile, and the capital in the meanwhile has grown to size 4, so it needs a city-garrison, to remain happy. Of course, I could have simply built another warrior, but I calculated that the risk when going to war with Lincoln for a single Worker, was not worth giving myself not even the chance to build the GW aswell, and that even with chances being really low, that I'd have great need for the extra Gold from it, because with having Stone and with being IND, conversion rates for Hammers to (Fail-) Gold are amazing.
For what to use that Gold, there are so many options... The most likely one would be to "Gold-Rush" some ChoKoNu's later, not meaning to buy them with Universal Suffrage, but to build Archers and upgrade those to ChoKoNu's.

The described way, is superior to running Universal Suffrage itself, because Hammers baseically cost the same, not mattering if paying for the difference of Hammers between two units when choosing the upgrade, or when paying for those Hammers directly when rush-buying those units themselves, 1 Hammers is about 3 Gold . However, with rush-upgrading the units, I'm able to whip out the initial units (Archers) , and by that convert Food into Hammers, so that's one point at which I already save Gold. On plus though, I'll be able to run Police State, and with Granaries, Forges and Police State, 1 Food is almost 3 Hammers , which already is really effective, but the possibility to pre-build Archers, also makes me not have to wait until getting Machinery, but will open up the possibility to have Cho Ko Nu's on the turn of getting Machinery!

So yes, the chinese atm. are building the GW because they actually want ChoKoNu's that once were Archers!

Now if you're no HoF player, there's one question in your mind:

Why am I not building the Mids directly? How can I justify delaying them even further, and why the fuq am I not building Settlers?

I give 2 things towards that:

• First: I assume this game to be either really good, or not worth playing. I'll simply gamble for getting the Mids really late, or I'll simply start the next game! This implies, that I still don't find this game extraordinary enough, to "play safe" . Getting BW, ok, nice, getting Stonehenge, also ok, really helpful, but in all honesty: This start sucks bad, not getting any Workers through theft is a big set-back, and AIs totally boxing me in, with little good land left to settle, but morely having really bad rates of research atm., are things with which I'm not happy. I also somehow knew, that with having to produce the Workers myself, that there'd be a great problem of generating enough Hammers to get a sufficient attack-force, and as I'm certain to get the Mids like said in the beginning, this is the logical way, generate Gold via the strenghts I have, to make up for the lack of Hammers that's caused by stupid Lincoln.
• And regarding the Settlers, we have to take a closer look at the game again, and there we find...:

The capital has a Granary already, so I built that one in between (I chopped it out, because the city is already slow on Growth due to not working the Floodplains yet, and chopping Granaries is superior to whipping them of course) .

Now regarding good spots to settle:



So you see, that there still are some (decent) spots to settle. This is, because it's a Huge map that was configured with minimum opponents, 2300 BC just isn't the time yet, where one get's completely crushed by AI. There's lots of land towards the south, and that land's got tons of Forrests, and you've maybe read my posts in other threads, but you for sure have read STW's post earlier: Forrests are the greatest source of Hammers in the whole game!

Really, honestly, those sites are aweful besides the fact, that there's Rice + Wheat while I already have Corn, so another really important thing, having the 3 grains, is assured on this map, and one of the greatest false beliefs of new players, is, that it's important to get as many cities as possible in the fewest time available, and also that large cities are generally more effective than small cities.

Both of that is not true! Small cities in good locations cost a lot less than big cities do, and with cheap IND Forges + Police State, and with even only having to produce Archers, they're even extremely strong, and the amounts of Forrests that you see on that screen, are nothing but insane! Every one of those Forrests, is 44 with Maths, so 66 Hammers with Maths + Forges + Police State, and 1 Archer on those settings is only about 30 Hammers , so 1 Forrest = 1 Archer or 3 Forrests = 2 Cho Ko Nu's!

Now just imagine how many troops I'll have, if I only found those 3 cities to the south, and chop all of the Forrests they got in their BFC! The things I have to make sure, is, that I can pay for those units and those cities, but for that, I have a Capital that's gonna work the Gold + the Floodplains, which is not much, but it'll be enough. Being good in Conquest, means being able to create a large attacking force in little time, and Forrests are just that source.

------------------

This should have made some things clear, and why I made the decisions I made.

• The capital needs to grow, and it has to stay intact, as it's my only real source of Commerce. Therefor: Granary
• Hammers are no problem to come by, if I'm able to create enough Workers to chop those incredible amounts of Forrests that are offered to me.
• With having Stone, producing Failgold is the best way to get Cho-Ko-Nu's on the turn they become available, and it's very effective.
• Workers are the most important thing atm., but leaving the capital intact has higher priority, therefor, the 2nd city has to take over that part. Settlers are important too, but my plan is to not get many ineffecient cities, but only very few one's, that'll help me with my goals via the ways I've written about.
• Getting the Mids late is a gamble, but as I play with assuming "either great, or next" , delaying them comes with advantages.

------------------

Here is the additional information I have to give:

• The GW is a Wonder, that usually goes at around 2400 BC on this difficulty, so even having the possibility to build it for Failgold at from 2300 BC onwards, already is something really really are.
• The chances that one of my neighbours would found the last of the possible early religions, were 1 to 5, maybe even lower, because Judaism usually gets founded by the Civ that also founds Hinduism, as it's usually that Civ, that has decided to go for that route, and is the fastest on it.
• Starting just in the sweet spot of a map, so that spot where the Jungle and the tundra are away far, and where there are those incredible amounts of Forrests that you see, is also really rare.

But this is not gonna be the last.

2175 BC, Roosevelt completes the GW:



I could have scored that Wonder too, and I even thought about it, but I didn't feel the need to rush on that Wonder, because not getting it has more benefits to my war-plans, than getting it. I would have taken it for the Great Spy points, but sheer Gold with ways to spend it, is something having value.

Time passes, and nothing special happens. I chop out 2 Workers while continuing growing on the Mids. It's 1800 BC, when the first Civ (Pacal / Mayans) reaches Alpha, which is really late and a sign, that this map is even slower than I could hope for, and noone has built the Oracle yet!



Lizzy's the only one I can see the research of, and she has decided to go for Priesthood and it's here, where I decide, that now the time has come, to take my chances: Here is what I plan:

• I'm gonna continuesly grow the capital on the Mids. I'm not gonna rush them by chops, I'm:
• Going to let those chops go into where they're most needed for (still additional Workers and much more important, additional Settlers!) , and I'm also gonna pre-chop some Forrests, because:
• I'm gonna complete the Research of Metalcasting, then use the pre-chopped Forrests to build Oracle and get myself Machinery from it, and I'll:
• Trade Metalcasting for every other tech on the Market, claim some Iron, then conquer Lizzy, and use the Prophet that's generating atm. , to build a Shrine in that holy city, and by that have the earliest Shrine I got in all my rounds myself :> .

------------------

So to repeat this, I'm going to expand peacefully, and I'm going to get a superior production by getting the Mids and I'm going to get the hugest tech-advantage that's possible by Oracling Machinery while getting all other techs through trading Metalcasting! XD

------------------

This already sounds incredible, and it is. In every normal game, Oracle would have been gone for a long time already, and noone would even think of Oracling Machinery from a low Commerce start like this one, me included. Chances for getting the Mids after having them delayed for building the GW already, and that without any chopping, because of deciding that those chops have to go into something of even greater importance (Settlers, Oracle) while not sacrificing on the citie's infrastructure, is unbelievable.

It's clear, who the 1st target will be, because that obviously has to be Lizzy. She went the Monotheism route, which makes her weak, and she has a holy city, to which I'm just getting a Prophet that I'm only getting, because of a Wonder I built because I found the tech to it in a hut .
However, I plan to bring that war to her, once having Cho-Ko-Nu's, and there is only one thing more, I have to assure, before this could get the most incredible round I ever played, and that is...



No, that's me getting Fishing for Mysticism in 1750 BC from Washington...



No, that's me getting the Mids (that were built without chopping!) in 1575 BC...



No, that's me getting Metalcasting (already incredibly late) at 1500 BC, but when we're already at it...



"You are not sure if it's a good trade that you're getting 1 tech for your 3 Frederick? Come on, everybody in the world can write, except the chinese, but we're the only one's who can give you Bling, Freddie, your women want Bling, I tell you, you want to have many women Freddie, you want that Bling!"



"Right, but where now is that Iron that Freddie talked about..."



LOL

The only source of Iron available, lies next to the holy city of Judaism, which is owned by Lizzy!"

LOL

Now this was the stupidest thing that could happen. How are the chinese going to be able to build those ueber-awesome Cho-Ko-Nu's now, when they got no Iron?

If you now think, that this could set me back though, you're absolutely wrong! There were plans for conquering Lizzys empire even before, now all that has chanced, is, it has to happen now, and the options are:

A Chariot Rush LOL .

Just note, that this is in 1500 BC already, so this is no Rush at all, butt the funniest thing of all actually is: The chinese don't have a single Chariot yet! LOL

Now as we have pre-chopped Forrests already, and as we're going to get Alpha through this trade:



Let's see which techs Lizzy's got:



No Ironworking, which gives hope, because Swords can be quite rough. She does have BW though, so she could chop out the Oracle really fast... But her city is neither on a hill, and she's still expanding so chances are good that there are only few defenders in it, and it must not necessarily mean that there's a spear defending it, and thanks to my rules, I've connected the Horses already, because connecting resources, even if I don't need them, has a high priority towards me, as especially in ancient and classic times, getting Happiness resources (through trade) is very important. Now...



I'm first gonna (2pop-) whip that Forge, because the Overflow will give me the 1st chariot if I switch to...



Police Sate, as it gives me 25% bonus on military-unit-production. Now I'm gonna...



... right, use those chops to complete a Settler... I said that I would neither sacrifice infrastructure nor normal expansion...

In the meanwhile, I could get a look at Lizzys city, and she has...



Exactly 1 Archer that is defending it LOL

If this is no invitation, then I also don't know...

Now it's 1400 BC, and I'm finally beginning on "really" "rushing" LOL



1 Chariot in this turn, and exactly so much overflow into it, that the next one will complete on the next turn. (Learn if you don't know already, there can be only so much overflow from something like the cost of that something is, so with the Chariot costing 30 , 30 can overflow.)



With 1 Chariot / turn, I get to 5 Chariots, the number I regard as critical for this "Rush" , in 1275 BC:



With having unlocked Priesthood, I can now also see, which response Lizzy gives when hovering over the tech. "We don't want to trade..." means she is just simply not willing to trade that tech yet, while "We have our reasons" would mean that she has started on Oracle already:



Past ridiculous! Not only, does Lizzy not have started on Oracle even, no other Civs even could construct it, and she (as others) doesn't even have Alpha yet O_o .

Time to tell Lizzy that we love her (city) , and to move in the Chariots to find... :





A single Axeman? Now come one, the sole Archer was already funny, but an Axeman? The unit Chariots are the counter-unit to? And then only one? LMAO



Screenshot giving away another really good trick, helping war.

------------------

And so it begins. The chinese construct the Oracle and get themselves Machinery from it:



And with having the Mids, 4 cities and Iron now, this means that they are now unstoppable.

------------------

Seraiel

 

[Seraiel]

Plz excuse me, if the part before the last part was a bit tiring, I actually wrote about 5h on that post and simply couldn't keep the quality through all parts. I'm probably not gonna work it over, because 5h already seem like really much too me, and there's still so much to come, and I also want to play myself a bit every day .

 

[lymond]

I actually wrote about 5h on that post

What are you? German?

 

[Seraiel]

Yes, I'm an owl, if that question refers to the time at which I wrote that post.

 

[georgjorge]

That chariot "rush" is really amazing. If I had planned a Cho-Ko-Nu rush and wouldn't have found Iron, I probably would just have played another map if going for HOF, but it really shows how much can be achieved by keeping informed about what is going on with the other civs (scouting, espionage, checking trade screen extensively etc.). Good learning experience.

I'm not sure I follow your reasons for not settling more cities early. I can see the benefit of growing the capital, but I don't get the second city building a granary before a settler, for instance. You yourself argued that every additional forest you get around a city is a lot of hammers...

Finally, was not trading for fishing and settling another city (Rice or Corn) an option here? It would have allowed to bulb Engineering and continue your conquest with Trebs, though with a good tech rate you're probably getting there sooner with regular research anyway...

Can't wait for the next part!

 

[Kaitzilla]

Risky going for Mids instead of expanding.

The AI nearly had you boxed in and cut off from iron.


1100BC Oracle was quite fortunate! You must have sweated.


Will De Gaulle attack you? Deities can send enormous pain.
If you can find out what direction he is located, can station a scout outside your borders to watch for incoming stacks of doom.
I see Brennus is now plotting war too.

Get Lincoln to Pleased quickly! He has 9 cities! And you are a valid land target for him since he shares so much border with you.
Maybe settle a city north of him in the tundra and gift it to him if you don't want to trade Metal Casting.
Switching to Judaism is kind of risky with all the different religions out there. Probably not a good idea.


As always, a huge grin when 5 chariots approach an iron city with a religious capital and it's defended by 1 axe

 

[Kaitzilla]

That chariot "rush" is really amazing. If I had planned a Cho-Ko-Nu rush and wouldn't have found Iron, I probably would just have played another map if going for HOF, but it really shows how much can be achieved by keeping informed about what is going on with the other civs (scouting, espionage, checking trade screen extensively etc.). Good learning experience.

I'm not sure I follow your reasons for not settling more cities early. I can see the benefit of growing the capital, but I don't get the second city building a granary before a settler, for instance. You yourself argued that every additional forest you get around a city is a lot of hammers...

Finally, was not trading for fishing and settling another city (Rice or Corn) an option here? It would have allowed to bulb Engineering and continue your conquest with Trebs, though with a good tech rate you're probably getting there sooner with regular research anyway...

Can't wait for the next part!

Oh ya, skipping fishing to try and bulb Engineering is pretty popular.

But are trebuchets really that much better than Cho-ku-nu's?


Seraiel is gonna have a pretty darned good push with special crossbows until Longbows show up

 

[Seraiel]

That chariot "rush" is really amazing. If I had planned a Cho-Ko-Nu rush and wouldn't have found Iron, I probably would just have played another map if going for HOF, but it really shows how much can be achieved by keeping informed about what is going on with the other civs (scouting, espionage, checking trade screen extensively etc.). Good learning experience.

The question being here, is "does one have the resources to get that information" . There's one good rule I inherit, and that's "units can move, they should move, they're not made for standing around, use them" . There are other parts of me, like "there's always a way" and even wird ones, like "I'm ment to achieve this, how the fuq am I supposed to do so, where is this fcking sign that I'm not seeing or wtf does it mean if I already know" .

I believe in good coming from good, and just that turn, it showed that I noticed a worker being close to the city and being able to catch a look at it with only wasting 2 turns, so I thought "yes, this is it, I chose chopping that forrest there to get confidence for what I'm trying" so I knew that there'd be only very few and probably the right units in that city, I knew that I would make it, because I worked hard for it.

This may sound really weird, and as I'm part scientist, I know that the real explanation for something like that is morely chance, but there's a layer past science, and I get very good results from trusting in the things happening around me. I also deny them sometimes, but the real question was the real answers are in the 1st paragraph. Giving up, is a result of either very bad luck, or lack of trust, while being successful with one's goals, comes from believing in the whole, knowing about onesself, or just seeing.

Hard to say such things, but I thought it could be interesting, as it reflects what you're saying from my personal experience, so I'm sure that something will come as a reaction.

I'm not sure I follow your reasons for not settling more cities early. I can see the benefit of growing the capital, but I don't get the second city building a granary before a settler, for instance. You yourself argued that every additional forest you get around a city is a lot of hammers...

Good Point. It's hard to give an answer to that directly. All I can tell is the way that that city went, and that was, that it grew on a Granary, then produced a Worker at size 2, it then needed a Warrior as a city-Garrison, and with the Granary then being half complete already I let a chop go into it, as the Food-bar was near half full, so I thought "yes, this is just the time that was forseen for me to build that Granary" .

I know, it's hard to follow those with SPI trait, and it's hard for me to argument against that decision from a past perspective, because I don't question it .

From what I know, Granaries are just the building doulbing the production, because 1 Hammer = 2 Hammers with a Granary, but it's only 1 Hammer = 1 Hammer without one (no correct math, it's actually relying on the citie's size, but I'm neither Kossin nor coanda ) .

I just thought "wow, those other city sites look really uggly" , because everything below at least wet corn (or dry rice, so 5 yields) is no source I regard worth pushing for. I also have really really good experiences with few but very good cities, as fewer cities mean less maintenance, and I don't think about Granaries or IND-Forges, those 2 are just the buildings for me, theyre "the truth", they're "the ownage" or "the best there is" . You'd make me very sad if you proved, that Civ would be totally counter-intuitive there, because "good players go a lot by instinct" were the words of a friend of mine, and my instinct doesn't argue with those buildings, but in all honesty, it does also not argue with building a Settler at size 3, so I don't know...

This'd be a really good point Tachywaxon, kovacsflo or Kaitzilla to jump in, as I'm sure they can tell such things from experience...

Finally, was not trading for fishing and settling another city (Rice or Corn) an option here? It would have allowed to bulb Engineering and continue your conquest with Trebs, though with a good tech rate you're probably getting there sooner with regular research anyway...

Can't wait for the next part!

This is something really good for you:

Trebs = unnecessary units if knowing about Accuracy (and especially with playing China) .

Accuracy gives +8% to bombardement, however, iirc, those 8% don't get cut in half by Walls or Castles, so Accuracy is really powerful, so it's the spec to go for. The difference between a Catapult bombarding something, or a Treb bombarding something is almost negliable, and the difference between a Treb doing collateral and a Cho-Ko-Nu doing the same, are that the Cho-Ko-Nu has 2 less base-STR , but he has 2 Firststrikes + i. e. 25% against a Longbow through Cover, and as the Cho-Ku is even cheaper than the Treb, attacking units with Trebs is only the right choice in the situation, where one has to many Siege, and too few units to actually kill, but that'd already be a fault in playstyle.

I know about that bulb-path with the GSs, however, that one's not suited for HoF play, because in HoF, one usually gets Oracle at least, so getting a GS already often fails, and getting even 2 or 3 (first GS has to go into an Academy, learn that, is has to go there, like in at least, 50% of the cases ) is very unlikely, and also takes quite a lot of time.

At very last: Bulbing / Teching Engineering is not worth it. In most of my games, AI techs Engineering even before I'd have the resources for it, and bulbing it, there are so much other things that are nice to bulb, like Education, or Liberalism, or... well, that's about it for non-Sushi-games :> .

TY for your feedback, I hope that at least the answer concerning Accuracy was worth giving it .

S.

 

[Seraiel]

Risky going for Mids instead of expanding.

The AI nearly had you boxed in and cut off from iron.

"To risk is what to gain"

No comment on almost having been cut of from Iron and being boxed in. Being boxed in is something happening to I guess everybody here playing Deity. I already won by Domination by going from 3 cities with one having no Food

I'm a master of war ROOOOOOOOOAAAAARRRR

1100BC Oracle was quite fortunate! You must have sweated.

How good you know that situation ^^ .

Here, for you, because it's really funny.

I told about taking savegames of every thought I have in a game to be able to report about it, I think I don't have to translate this one ^^ :

Will De Gaulle attack you? Deities can send enormous pain.
If you can find out what direction he is located, can station a scout outside your borders to watch for incoming stacks of doom.
I see Brennus is now plotting war too.

De Gaulle has no chance of reaching me, but I didn't knew that when he showed up and demanded and went WHEOOHRN, so it's there, where I sweated

That's btw. one of the things I find most funny, AI going WHEOOHRN and even DoWing without being able to reach onesself (or only reach one with a single roaming Archer that's still there because it got boxed in between the evil, aeh, good AIs not opening Borders :> ) .

Get Lincoln to Pleased quickly! He has 9 cities! And you are a valid land target for him since he shares so much border with you.
Maybe settle a city north of him in the tundra and gift it to him if you don't want to trade Metal Casting.
Switching to Judaism is kind of risky with all the different religions out there. Probably not a good idea.

You're sleeping Kai ^^ .

Lincoln is already on the list as the next target past Lizzy. I don't have to make friends with him, because he's basically already dead ^^ .

Lincoln btw. is a jew, but lately, I don't care that much anymore about which religion I go, because the bonuses outweight the risks imo, and Lincoln is really really peaceful. I've never seen him attack successfully, i used him for leveling my troops to unlock the HE in the 2nd last Gauntlet, because he's such a weakling ^^ .

As always, a huge grin when 5 cities approach an iron city with a religious capital and it's defended by 1 axe

<3

Don't forget, it's a holy city to which I have the Prophet. "She (Lizzy) and I were ment to be, a cheap AI for me to play" .(original quote "cheap fck for me to lay" by the band Korn) .

No, honestly, I find that Chariot-rush hillarious. I remember having attacked (and failed) with 15 Chariots at 2000 BC, but not with 5 Chariots 1000y later :> . I'm glad you can laugh about that too :> .

 

[Seraiel]

I've just tried to play a non-Fishing Engineering rush. People knowing how that works, will find this funny, CIV players in general can understand from the context.

Nice start, sipped.

Told myself: Must not go Fishing, must not unlock Philosphy.

Rexed to 5 cities, bribed everyone against each other.

Oracled Metalcasting, researched Machinery and created a GS.

Made sure that GS could really bulb Engineering, but then thought: Wait, if I have engineering, I'll maybe lose my underdog bonus and Civs won't be willing to trade with me anymore.

And so I traded for CoL.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Lol @ Lizzy the 20 UnitProb's "holy city defence".

AI's never researching Rifling isn't that surprising, though, considering their aversion of Replaceable Parts.

 

[Seraiel]

Lol @ Lizzy the 20 UnitProb's "holy city defence".

AI's never researching Rifling isn't that surprising, though, considering their aversion of Replaceable Parts.

I havn't noticed AI not researching Replaceable Parts up until now. In that game, 2 AIs researched it, but I stopped both before they could reach Rifling, as I knew that an AI getting Rifling create the need for me, to have a lot larger numbers (or it'd create the need for me to even tech further) . So it was more, that that game really was won before I getting anything beyond Muskets (one AI got Cuirrs, but had no Horses) , so that my strategy to slow down the tech-tempo really worked.

 

[georgjorge]

@Seraiel: From what I understand, it seems as though you're not only relying on long-term planning but also act spontaneously on your intuition (like you did with the worker steal in this game)? Would be good to hear that even some of the best players don't have everything planned out well in advance. I'm not sure though if working for the win/record hard and believing in it is always enough to actually give it to you, so many things can go wrong on this level (from bad luck to atrocious maps) even if you did everything perfectly.

Regarding Trebs, well if Accuracy bombarding doesn't get cut in half by walls then I guess they aren't needed with Cho-Ko-Nus. I like Trebs a lot (would rate them as the third-best non-UU unit) but China is something different altogether.

 

[Seraiel]

@Seraiel: From what I understand, it seems as though you're not only relying on long-term planning but also act spontaneously on your intuition (like you did with the worker steal in this game)? Would be good to hear that even some of the best players don't have everything planned out well in advance. I'm not sure though if working for the win/record hard and believing in it is always enough to actually give it to you, so many things can go wrong on this level (from bad luck to atrocious maps) even if you did everything perfectly.

Regarding Trebs, well if Accuracy bombarding doesn't get cut in half by walls then I guess they aren't needed with Cho-Ko-Nus. I like Trebs a lot (would rate them as the third-best non-UU unit) but China is something different altogether.

@ georgjorge:

To be really good, you often have to realy on your intuition. Making plans is something generally really helpful, but it's sticking to fixed concepts and not being able to adjust or even throw over plans completely, that makes someone a bad player. In CIV, there are many factors that are impossible to calculate in before, and you'd be amazed if could look into my mind, and see how much I'm suffering from such things sometimes. Having to make a blind call, deciding without knowing about it's success, flipping coins a.s.o.
It'd probably be really interesting to read the current thread of Team Kakumeika on SGOTM 18 (currently running SGOTM) , we had no real plan at all. We were sure about one thing, that "max research" would be something positive for that game, so that we should focus in that, but apart from that, we discussed some decisions over and over and that even with getting no result assuring that this'd be the best decision at all. There's one point in the thread, where I mathematically come towards a decision being logically the best and wanted to follow it, the team reverted that and said I should move in the opposite direction with the warrior :> .
The best I know so far, and what I tell you, is that working with short term goals and long term goals is a really good way of getting good results, so to say something like "next I'm gonna kill De Gaulle, and I also to not completely destroy my commerce, so I'll try to focus both and build units while improving the land with cottages" . It's the experience, that lets you choose the right goals at the right time, making good plans comes from playing more than one game with the same or similar conditions, and there are always (lots) of situations, where knowing about the success of a decision is impossible, and it's there where one simply has to let go, and either try to trust, or control everything regularly.

And there's one saying in Buddhism: "If your goal is true, you will succeed" , and I don't know what I truely had in mind when starting to play that game, but my intention was to "play as good as I can and to not win by sheer luck (because that'd make me feel but about it, because it'd mean I suck) , but to get a fair result for myself being fair, that I want to get rewarded for being better than myself (i. e. refraining me from being impatient) and that I want to either be shown that I have a right to trust, or that I could stick to my assumption that everything doesn't matter and is without value", which in both cases would have been something positive as it'd have given me directions, and this is what happened. I missed the GW because I didn't really want it, I could not get attacked by De Gaulle, because this game was ment for me and I'd have had no chance of defending at that point in time, that city of Lizzy was defended badly, because I needed that Iron, at least that's what I believe.

Of course, I know that there are perfectly ok explanations for all of these things, and I know and believe them too, there would have to be an AI demanding from me, because the chance for none AI demanding up to that time is about zero, me not getting the GW was simply result of the GW getting built between 2400 BC and 2000 BC on Deity in 9x%+, and Lizzy getting Monotheism was just caused by her being FIN with Mansa not being in the game.

<3

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Regarding Trebs:

Of course, me writing something like "Trebs are 100% superflous always" is something wrong, but think about Trebs again truely. A Treb is a weak unit on the field, it costs a lot more than a Catapult if only bombarding cities, and catapults are even better on the field than trebs, even when it comes hard on hard, catapult vs city against treb vs city, the differences really aren't that big. There's a reason why people say they "suicide" their Siege, because that's exactly what happens to Siege, and the difference between a Catapult that gets destroyed and a Treb that gets destroyed is nothing in Collateral. There's exactly one reason why I build Trebs in the rounds I play, and that is, because CR2 (better CR3) Trebs have chances to sometimes survive, but even that doesn't play larger roles for me anymore, because I more and more only bombard cities, or I just suicide 2-3 siege even with cultural defense not being reduced competely already to scratch the defenders to cut on losses, because in hammer-efficiency, even attacking with non 99% odds with normal units is better because it also means getting more GG-Points and higher-promoted units, and again, replacing units often is cheaper than replacing Trebs, because Trebs are very costly.

Zx Zero Zx would agree with you on the Treb being below the top3 non-UU's, however, I can not. Trebs bring no big advantage over catapults in the most important disciplines, they come late with not self-teching Engineering (and libbing something like Rifling appears superior to me than having Trebs) , they are costly, they're weak on the field and the chances for them to survive are too low still. The reasons to still build them, are that it's not always possible to get a spy into position always, that generating the spy-points (and the spy) needed for revolts are even more costly, and that CR can give them just the edge.

Top3 UU's for me would be something like War Elephant, Catapult, any form of drafted unit and then followed by Cavalry most likely.

S.

 

[Seraiel]

Hmm, very few replies to the last update and the last post, I hope I didn't kill anyone with that WoT (Wall of Text) ...

 

[Killroyan]

I am still digesting it Great job on the wonders and the techs.

 

[RagingHordes]

Well, I am impressed.
Still, you expect replies faster than it takes me to read all that
Plus, I am trying to find something intelligent to say.
If you think that's going to be a short work, pff!
I'm sweating here!
(actually, I let my beer do the sweating)
I realized you might not be familiar with beer sweating, Seraiel.
So please appreciate this educational link and video.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Why would anyone want to slow down the AI tech speed?

Slowing down the AI's techology rate is one way of staying ahead of the AI technologically at Deity level. The other is shrewd techology trading. One doesn't really need to feed the AIs technolgies at Deity level. They usually do quite well on their own and the player's self-interest tech trades (as opposed to feeding them technologies).

Irregardless, one of the effects of Aggressive AI is a slight decease in AI technology rate. One takes advantage of this whether or not one realizes it or not. I'm surprised that you have not acknowledged this.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I disagree with the assessment of Trebuchets being not worthwhile. While Trebuchets are only good attacking cities, they have very good odds of surviving with CR2 versus flat cities and with CR3 versus hill cities.

I would not underestimate the engineering rush via GS bulbing both Machinery and Engineering.

For Cho-Ko-Nu rush, I agree that Engineering is not needed, but GS bulbing Machinery is certainly viable.

Sun Tzu Wu