Resolved: The Ballista Elephant Is the Crappiest UU in the Game

[petey]

One thing that pissed me off about the Ballista Elephants is when I was attacking Khmer and had my GG med chariot in with a stack of Macemen and Longbowmen and the BE came out and killed him while ignoring all my defenders. That pissed me off (mostly for forgetting about Khmer's UU).

If the AI used things like the GG chariots, then the BE would be useful, but otherwise it's not much of a UU. If they made it so you didn't need the Ivory, it would be good, but the way it is sucks for human player use.

 

[Quagga]

This is the wackiest thing about these elephants, they go for the mounted units. You can substantially neutralize their attacks by stacking with your strong units a bunch of junk chariots or other obsolete mounted units. Unfortunately, they will kill off your healers if you are in the habit of putting chariots in that role.

 

[madscientist]

As far as targeting the healer chariots, you shoudl know well in advance if the Khmer guy is in the game (he's agressive and will declare war on you eventually). At that point you should be attaching the GG to a melee unit anticpating the threat.

 

[Terrance888]

Me, I'd still vote for the Panzer. Very late, with a bonus that you're not likely to use very often. I'd take a move of three in a heartbeat instead . .

Mmmm.... Think... you can take down a Mordern Armour...(28*1.5=42 vs 40)

 

[Terrance888]

Roxlimn:

I was hoping for a primary source. You can't fault me for wanting to find good information. For my part, I made no indication that I considered Reader's Digest a primary or even a secondary source.

Nobody from the 12th century are still alive stupid! so REader's is actualy a second (or as i call it, third)

 

[Terrance888]

8 pages later we've gotten far afield from the main topic.

I almost always get hosed on my UU resources, I've played Kmer a few times and almost always acquire ivory after the usefullness of the Elephant has peaked. In the many times I've played against them the Balista Elephant was basically on non factor.

My vote for crappiest UU - the Qeucha (i think i mispelled) I know there is such a thing as the Qeucha rush but I've never managed it.

Well, they have auto CI in BTS and they cost only 15 p and no resorces and you go straight to war. even with a 2.1% to kill archers each, the combined effort is more than the sum of the pieces. Yes.... 45production to kill an archer is better than 60(Average of 1.5 swords) to kill one.

 

[BYC]

My vote for crappiest UU - the Qeucha (i think i mispelled) I know there is such a thing as the Qeucha rush but I've never managed it.

It's really really strong, and there's definitely threads about it. Just look, and remember to basically spam quechas after you get your first worker and settler. Barracks only if you have lots of forests to chop.

 

[vicawoo]

It's really really strong, and there's definitely threads about it. Just look, and remember to basically spam quechas after you get your first worker and settler. Barracks only if you have lots of forests to chop.

By get your first worker, do you mean declare war? 1 worker=4 quechuas. By the way, normal warriors have trouble achieving 3000 BC deity wins.

Back to the real post: Keshiks. I think somebody was arguing you could go flanking 2 instead of relying on the keshik first strike. Versus archers, I'd probably go with combat 3 keshiks (not sure how you're getting them). Versus spearmen, the first strike does actually help. There was a big discussion about this, concerning war chariots vs spearmen. The job of the first keshik/chariot is to weaken the defender to the point where the second can mop up. The first strike makes it much more likely that you will do significant damage to the spearmen, while the base flanking of a horse archer is much higher than the 10% of a chariot.
Of course, against a fortified spearmen, a C2 shock keshik is 7.2 vs 8, so with first strike, you might be about even. In open field it's 7.2 vs 7.

 

[ICNP]

Maybe if they could at least do it inside cities it would be more useful.

 

[Chairo Hisui]

Has anyone thought of simply modding the Elephant? Or is that not possible?

 

[kniteowl]

I've modded the UU, I basically made it resourceless, 6 str and 100% vs mounted unitsand it keeps it Unique bonus where it targets mounted units on the offensive. It's basically an early Pike that comes with construction and Horseback Riding but it obvious can't counter other War Elephants.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I've modded the UU, I basically made it resourceless, 6 str and 100% vs mounted unitsand it keeps it Unique bonus where it targets mounted units on the offensive. It's basically an early Pike that comes with construction and Horseback Riding but it obvious can't counter other War Elephants.

It gets owned by spears then, and I'd rather have a normal elephant in that case .

Why not just make it resource-less, or give it a less demanding requirement?

 

[vicawoo]

Since flank attacks seem to demolish seige so well, the tactical change of being able to protect your seige (I think keeping a stack of elephants and axes in front of the seige stack should work) is a big benefit.

 

[CivCorpse]

Since flank attacks seem to demolish seige so well, the tactical change of being able to protect your seige (I think keeping a stack of elephants and axes in front of the seige stack should work) is a big benefit.

IIRC ballista phants only get their special ability when attacking

 

[Roxlimn]

Elephants typically get selected to the top for defense because they typically perform the best against mounted units. Just supposing, here.

 

[Diamondeye]

What a thread necro... Anyways, I think one of the problems about balancing this UU is that is built over a unit that
1) already is very good (uncounterable pre-pikes),
2) Requires a rare resource.

Gameplaywise, it would make sense to make it resourceless, but it would be rather overpowered (always having access to ellies is a huge buff), and would be a nono when talking realism.

Making it weaker would just make it lousier by ruining a good unit, the normal elephant unit.

Overall, I think it is an OK UU. When comparing synergies with the Khmer traits and UB, it is actually a rather nice one (UB gives and req Construction, Exp gives = Construction is a priority and so is resources such as Ivory. Furthermore, Creative halves the cost of Colosseums, making construction even more attractive as well as adding some . The Khmer are not to me underestimated. Combine that with a hated AI personality, and you have a rather nice civ).

 

[zebomba2]

Ah, a necro. While not the worst UU, it is certainly one of the least useful, even though as already pointed out, shopping for ivory is easy. Carracks, Jaguars, Panzers, Cossacks and Gallics, among others, are strong contenders for that tier too.
If we think on the usefulness of UUs, then the Fast Worker is the most useful, since it's always benefitial, and from the very beginning to the last turn.

 

[troytheface]

an amphibeous promoted ballista war elephant would not really be that good because there are seldom horse in city defense stacks.

 

[kniteowl]

It gets owned by spears then, and I'd rather have a normal elephant in that case .

Why not just make it resource-less, or give it a less demanding requirement?

lol I don't see the problem, all units should have some kind of weakness... well maybe except the Prat. Besides the only tiem I could see it having problems with spears is when you don't have any other unit in your stack to counter spears on the defensive or whne you're attacking a stack that doesn't have any Mounted units.

Can you imagine how overpowered a resourceless 8 str UU would be that early in the game?

 

[Roxlimn]

Yes. I actually modded that because I was halfway convinced that the Ballista Elephant needed upgrading. Big mistake. I didn't realize how strong resourceless was until I made that mod. That actually gave me new insight into the Jaguar at that time (early last year?).

Ballista Elephants are A-OK in my book. Keshiks are now, too, what with the -10% city attack gone. In fact, I think pretty much all the UUs are okay now, IMO.