Rethinking Crime

[Toffer90]

I've observed every change Joe made to crime in detail every time he made a commit, and I haven't had reason to object much to the changes he made; seems to mostly have been steps in the right direction, nerfing unreasonable stats and adding percentage modifiers and rising the crime limits for when certain crimes come into play.

When I have time to look a bit deeper on crime I might make some suggestions, but for now I'm content with Joe in charge of crime.

 

[JosEPh_II]

See SVN 9314 for latest changes to all the Old stuff. No changes to any New stuff. Not mine to mess with, the maker will have to do that.

JosEPh

 

[Faustmouse]

I was just going to post how much i like the new adjusted crime thresholds and that they provide a nice challange and now they got reverted

 

[JosEPh_II]

I was just going to post how much i like the new adjusted crime thresholds and that they provide a nice challange and now they got reverted

What "new" crime thresholds? The ones I reverted back to Hydro's original levels were just the Individual Crimes entrance level that was been this way since a year ago September. T-brd wanted the 0-1000 range I shortened it to changed back to the 0-2000 that Hydro had it at.

I just did as I was asked too. Sorry.

JosEPh

 

[GiuseppeIII]

I just did as I was asked too. Sorry.

JosEPh

What happened here???

 

[JosEPh_II]

What happened here???

See the SVN Changelog Thread for the latest SVN change to Crimes.

JosEPh

 

[Faustmouse]

I meant those that you lowered to a 0-1000 range.
I understand that some crimes need a higher threshold though, but I thought it would be ok to give the most dangerous crimes a higher treshold and leave the rest as it is.

Now that I start researching Trade I can see why people wanted a higher treshold mostly. Blackmarkets really are a hard hit

 

[JosEPh_II]

All brought to you by the mad genius of Hydro.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

Tourism

Tourism's mechanics are the same as Education; each turn it's modified the following way:

1. Reduce the total by 4%. This applies to positive or negative tourism, so it'll trend towards 0.
2. Decrease by the city's population, so a size 10 city will lose 10 tourism per turn (in addition to the decay).
3. Add the tourism provided by the buildings in the city

The same trick to calculate limit education also applies to tourism (25 times the difference between tourism provided and city pop).

Tourism has the following effects (only the cumulative effect is displayed here, not the individual effect of each Tourism level):

Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4 Column 5 Column 6 Column 7 Column 8 Column 9
Tourism Last Tourism level % % Crime Disease Air pollution Water pollution
10 to 24 Tourism (Level 1) 10 10 1 10 5 5 5
25 to 49 Tourism (Level 2) 20 20 2 20 10 10 10
50 to 99 Tourism (Level 3) 30 30 3 30 15 15 15
100 to 249 Tourism (Level 4) 40 40 4 40 20 20 20
250 to 499 Tourism (Level 5) 50 50 5 50 25 25 25
500 to 999 Tourism (Level 6) 60 60 6 60 30 30 30
1000 to 2499 Tourism (Level 7) 70 70 7 70 35 35 35
2500 to 4999 Tourism (Level 8) 80 80 8 80 40 40 40
5000 to 9999 Tourism (Level 9) 90 90 9 90 45 45 45
>= 10000 Tourism (Level 10) 110 110 10 100 50 50 50


There's no penalty to having negative tourism (apart from needing more to reach a positive value later on).

From this Table RWN compiled you will notice that Crime is introduced at Twice the rate of all other Malus. With the Current Crime system this is too strong. It should match the progression rate of the other 3 malus that use the Property system.

EDIT: so much for the new Forum system to let you organize a copy/paste.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

Crime

Crime works the same way as Disease with regards to decay and diffusion, with the only exception that the population effect is higher.

As pop effect and sources of crime are usually higher than for the other properties (typically five times), expect your Crime rate to reach much higher (or lower) values.

When Crime reaches a certain level in your city, new "Crime" buildings will appear - Murder, Pickpocket, etc. Most of those buildings are unlocked at specific techs (not just by Crime level) so you may find yourself with a big hit on your economy after researching a tech due to a range of Crime building suddenly appearing.

There are many, many crime building with various prerequisites, maluses and even bonuses; the list below just gives the main effects for all crimes (sorted chronologically by unlock tech) to keep things readable.


See this link for Table: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ollution-disease-flammability-tourism.548239/

Crime

Crime works the same way as Disease with regards to decay and diffusion, with the only exception that the population effect is higher (Nightmare/Prince generate 4 crime per pop, Nightmare/Emperor 5 per pop)

As pop effect and sources of crime are usually higher than for the other properties (typically five times), expect your Crime rate to reach much higher (or lower) values.

When Crime reaches a certain level in your city, new "Crime" buildings will appear - Murder, Pickpocket, etc. Most of those buildings are unlocked at specific techs (not just by Crime level) so you may find yourself with a big hit on your economy after researching a tech due to a range of Crime building suddenly appearing.

There are many, many crime building with various prerequisites, maluses and even bonuses; the list below just gives the main effects for all crimes (sorted chronologically by unlock tech) to keep things readable. (Some Tech Prereq were changed to protect the innocent over a year ago.)

Link repeated:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ollution-disease-flammability-tourism.548239/


This table found in RWN Strategy thread about the Property systems is missing a column. There are several crimes that also generate More crime.

4 of these Individual Crime were also removed as being rather redundant or nonsensical.

Some of the later Crimes that come in a High crime levels Like Timeline Tampering do next to nothing considering what they should represent and cause on game play.

Some lower level earlier crimes were moved to late game Techs like Gang Warfare (moved from Warfare to a Modern Era tech).

Important: As was pointed out when RWN's thread came under discussion, trying to calculate your Crime level and How Much you expect it to reduce by building an X building or Y unit is Not Straight forward math. The dynamics of the Crime property system coupled with all the outside Crime producing areas makes a math formula impossibly hard to give. The variables can change from doing something or getting something that seems to be totally separate from the Crime property. New Players Need to Understand this when they protest, criticize, or want a revamp. The threads of Crime run thru the whole Fabric of C2C. Even some of the Modders forget this at times too.

JosEPh

 

[tmv]

The really bad thing about tourism is pollution. You can get all 10 levels unlocked at Classical Lifestyle, and if you have been fairly successful so far, you can now get runaway pollution, and unlike with crime or disease, there is very little you can do to combat it at this point.

I don't have anything against trying to curb the tech leader, but it should at least be a choice. A while ago I proposed a choice (perhaps by ordinance or worlview) to banish the tourists, losing , and in the process and perhaps getting a diplomatic malus. It could be made a really hard choice with quite a few downsides so that it wouldn't be a no-brainer for the tech leader, but getting this pollution that you cannot do anything about as fate seems wrong.

Another way to deal with this could be an anti-tourism promotion for criminals .

 

[Thunderbrd]

EDIT: so much for the new Forum system to let you organize a copy/paste.

Yeah, the new forum sucks for charts bigtime! You can use the [ code ] tag to keep indents at least.

From this Table RWN compiled you will notice that Crime is introduced at Twice the rate of all other Malus. With the Current Crime system this is too strong. It should match the progression rate of the other 3 malus that use the Property system.

So that you are aware, I'm removing the crime from the unsanctioned criminal spawn buildings and spreading them out from 100-900 in trigger levels. Crime was established on tourism as being so strong because in RL, it has about twice the effect on crime as it would on the other factors. I'm not sure if it will need to be reduced after you and I have now smoothed out crime progression. We'll need late game cities to be able to reach 900+ crime now without being too worried about it anyhow. I agree with tmv that pollution is way too much for tourism though. I can see some but pollution follows slightly different valuations per point considering how you can't control it until late game and when you can it's nothing like the ability to control crime or disease. Dramatic reductions to those values would be good.

The really bad thing about tourism is pollution. You can get all 10 levels unlocked at Classical Lifestyle, and if you have been fairly successful so far, you can now get runaway pollution, and unlike with crime or disease, there is very little you can do to combat it at this point.

Aside from pollution, you bring up a second good point. All 10 levels being unlocked immediately at Classical Lifestyle seems incorrect. Those should be spread out some past Classical Lifestyle so that only in the late game can the highest level be reached.

Another way to deal with this could be an anti-tourism promotion for criminals

I love the idea but I think the AI might get tied in a knot over that.



As an aside, I'm still disturbed to find out that population isn't the base factor for disease property buildup. I thought it was a mirror of crime... it really should be. And if that means making it a mirror of crime on tourism as well, I won't stand against that. I can see how tourism definitely enhances the likelihood of disease indeed.

Tourism should also ADD, imo, a trade route for every level. To represent where the tourists are actually coming from.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Hydro had a file for anti-pollution Crop buildings at one time. I'll look to see if I still have it saved.

EDIT: Yep still have it. It's from October 2013. Looks like Mr Azure tried to make it Modular. But Hydro also has his original Schema file if that is even needed.

JosEPh

 

[Faustmouse]

I think tourism was just added as a dummy, so it is free to edit as you like. I really like the idea with trade routes!
And instead of pure tech and property requirements, I think the later levels should require things like airport,commercial airport etc... And only these should really add air pollution!

A small comment on Disease: I still (Classical era) don't do any countermeasures against it. It's just not worth it, as it only generates and , both are easily countered by all the and bonuses I get. Note that I play on Deity and without "More Resources".

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think tourism was just added as a dummy, so it is free to edit as you like. I really like the idea with trade routes!
And instead of pure tech and property requirements, I think the later levels should require things like airport,commercial airport etc... And only these should really add air pollution!

A small comment on Disease: I still (Classical era) don't do any countermeasures against it. It's just not worth it, as it only generates and , both are easily countered by all the and bonuses I get. Note that I play on Deity and without "More Resources".

Good idea on requiring later era higher level tourism to increase air pollution. I don't see much reason (other than maybe more burning to provide lighting needed to in use) until then.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am not sure if I want to get in a discussion about all this since Crime was originally my baby in C2C. The thing i liked about C2C crime is all the specific crimes. They were varied and came at different city levels, different crime levels and different techs. It made them more unexpected. Harder to plan for. This structured randomness is what I really liked about them when I made it.

Having a gradual gold cost for crime will make it boring. You might as well just pay a crime tax then.

EDIT: Note I have not played a recent version of C2C so there may be a lot of changes since my time.

 

[Noriad2]

I think tourism was just added as a dummy, so it is free to edit as you like. I really like the idea with trade routes!
And instead of pure tech and property requirements, I think the later levels should require things like airport,commercial airport etc... And only these should really add air pollution!

A small comment on Disease: I still (Classical era) don't do any countermeasures against it. It's just not worth it, as it only generates and , both are easily countered by all the and bonuses I get. Note that I play on Deity and without "More Resources".

Historically, there were no really effective remedies for diseases before the invention of penicillin anyway. Other than amputating rotting body parts or the occasional quarantine measure. There were lots of stupid remedies though, like bloodletting or sacrificing animals to certain gods.

 

[Faustmouse]

Historically, there were no really effective remedies for diseases before the invention of penicillin anyway. Other than amputating rotting body parts or the occasional quarantine measure. There were lots of stupid remedies though, like bloodletting or sacrificing animals to certain gods.

Might be true, but fighting disease is not just about curing a disease, but also about preventing it. Wash yourself, stay away from dead/rotting animals, clear your cave/house etc.

But still, is about 5 below my in most cities, but is just over the top! I have a surplus of 30 or so in my cities, making wonders that give +1 in all cities almost irrelevant.

 

[Noriad2]

@Faustmouse: if you spam cities before bronze working you run out of that 30 happiness surplus rather soonish. And that is without regards for war weariness.

 

[MacCoise]

I am not sure if I want to get in a discussion about all this since Crime was originally my baby in C2C. The thing i liked about C2C crime is all the specific crimes. They were varied and came at different city levels, different crime levels and different techs. It made them more unexpected. Harder to plan for. This structured randomness is what I really liked about them when I made it.

Having a gradual gold cost for crime will make it boring. You might as well just pay a crime tax then.

EDIT: Note I have not played a recent version of C2C so there may be a lot of changes since my time.

It's like it was working perfectly but then the whole criminal mini-game was introduced. The principle is fine but it added a feature that can only add crime to what was a balanced system