reverend mother mechanics

[Ahriman]

Some interesting ideas here.

Perhaps the BG can have a spy mission carried out in another civ's city which gives a +4 permanent diplomatic reaction

I would tend to have a +1 mission, rather than a +4, and have it be useable repeatedly, with a maximum total modifier from that effect.
Similarly, -1 rather than -4.
Obviously, the difficulty is in getting the AI to use this and other espionage missions.
Have your explorations led to you learning anything about the espionage AI?

One obvious way is to just give BG a permanent +4 diplomacy with everybody

In terms of flavor, I worry about overlap between Likeable Atreides (like Duke Leto), and the Bene Gesserit. Nobody really likes or trusts the Bene Gesserit, they're just good at using blackmail to get things done. Would there be a way to make it easier for the BGs to get deals, *without* making them generally more likable?

Perhaps another promotion or BG skill would be to stay in the city after carrying out the action, succeed or fail.

Maybe.... but this risks messing up other espionage balance. Part of the balancing factor for espionage is having to build multiple spies if you want to use thme a lot. I don't think it would be good to be able to carry out all the espionage you wanted with just 2 infiltrators.
But this might be a good idea, since the AI doesn't do intercontinental spy transport well, which is somethnig else we should consider before making factions too dependent on espionage.
Didn't you just make suspensor transport though available to spies - was that all spies? Do we know if it actually works in terms of the AI using them, or do we have a Fremen problem, where the units could cross desert, but the AI doesn't know that?

The spy mission that plants your culture in enemy cities will be very BG-appropriate.

by sacrificing Riverend mother and hight exp unit you

Why should you have to sacrifice a Rev Mother?

I could see RMs being attached to units though, like FFH great generals, for a first strike bonus and +1 xp per combat.

I would prefer to keep any breeding program type things strictly outside the engine.
I don't want them to be trying to move units around collecting genetic material from other factions. that sounds kinda lame and impossible for the AI.

... at night after taking their semen

Oh please god no....

The spy missions like poison water give 8 unhappiness which wears off at one per turn. I could make the diplomacy benefit work like that

This seems reasonable, but a permanent +1
Alternative; how about the mission sacrifices the unit for a permanent +1 diplomacy modifier (or -1 diplomacy modifier)?
So what you are doing is building a unit that is permanently imbedded as an advisor/ambassador with the other faction?

So the diplomacy modifier description is "We have Bene Gesserit advisors manipulating this faction". And the more witches you have advising them, the larger is the diplomacy modifier. With some cap.

 

[Ahriman]

Thoughts:

Have several unique Bene Gesserit UUs, each with a single active ability (and maybe a minor passive ability), and a unique AI designed for that ability.

Unit names:
Sisterhood Initiate, Reverend Mother, Truthsayer, Kwizatch Haderach

Sisterhood Initiate. Requires Faith tech. Requires Sisterhood Covenant resource.
Creates a FFH-wall of stone-type building that gives +6 espionage points.
National limit 5.
Cheap.
Basically, this lets you get a big head start on the espionage race.
[Problem; this would probably work better with just an actual building.
Missionaria Protectiva building, gives +1 culture +4 espionage points, requires Faith tech.]

Reverend Mother. Requires water of life tech. Requires Sisterhood Covenant resource.
As current; slowly trains units in the stack. Starts with sentry 1, sentry 2. (OR can spot invisible units: this would actually work well here, I think its reasonable for Bene Gesserit to be able to spot and kill incoming spies).
National limit 3.

Truthsayer. Requires Mind Training tech and Water of Life tech. Requires BG faction.
Espionage unit, sacrifices self in enemy city to gain permanent +1 diplomacy modifier with that faction.
National limit 1.

Kwizatz Haderach. Requires Kwizatz Haderach tech. Requires BG faction.
World unit, limit 1.
Single super-unit.
Maybe strength 20 or so, but with a TON of first strikes (like 4-5), sentry 1, sentry 2, can spot invisible.

 

[Deliverator]

I prefer the term Acolyte to Initiate. I'm pretty sure that's the name given to BG trainees.

I was thinking of a Truthsayer unit too. It would nice if she had some more unique powers or than just the permanent diplomatic bonus. She should be uber-counter-espionage since she can force almost anyone to tell the truth!

I like the idea of a Kwizatz Haderach super unit, but I think that it should not be something only the BG can get. Perhaps other civs can have a different path to it.

 

[davidlallen]

We are thinking along similar lines (for once ).

I propose:

Weirding Instructor (uses current Qizarate advocate artwork): uses today's RM training ability but not prescience or ability to enter enemy borders. Keep it stacked with any SOD and the stack becomes even doomier.

Reverend Mother: becomes a UU spy. Probably not today, but in the next week or so, I will experiment with these ideas for diplo missions for spies. I was also thinking that the idea of sacrificing a unit for permanent +1 diplo is just like the Great Merchant, only with diplomacy instead of gold at the end.

Truthsayer: UU of Great Prophet. This idea I am less certain about. I assume you can make a UU of a GP. I would add some kind of spy defense. Secondary importance, but we should do something with this very thematic name.

Kwisatz Haderach tech tree: four new techs called KH I,II,III,IV. Each tech grants a free unit, so there are four new units called KH I,II,II,IV. (Obviously we can find better names than just I,II,III,IV). The units have increasing levels of power, but cannot be normally built. You only get one, period, end of story. I don't think that giving the unit itself a high attack strength is a good idea; many people have rejected the idea of a single person high attack value unit. But we can relocate the Atreides Heir concept. I like the concept but it can work just as well for KH as AH. Something like:

KH I: +10% strength to all stacked units, 2 plot visibility (today's prescience promo)

KH II: +10% and one first strike to all stacked units, 2 plot visibility

KH III: +25% strength and one first strike, 4 plot visibility

KH IV: +50% strength and two first strikes, grants visibility to entire board (like vanilla satellites tech)

 

[Ahriman]

Lets make sure that we keep in mind which techs for which units, that has a large effect on their balance.
In general we want to:
a) Fill out some of the weaker techs
b) Spread these units to particular techs that have BG flavor, like Academies, Water of Life, and Kwizatch Haderach.

We should also be clear with which units are BG-only, and which are URU units from the Sisterhood Covenant resource.

It would nice if she had some more unique powers or than just the permanent diplomatic bonus

Multiple features on a unit are harder to AI code, surely, when we need such a narrow AI. The National limit of 1 is also designed to limit the abuse, especially by a human player.
I would guess that the AI code for Truthsayers should be something like: go to the nearest city of the highest score civ that has not already maxed out on Truthsayers stationed with that civ. So the AI will do that with every newly built Truthsayer.

If you wanted to include espionage, maybe just include a 1-shot espionage point gain +100 EPs when you use the truthsayer ability (and sacrifice it)?

Weirding Instructor (uses current Qizarate advocate artwork): uses today's RM training ability but not prescience or ability to enter enemy borders. Keep it stacked with any SOD and the stack becomes even doomier.

Seems reasonable. I forget, do we still have a Weirding tech? We could put it there, though that is quite late.

Reverend Mother: becomes a UU spy

There are two ways I can see this working.
One is to literally just have RMs as a UU spy that replaces the infiltrator.
The other is to still have normal infiltrator spies for normal espionage missions, and then to have Reverend Mothers as Improved Spies, coming from Water of Life tech, with their specific espionage missions unique to this unit (causing uprising for X turns, shifting influence, adding culture to enemy cities, etc)
I favor the latter. We don't want RMs to come too early, and we don't want RMs to spend their time sabotaging improvements and poisoning water supplies.

Truthsayer: UU of Great Prophet

I dunno. I think the Truthsayer works best with the sacrifice for diplomacy option; thats kinda how this works, the Bene Gesserit's lend out Truthsayers in exchange for influence.
If the Truthsayer is just going to be anti-espionage, I think the "spots invisible units" would be good, so that you can use them to kill enemy spies during wartime.

Kwisatz Haderach tech tree: four new techs called KH I,II,III,IV

I don't really like this. These techs would be very very narrow, and they would make the tech tree messy.

Maybe we should tie them into the existing techs? So these things are triggered by Event from the first Bene Gesserit civ to research Theocracy, Academies, Mind Training and Kwizatz Haderach.

The units have increasing levels of power, but cannot be normally built. You only get one, period, end of story. I don't think that giving the unit itself a high attack strength is a good idea; many people have rejected the idea of a single person high attack value units

Sounds good.

But we can relocate the Atreides Heir concept

Seems plausible, though some of the bonuses may be a little large.

KH IV: +50% strength and two first strikes, grants visibility to entire board (like vanilla satellites tech)

Doesn't satellites just remove the shroud, for unexplored areas?
It doesn't remove fog of war. So it doesn't substitute for things like a 4-plot visibility.
And doesn't the satellites tech in Dunewars still have this effect?
Maybe just make it something like +10 plot visibility.

 

[davidlallen]

In general we want to:
a) Fill out some of the weaker techs
b) Spread these units to particular techs that have BG flavor, like Academies, Water of Life, and Kwizatch Haderach.

My concept was that we would put KH I-IV as techs at the extreme lower right corner of the tech tree, grant the KH I tech as a starting tech for BG, and use a high AIWeight to keep BG interested in them. I threw together a screenshot with dummy xml.

We should also be clear with which units are BG-only, and which are URU units from the Sisterhood Covenant resource.

Good point. The BG is very low on UU. So my thought was to get rid of the SC resource and make all of these units purely UU.

The other is to still have normal infiltrator spies for normal espionage missions, and then to have Reverend Mothers as Improved Spies, coming from Water of Life tech, with their specific espionage missions unique to this unit (causing uprising for X turns, shifting influence, adding culture to enemy cities, etc)

That sounds good. Right now there is no way to limit espionage missions to one civ or one unit, so that will have to be the first thing I add.

Doesn't satellites just remove the shroud, for unexplored areas? It doesn't remove fog of war. So it doesn't substitute for things like a 4-plot visibility. And doesn't the satellites tech in Dunewars still have this effect? Maybe just make it something like +10 plot visibility.

You would think that the tech would be satellites, but due to the random historical background of the tech tree, it is currently Aerial Tactics. I fixed that just now. Good point anyway. There is no particular harm in having two ways to achieve map visibility. I can also try 10-plot visibility, but because the game engine has to do operations on "N squared" number of plots, I am a little concerned the turn time may slow down.

EDIT: there isn't any good way to restrict a tech to one civ. A free starting tech is the only way I know. There is a python callback, but it is known to have a huge impact on runtime. Keldath had mentioned a while back about an existing modcomp which does this, but it may be complex to merge. Another possibility is to make it a project. The BG could get a free starting tech which has no particular purpose except to enable a project. I assume a project can have several stages, but I haven't used that much. If you dislike the separate tech tree concept, we can explore projects.

 

[Ahriman]

My concept was that we would put KH I-IV as techs at the extreme lower right corner of the tech tree

Human players won't really notice it there. And if the 4 techs are going to require other techs anyway (eg theocracy, academies, mind training, KH) in order to regulate when they come, why require the extra tech? Why not just give the bonus with those techs?

What is the design gain from requiring extra techs?

So my thought was to get rid of the SC resource and make all of these units purely UU.

I would be ok with that. We could interpret the diplomacy bonus mechanic as an alternative way of lending BG advisors lent out to other factions.

There is no particular harm in having two ways to achieve map visibility.

Agreed.

I can also try 10-plot visibility, but because the game engine has to do operations on "N squared" number of plots, I am a little concerned the turn time may slow down

Good point.
Then just leave it at +4; my point was to make sure that the level 4 is not a step down from the level 3 in terms of the visual range, as would happen if the level 3 had +4 and the level 4 had just the terrain reveal effect.

 

[davidlallen]

And if the 4 techs are going to require other techs anyway (eg theocracy, academies, mind training, KH) in order to regulate when they come, why require the extra tech?

My concept was to regulate progression along the KH branch by a really high beaker cost. Also, having those techs separate means I do not have to give civ-specific benefits to a tech, or civ-specific AI weights either. It also seems to capture the theme concept of a secret research project which only the BG can work on.

I ninja'd your post with an edit. Projects may be a better approach but I have not used them much.

 

[Ahriman]

My concept was to regulate progression along the KH branch by a really high beaker cost.

I dont' like this. I don't think the AI does a good job of considering beaker costs alone, hence why we have a tech tree with requirements. Tech requirements are the easiest to balance way of regulating access.

Also, with really high beaker costs, the player (and AI) would probably be better served by moving along the normal tree, rather than diverting for just one unit, so this shouldn't see much use.

What is the design reason for separating these out from the main tree? I see no benefit. No other faction has to divert beakers outside their normal technological development in order to access their UUs.

Another point; we need a way so that the different level KH bonuses do NOT stack with each other in a single tile.

*edit*

there isn't any good way to restrict a tech to one civ

Well, there are in FFH and Warhammer and others, but that may require sdk changes that aren't worth the effort.
This would seem to support tying them to the existing tree.
Or you could fake it by having them require an invisible tech that the BGs started with, I guess.

 

[davidlallen]

Let's explore a project which only the BG can perform. I really like the idea of a separate place for this, rather than having it occur during normal tech progression.

 

[Deliverator]

EDIT: there isn't any good way to restrict a tech to one civ.

Perhaps there is... A long long time ago I suggested making minimal use of the Civ Specific Tech Trees modcomp. It is updated to 3.19 and looks really flexible. You can have just one or two unique techs per civ or just have one civ that gets a unique branch. Maybe we have a case for using it now.

I think there could be a few other good uses for this modcomp to get our factions more distinctive.

 

[davidlallen]

with really high beaker costs, the player (and AI) would probably be better served by moving along the normal tree, rather than diverting for just one unit, so this shouldn't see much use ... What is the design reason for separating these out from the main tree? I see no benefit. No other faction has to divert beakers outside their normal technological development in order to access their UUs.

That is one strong vote against civ-specific techs. Does anybody else *like* the idea of a project that the BG can invest in separately, instead of just picking up the units as they go along the regular tech tree? If civ-specific techs isn't the right way, is there another way, like projects?

 

[Hived]

I like Ahrimans version most.
Putting them in the regular tech-tree (or maybe in buildings from the tree) doesn't mess up at all. Deliverators link also looks interesting... but adding such a component (not knowing, if compatible to DW-changes and also having to redefine channels for trees and civs) seems to me too much work, just for the BG-UUs...
of course, when you think of giving several factions "personal ways", such a component is very welcome.

I think the +1 permanent by "sacrifice" (lending advisor) seems decided.
I am still missing the voice

Greetz, Hived.

 

[God-Emperor]

I like the BG Sisterhood Covenant UR

It allows me (and AIs) to produce the Reverend Mother unit without being the BG, as long as it is possible to get sufficiently good relations with them. Throughout the books and such, the BG's have "units" spread throughout the other factions working for them (mostly). It's quite thematic.

If you get rid of this, there's also the question of why not get rid of the Fremen Water Debt UR and make the things it enables into Fremen UUs?
Ditto for the Ix's Thinking Machines.
Ditto for Corrino's Sardaukar Cooperation.

 

[Ahriman]

I really like the idea of a separate place for this, rather than having it occur during normal tech progression.

Why?
10chars

 

[davidlallen]

I like the BG Sisterhood Covenant UR

We have the mechanic of URU, but that doesn't mean we have to use it everywhere. I agree that it makes some sense to have RM show up in the "entourage" of other leaders ... but do you *really* believe they are working in the best interest of that leader if it is against the best interest of the BG? The leader just *thinks* they are controlling the RM. The main reason for removing the URU is to give BG something actually unique. I am having trouble finding unique things for BG.

I really like the idea of a separate place for this, rather than having it occur during normal tech progression.

It's a secret project the BG have put a lot of effort into, which has no other benefit than creating a KH. Suppose we put it into the techtree. I play BG and I start picking up these units just by coincidence as I go through the tree. It doesn't feel like I did anything extra.

Nonetheless, I see many votes against the idea, and none but myself in favor. So if we take the four units I mentioned, and put them into the tree, where should they go? Social Mobility, Genetic Manipulation, Water of Life, maybe. I have renamed the tech at the far right of the tech tree to "Future Tech", so KH becomes available as a name. Can I add it as one new tech off Water of Life?

 

[Deliverator]

I am having trouble finding unique things for BG.

Well, really they don't make any more sense as a faction that the Guild did. I know Ahriman has said "imagine that the are manipulating a puppet house" which semi-works. The Bene Gesserit are all about behind the scenes manipulation rather than overt control, just like the Guild. It is hard to model that sort of behind the scenes manipulation in a Civ4 mod. The radical solution would be to scrap them as we did the Guild, you could still have RMs, but we probably don't want to do that for variety reasons.

I quite like the URU mechanic for them, but maybe they could be a sort of FFH2 world spell that turns all Reverend Mothers back to Bene Gesserit. In the fiction BGs are allowed some freedom but the loyalty is called in from time to time. You could have a trade off you can build a Reverend Mother to train your troops, etc, but there is always a risk she might be recalled by the BG leadership.

Some kind of modelling of the breeding program might be interesting. If the BG have good diplomatic relations with two different cis then you could have a change that an offspring of those two factions is born. If this is repeated several times you could collect offspring in a some sort of family tree towards the Kwisatz Haderach.

 

[Ahriman]

I have no problem with making them all UU's rather than URUs. I agree with David on this point.

I play BG and I start picking up these units just by coincidence as I go through the tree. It doesn't feel like I did anything extra.

Then, alternatively, why not make them like a FFH hero unit; they are built with hammers, but you can only ever have one copy, and if that dies, you can never replace it.
That way, you still have to do something extra to get one (hammers), but don't have to use separate techs.

If you like, rather than building the unit, you could have 4 projects, each which triggers an event when created that creates the unit as appropriate.

I don't like the idea that the Bene Gesserit will be backward in tech, because they devote resources to their KH project.

As for techs:
I like the idea of one being available early, probably at the Theocracy tech (or whatever we rename it). I'm not sure Social Mobility makes sense. But otherwise:
Water of Life and Genetic Manipulation make sense.

Can I add it as one new tech off Water of Life?

I forget the exact tech structure now (and which techs are requirements), but the final KH tech should probably require Genetic Manipulation AND Mind training AND Water of Life at a minimum. I have no problem with the final one being a new tech. But I think the intermediates should not.

but there is always a risk she might be recalled by the BG leadership.

This sounds very not-fun to me. Arbitrarily losing your units is nearly always bad design IMO.

Some kind of modelling of the breeding program might be interesting.

I don't think this is wise. I don't think it would be fun, and I don't think the AI would understand it.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

It's a secret project the BG have put a lot of effort into, which has no other benefit than creating a KH. Suppose we put it into the techtree. I play BG and I start picking up these units just by coincidence as I go through the tree. It doesn't feel like I did anything extra.

I play BG and I start picking up these units just by coincidence as I go through the tree. It doesn't feel like I did anything extra.

why dont you compromise.

instead of integrating the Units directly into the current tech tree, make the units require a series of Projects requiring different techs to be built in cities before they can be constructed. this way the BG diverts their production to their 'secret project' while still maintaining a normal tech progression.

 

[davidlallen]

OK, I have split up RM mechanics into (a) training ability on Sayyadina, (b) Reverend Mother becomes a URU spy unit, (c) prescience moves to a set of four KH units of increasing power.

English language question on names for the four KH units. I don't want "Kwisatz Haderach I, II, III, IV". I want to find words which will still give a feeling of progression. How about:

Kwisatz Precursor
Kwisatz Candidate
Kwisatz Finalist
Kwisatz Haderach

Is it clear to English speakers what order these should go in? Is it at all clear to non-native English speakers? Precursor is an uncommon word.