Reworking spell system
- Thread starter Ahwaric
- Start date
well, if you want metamagic III to allow for 1 more lvl 3 spell (+3sc in my proposal/exemple/brainstorm),
spellstaff causing a refresh of the sc supply would becoome overpowered.. (7sc *2 =14sc)..
there's a flaw somewhere in my reasonning..
spellstaff causing a refresh of the sc supply would becoome overpowered.. (7sc *2 =14sc)..
there's a flaw somewhere in my reasonning..
Kalina
Just lurking...
No, just refresh, without extra sc. With Spellstaff giving 3 sc Adept can cast 4 spells per turn and it sounds like too much
But this is minor, balancing thing, not really important now Hey guys..new to this thread so sorry if I repeat something.
First issue .. there are too many many types to make them all really usable and some are certainly better than others. When I play, my archmages are almost always going for nature magic to adjust the terrain especially when I play a Non-Erebus map. After that is usually enchantment to make my soldiers that much stronger. Body Magic is next for Haste and Regeneration.
Summoned units maybe good in a pinch or scenario, but I prefer units I can keep around and make stronger over the length of the game (soldiers, archers, etc). This eliminates alot of the magic mana types.
Some city spells like inspiration, hope, and those are nice but they're something I might use when I have enough soldiers to defend my city. Their utility is fairly small.
Life magic is good if your fighting a nation that uses lots of undead units (Sheaim, Scions, Hyborem). Being able to destroy an entire stack of undead with just a few mages cripples these nations, but after that, they are not useful for much.
Only reason I chase every magic type now is to have the ability to make the Tower of Mastery as a victory type. I chase all the victory types when I play.
A reduction of mana types might help improve some spell lines and eliminate those that really dont have alot of utility.
I'll use another post to keep this going. I don't want to write a book in one post
First issue .. there are too many many types to make them all really usable and some are certainly better than others. When I play, my archmages are almost always going for nature magic to adjust the terrain especially when I play a Non-Erebus map. After that is usually enchantment to make my soldiers that much stronger. Body Magic is next for Haste and Regeneration.
Summoned units maybe good in a pinch or scenario, but I prefer units I can keep around and make stronger over the length of the game (soldiers, archers, etc). This eliminates alot of the magic mana types.
Some city spells like inspiration, hope, and those are nice but they're something I might use when I have enough soldiers to defend my city. Their utility is fairly small.
Life magic is good if your fighting a nation that uses lots of undead units (Sheaim, Scions, Hyborem). Being able to destroy an entire stack of undead with just a few mages cripples these nations, but after that, they are not useful for much.
Only reason I chase every magic type now is to have the ability to make the Tower of Mastery as a victory type. I chase all the victory types when I play.
A reduction of mana types might help improve some spell lines and eliminate those that really dont have alot of utility.
I'll use another post to keep this going. I don't want to write a book in one post
Second Issue - Mages vs other units
I agree that the mage units themselves are weak and can rarely stand up for themselves when under attack. It is also very hard to defend them when you have them out in the field (assassins). I usually cover them now by keep disciples in the stack
One weakness I see with mages is that gaining experience through combat is not much of an option. Mages may kill a unit with fireballs, but they dont get experience from the kill. Area attack spells like Snowfall and Maelstrom do lots of damage, but do not gain the mages and experience. Hand to Hand combat is not much of an option since a mage's base strength is so low.
It maybe necessary to force mages to specialize in an area of magic and granting them an affinity for their magic type (+ strength per magic spell) so that they can compete with their martial counterparts. With less mana types (as mentioned above) this won't be so overwhelming. Maybe mages can have a self-buff spell which increases their attack/defense which expires at the end of a turn so they can compete.
I've got some other ideas, but I'll hold here for now so I don't get banned for multiple postings.
I agree that the mage units themselves are weak and can rarely stand up for themselves when under attack. It is also very hard to defend them when you have them out in the field (assassins). I usually cover them now by keep disciples in the stack
One weakness I see with mages is that gaining experience through combat is not much of an option. Mages may kill a unit with fireballs, but they dont get experience from the kill. Area attack spells like Snowfall and Maelstrom do lots of damage, but do not gain the mages and experience. Hand to Hand combat is not much of an option since a mage's base strength is so low.
It maybe necessary to force mages to specialize in an area of magic and granting them an affinity for their magic type (+ strength per magic spell) so that they can compete with their martial counterparts. With less mana types (as mentioned above) this won't be so overwhelming. Maybe mages can have a self-buff spell which increases their attack/defense which expires at the end of a turn so they can compete.
I've got some other ideas, but I'll hold here for now so I don't get banned for multiple postings.
Therlun
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2004
- Messages
- 39
I really like the idea of reducing the amount of different mana types and would support basically anything that reduces and streamlines the current flood of slighty weak types.
I voted for "reduce even more", and could even imagine restricting civs to a small subset of the reduced amount.
I voted for "reduce even more", and could even imagine restricting civs to a small subset of the reduced amount.
Humakty
Happy Goblin
I don't mind changes, one way or another, and the proposed changes seem very intersting, but my main gripe with casters in Orbis is I can hardly justify giving them more than one sphere of magic (promotion) vs maxing out combat promotions first. So I'd like to see magic promotions giving sideway bonuses related to the specific kind of magic. Or XP bonuses, like in FF (or whatever the mod that sported this modification)
I cast magic missile
I attack the darkness!
Rainbow Sand
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 9, 2010
- Messages
- 72
Always i wondered why all spellcasting "promos" are directly tied to xp?
As these FfH spellcasters are apparently wizards not naturals then to remove all spellcasting promos from 'gained at lvlup' and make them to be gained thru training at facilities with lvl requirement - as 'stay at library/mages guild/whatever for x turns and gain spell n if at xp lvl y, have channeling z and tech m had been researched'
If theres a 'school' concept implemented, then by definition of 'school' each 'spell school' promo should give multiple spells at once.
On channeling, as the ability to channel power grows naturally from its use, then 'chan x -> chan x+1' transition should be triggered after n spells had been cast.
Imo the very concept of some units, mages and arcmages in particular, being tied to tech lvl and upgraded for gold is utter nonsense. Vanilla civ upgrade had the meaning of switching to improved gear, whilst mages are growing by internal means. So if my previous propositions are to be made alive, a single arcane unit shall suffice, with titles as an "Omnipotent Superpowerful Archwielder of Magic Missile" to be added thru rename unit at player's whim.
Thus ridiculous need for mages to run thru forests hunting goblins with escort of henchmen to learn spells shall be removed - if, of cource, each spellcast shall grant xp as it is with shooting cant-remember-where.
Also idea of spellcasters gaining brawn from upgrades/combat promos is questionable - traditionally, mages aren't muscularly brutes as strength 5 suggesting.
If there are pagan temples (quite strange name: paganus towards what?) then they are literally asking for spellcasting unit "shaman" which can advance to the higher arcane skills with tech and faculties in future.
Arcane units are to have 2-3 innate first strikes as they all have some skills in ranged combat and prediction.
Higher levels of channeling are to allow not only powerful sole spells, but more than one of lesser ones to be cast in single turn - 'twincast' and that "master of something" with its enormous 'miscast' go obsolete where they belong.
As these FfH spellcasters are apparently wizards not naturals then to remove all spellcasting promos from 'gained at lvlup' and make them to be gained thru training at facilities with lvl requirement - as 'stay at library/mages guild/whatever for x turns and gain spell n if at xp lvl y, have channeling z and tech m had been researched'
If theres a 'school' concept implemented, then by definition of 'school' each 'spell school' promo should give multiple spells at once.
On channeling, as the ability to channel power grows naturally from its use, then 'chan x -> chan x+1' transition should be triggered after n spells had been cast.
Imo the very concept of some units, mages and arcmages in particular, being tied to tech lvl and upgraded for gold is utter nonsense. Vanilla civ upgrade had the meaning of switching to improved gear, whilst mages are growing by internal means. So if my previous propositions are to be made alive, a single arcane unit shall suffice, with titles as an "Omnipotent Superpowerful Archwielder of Magic Missile" to be added thru rename unit at player's whim.
Thus ridiculous need for mages to run thru forests hunting goblins with escort of henchmen to learn spells shall be removed - if, of cource, each spellcast shall grant xp as it is with shooting cant-remember-where.
Also idea of spellcasters gaining brawn from upgrades/combat promos is questionable - traditionally, mages aren't muscularly brutes as strength 5 suggesting.
If there are pagan temples (quite strange name: paganus towards what?) then they are literally asking for spellcasting unit "shaman" which can advance to the higher arcane skills with tech and faculties in future.
Arcane units are to have 2-3 innate first strikes as they all have some skills in ranged combat and prediction.
Higher levels of channeling are to allow not only powerful sole spells, but more than one of lesser ones to be cast in single turn - 'twincast' and that "master of something" with its enormous 'miscast' go obsolete where they belong.
ScrubbyTheKid
Chieftain
@rainbow sand: hmm when arcane units get xp per casted spell you would be able to lvl your units just by spamming enchantment spells ...
and strength V might also suggest that they learned some minor spells that help them during combat
on the poll: those suggestion of yours sound lovely..
edit: if you kill the ice mana it .. lentum frigus will also be deleted.. and therefor the illians can't get the aggressive trait and the amurites don't get their GA.. that might be something to take into account...
another thing.. the religious wonders give mana.. if you kill those mana types which types of mana will you give to the affected wonders?
and strength V might also suggest that they learned some minor spells that help them during combat
on the poll: those suggestion of yours sound lovely..
edit: if you kill the ice mana it .. lentum frigus will also be deleted.. and therefor the illians can't get the aggressive trait and the amurites don't get their GA.. that might be something to take into account...
another thing.. the religious wonders give mana.. if you kill those mana types which types of mana will you give to the affected wonders?
