Reworking spell system

[Ahwaric]

I know, another poll. But as the previous two did help, I will post this one too.

When workning on version 1.0, I have noticed several issues, which I want to fix that way or another.

1. arcane units are quite weak, and might need improvement
2. spell promotions cost the same as other promotions, but usually you can use just one at once (the rest is not active as you can cast only one spell per turn)
3. there are 21 types of mana, and that is too much IMHO
4. some mana types are simply religion specific (ice!)

So, my proposals

• reduce number of mana types to 12-15
• removed necromancy tech
• II & III grade of magic school provide more than one spell
• spells redistributed, no more summoning or damaging schools...
• some spells require more than one magic school
• mastery promotions - enhancing duration of specified promotions and granting extra promotions to specified summons (i.e. elemental mastery enhancing elemental schools buffs & elementals)
• more promotions tailored for arcane units, including offensive magic

So, the proposed magic schools are:
Elemenatlism

• air
• earth
• fire
• water

Divination

• Mind
• Spirit
• Light (=life)
• Dark (=death)

Alteration

• Body
• Nature
• Law
• Chaos

Sorcery - metamagic

Sheduled for deletion:

1. Entropy - merged in dark magic
2. ice - mostly religion school, water/earth
3. shadow - religion school, plus merged in air/dark magic
4. sun - religion school, plus merged in fire/light
5. dimensional - merged in spirit mostly, maybe body & metamagic too
6. enchantment - distributed to law/chaos & elemental magic

 

[tesb]

that sounds great. an other suggestion: when a unit has access to numerous similiar spells the spells should merge for example, if you have blur and haste then you get a new spell which replaces the two and have the affect of both.

 

[Wauthan]

Your proposal seems very reasonable Ahwaric. I agree that magic is very weak in FFH in spite of being a high-fantasy setting. I started writing on a suggestion on how I would like arcane units to work, more like joinable-unjoinable great generals with spell "promotions" (summoned units being an insta-joinable squad instead), but that's really outside the scope of this poll.

Good call on putting death, entropy and life into Divination. I always assumed that those spells had their roots in communicating with spirits. I guess that means that Demons and Angels are blocked from learning the Divination tech since well... they could just talk to their kind face-to-face instead. Maybe add some UU casters for those two civs with their own spell list?

Will summoned units give their xp to their caster when they die/unsummon?

 

[Apeiron]

It is a good proposition. But I dislike the alteration classification :

Alteration

* Body
* Nature
* Law
* Chaos

Because I didn't like a type of "body" mana. Maybe the heal spell may be in light, etc. Well, we can imagine an "astral" mana (for dimensional spells) or an "enchantment" mana ?

And what about the refined mana ?

 

[Kalina]

Just some random thoughts and saying some obvious things

arcane units are quite weak, and might need improvement

Please not that proposed changed won't affect their power level, just their versatility. With more spells per caster you just need less casters to do their job, and with one spell per turn even this is not certain.
Spells are very tough to balance - right now we have, in general, direct damage spells, buff spells, utilty spells and summoning spells. Summoning spells are way too weak unless they have affinity, like Death II or Ice II summons or using some combo with twincast and spellstaff in case of Level III summoning spells. They have massive strength but at time they come, they are facing well promoted units with first strikes and other promotions so 4 of them (and that's assuming you have 4 archmages and all in same place) won't make a difference.
Buff spells are generally ok. They are Level I and II spells but again - you either want them to be casted in town once, or want them to to be casted every turn by adept in your stack. In both cases giving you mage more spells won't make a difference, as they can only cast one spell per turn, so if you want both blur and haste, you still need two of them.
Direct damage spells are nightmare when balancing. Ask anyone who played against AV Ritualists (worst case, as they are mass-buildable) - if they have chance to cast spells before combat they gain huge advantage. Direct damage spells (and ranged units) are what makes commando and mobility so important in MP as they give you chance to attack before they cast spells. For example, elves with their Air II mages and archers will annihilate any stack of similar size without any causalities. Lowering damage dealt won't make a difference (they can simply use more mages) and lowering damage cap is quite opposite to what you want to do. Maybe Level II spells (mass-buildable) should only affect one unit, deal moderate damage and possibly apply some negative promotion (for example, Light II spell - Searing Light, 25% damage with 50% cap to one unit, more to undead, applies blinded to this single unit). Spells that deal damage to many units would be limited to Level III, so you can't just spam them. If only targeting with spell was possible...

II & III grade of magic school provide more than one spell

In this case, you will need some new II & III Level spells

spells redistributed, no more summoning or damaging schools...

Great With 5 spells in every school it's possible that there is at least one summoning and one damaging spell in every school

some spells require more than one magic school

Be careful with this one - if there are few spells requiring 2+ schools and they are powerful, it actually limits players options, as they are forced to train their mages in, for example Light+Fire as this gives them extra spell while Light+Water doesn't.

mastery promotions - enhancing duration of specified promotions and granting extra promotions to specified summons (i.e. elemental mastery enhancing elemental schools buffs & elementals)

There is Arcane Mastery mod and while it's not perfect it might be worth looking at
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=324171

About schools - sounds good, after you decide which spells go where this could be discussed further BTW, by religion sphere you mean that religions are getting more spells ? Priests are already better than mages

And one more thing - Arcane trait, it could use some boost. It used to give free promotion to arcane units some time ago. Don't know why it was removed in first place but while it could be too powerful for base FfH, but in Orbis it might be ok.

 

[Ahwaric]

I think that if I make particular spell schools more versatile and add special promotions that enhance spells or the unit itself, arcane unit will be more powerfull.

Regarding buffs, with masteries you will be able to enhance duration of spells. So spell that usually has to be cast every time, will have duration of 3 and you will be able to cast other spells. Not sure what to do with spell automation in that case (should it renew duration every turn or wait till the spell expire?)

By religious spells I mean that spell scholls are in fact connected to one religion. I do not think I will give priests more spells, just separate the two. Well, some shadow spells might end as esus specials, but that is all.

In general, that will require reviewing what spells every unit can cast.

Regarding mana types, I started with Might & Magic 7 spell schools. There are 4 elements, body, mind, spirit, light & dark. Chaos & law seem like oposite and interesting axis, and I quite like nature. But it might be even better to just stick to above mentioned 9 schools.
Metamagic will not have unique mana, instead it will require sorcery tech and some arcane experience (i.e. another school at advanced level)
Body is a fine school if we want to provide healing (and darker things) for evil players. Also, it might be good for agnostic players... Dao and their body magic (= acupuncture )

This is mostly a brainstorming thread, new spell system will come after 1.0 It is a lot of work and I want to finally release 1.0 at the end of the week.

 

[esvath]

My 2 cent on additional spells, hope you like it.

These spells are in my (personal) modmod, so they are tested, working fine and no bugs that I've encountered so far. Why did it not become a modmod(mod)? Well, I guess I am too lazy to zip and upload it in the forum.

[B]Order Highpriest : Become Patriarch[/B]
	* Highest LVL Order Highpriest
	* PROMOTION_PATRIARCH
		> +2 Holy
		> Immune to Capture
		> Enable : [B]Call Holy War[/B] (spell)
				o peace amongst all-Order nations
				o war between all-Order nations with current caster-owner's enemies
				o kills the patriarch
	* Modification from FFH 0.23 
	
[B]Empyrean Highpriest : Tower of Sun[/B] 
	* +25% science, +25% culture
	* +2xp per units created in the city.
	* Pass PROMOTION_ENLIGHTED
		* +1 XP per turn
		* 100% expire (thus units have to be in city to get Enlighted)
	* Building req caster (thus "Settling the Highpriest")
	* Graphic : Tower of Wisdom
[B]
Kilmorph Highpriest : Bounty of Kilmorph[/B]
	* Transmute Gold <--> Copper when casted in Gold/Copper
	* +1% per caster level chance to discover resources when casted in hills without bonus.
	* +1% per Earth Mana chance to discover resources when casted in hills without bonus.
	* Minimum discovery chance per cast : 10%
	* Maximum discovery chance per cast : 90%
[B]
Leaves Highpriest : Forest Fury[/B]
	* Require : standing in Forest/Ancient Forest
	* Range : 2
	* 20-80% poison damage for units in range+standing in Forest/Ancient Forest tile
	* 20% chance to poison units.
	* 10% chance to created Treants (duration : 1) in Forest/Ancient Forest in range. 
[B]
Overlords Priest : Hideous Dream[/B]
	* Does 10-30% Unholy damage
	* Pass PROMOTION_DESPERATION
		> -10% combat
		> AiControl
		> Dispellable
		> ExpireChance : 30%
	* Remove PROMOTION_COURAGE (but not PROMOTION_COURAGE_PALADIN)
	* Immune team, immune neutral, immune not alive
	* Resistable
	* Range : 1
[B]
Overlords Highpriest : Ward of Terror[/B]
	* Range : 2
	* Push enemies
	* PROMOTION_TERROR
		> cause fear
		> immune to fear
		> Pyperturn push enemies
		> Removed by combat, removed by casting

PS : the OO spells more-or-less are in tune with your current concept of OO, eventhough I modmod(mod) them a while ago. That's why I like your new OO concept much :goodjob:

[B]Esus : none
[/B][B]
Veil Highpriest : Despair[/B]
	* Drain XP from victims (caster level - target level), min : 5 XP.
	* Halves XP drain for Heroes.
	* Damage per XP drained, damage cap : 50%.
	* 1% per (caster level - target level) to delete a promotion, halves for Heroes.
	* Doesn't delete Channeling 1-3 and Hero (that would be too much despair :lol:).
[B]
Fire 3 : Inferno[/B]
	* Calculate a best tiles in 2-tile (like Pillar of Fire)
	* Does damage to all units on the best tile and the surrounding tiles.
	* Damage : 20%, cap 50%, fire.
	* Effect : Fire Breath Explode
[B]
Earth 3 : Stone Avatar[/B]
	* Promotion : Stone Avatar 
		> 25% Collateral Damage
		> 25% Collateral Damage Protection
		> +1 Earth Affinity 
		> removed after combat, removed after casting
	* pass on combat : PROMOTION_SHATTERED (-20% combat, removed when healed)
[B]
Air 3 : Fly[/B]
	* Promotion : Fly (100% expire)
[B]
Water 3 : Torrent[/B]
	* Cast Tsunami (OO Priest old spell)
	* Castable if pPlot.isAdjacentToWater() OR pPlot.isRiverSide()
	[B]
Sun 3 : Searing Heat[/B]
	* 30% to 60% damage, holy, best tile
		> 60% to 90% damage, holy, to vampires
	* 20% chance to PARALYZE
		> 40% chance to Vampires
	[B]
Spirit 3 : Spirit Barrier[/B]
	* Create improvement, artmodel : ring of carcer
		> Py model : necrototem (fear on enemy units at war with caster's player)
		> Dispellable by any friendly units inside the Barrier
	* Create promotion : HOLD BARRIER
		> buff caster only
		> held caster
		> prereq for spell : remove barrier (destroy improvement, remove promotion HOLD BARRIER, castable by unit in-stack with caster)
	* If caster is killed, the improvement remains but has no fear effect. Any units can dispel it then.
[B]
Mind 3 : Feeblemind[/B]
	* Pass PROMOTION_FEEBLEMIND
		> Prereq for SPELL_SILENCED (a spell dummy to remove casting ability)
			o PyReq : reqSilenced(Caster)
			o caster.setHasCasted(True)
		> Dispellable
		> Resist Magic : -50
	* Remove PROMOTION_SPELLSTAFF
	* Resistable, Range : 2
	* Immune Team, Immune Neutral
	* Resistable, Resist Modify : -10
[B]
Law 3 : Summon High Angel[/B]
	* Summon random Seraph, Angel of Death, Ophanim, Herald, Repentant Angel
	* Setduration (2)
[B]
Life 3 : Summon Lifespark[/B]
	* Create UNIT_LIFESPARK (invisible, elemental, flying, move : 2, permanent summon)
	* Prereq for SPELL_TAP_LIFESPARK
		> Castable by living OR angelic friendly units
		> Heal the unit
		> Remove Feeblemind, Poisoned, Withered
		> Kill the Lifespark
	[B]
Enchantment 3 : Create Artifact[/B]
	* Create random artifact (20% chance to create minor artifacts, 10% miscast lost Ench III, 70% nothing)
[B]
Nature 3 : Summon Guardian Vine[/B]
	* Create UNIT_GUARDIAN_VINES
		> UnitCombat : Beast, Permanent
		> 0 moves, 8 strength + 2 poison
		> Promotions : Defensive, Guardman, Poison Resistance
		> Promotion from combat : PROMOTION_HASTED
		> Py postCombatWon : heal50
[B]
Body 3 : Shockwave[/B]
	* Damage 10% up to 50%, physical, 1-tile
	* Push enemy units
	* Radius 1 tile
	* Immune Team, Immune Neutral
[B]
Shadow 3 : Shadow Cloak[/B]
	* Add Promotion : Hidden
	* Buff caster only
[B]
Death 3 : Lichdom[/B]
[B]
Entropy 3 : Summon Greater Demon[/B]
	* Summon random Balor, Horned Dread (Infernal Phalanx UU, cause fear), Soul Hunter (Infernal Beastmaster UU, created manes from combat), Death Knight, Ira
	* Setduration (2)
[B]
Chaos 3 : Incite Mob[/B]
	* Promotion MOB 
		> AI Control
		> +20% combat strength
		> -20% combat def
		> blitz
		> +1 move
		> 30% barbarian chance
		> 30% expire chance
		> immune to fear
	* Remove promotions : Loyalty, Courage
	* Friendly units only, immune not alive
[B]
Metamagic 3 : Advanced Summon[/B]
	* Req promotions OR : Air3, Earth3, Fire3, Water3, Shadow3, Sun3
	* Summon random Air/Fire/Earth/Water/Aurealis/Mistform
		> Summoned unit based on caster promotions (so with Air3 and Sun3 it's Air Elemental or Aurealis)
		> Summoned unit starts with its respective magic promotion (Air2 for Air Elemental...)
		> Summoned unit starts with GREATER_SUMMON
			o Combat : +20%
			o Move : +1
			o Immune to Banishment
		> Setduration (2)	
[B]
Metamagic 3 : Banishment[/B]
	* Destroy any hostile summons in 2 radius instantly
	* Will not work on unit with Greater Summon promotion

 

[arstal]

I like this idea.

 

[Imuratep]

Perhaps the D&D spell types can help at designing new ones:
Invocation
Necromancy
Evocations
Abjurations
Illusion
Transmutation
Enchantment
Divination

 

[civ_king]

Perhaps the D&D spell types can help at designing new ones:
Invocation
Necromancy
Evocations
Abjurations
Illusion
Transmutation
Enchantment
Divination

I cast magic missile

 

[AvataroftheAnge]

i really like everything you said tbh. I love orbis... and cant wait for the next version!

 

[Dominicius]

Casters need to waste their promotions on magic. This causes them to be weaker while units who spend their promotions on combat lines are usually stronger than even tier two summons.

Here is an idea how this can be solved: Magic promotions now give combat bonuses.

For instance if a mage takes Air1 and Air2 then he and all his summons receive 2 extra first strikes. If he takes fire1, fire2 and fire3 then he gets 10% combat str for the first two and an extra +1 fire damage for the last one.

This way mages can take magic promotions without being overshadowed by other units.

 

[Ahwaric]

Perhaps the D&D spell types can help at designing new ones:
Invocation
Necromancy
Evocations
Abjurations
Illusion
Transmutation
Enchantment
Divination

I considered that. There are two magic schools models. Either relating to object they alter (fire, body etc.) - the system we (mostly) use now. Or how it manipulates (transmutation, summoning) - the D&D system.

I like both approaches, but the second one has one big drawback - all spells from one school are simillar. If it is evocation/destruction, you can expect damaging spells, if it is transmutation/alteration, the school consists of buffs/debuffs, and if it is conjuration/summoning... you already know. Some schools are simillar though (enchantment is more or less equal to mind).

That is fine, but I want schools to offer a variety of spells, so M&M system is better.

i really like everything you said tbh. I love orbis... and cant wait for the next version!

Please note that new spell system won't be in 1.0, I will add it later (1.01 perhaps?). It is a lot of work and I do mostly finishing touches now - some art here, some tweaks here. Plus civics need some more work.
All to get 1.0 out before weekend.

Casters need to waste their promotions on magic. This causes them to be weaker while units who spend their promotions on combat lines are usually stronger than even tier two summons.
Here is an idea how this can be solved: Magic promotions now give combat bonuses.

The idea behind the proposed changes is exactly that - casters will take less spell promotions as there will be more spells linked to one promotion. Also, it will make it easier to give some combat bonuses to spell promotions. It is easier to find nice and unique bonus for 12 schools than for 21 after all.
But I want to add some special promotions - so you can first take i.e. air & water promotions, and then further specialize your caster to be either summoner, buffer or combat mage. That is purpose of planned mastery promotions. SO, buffer will be able to cast the same amount of buffs, but these will last longer or be more powerfull. Summoner will enhance his summons. And combat mage will do more damage with his spells. I might even make these promotions exclusive, so you will not be able to make your unit buffer & destructor at once.

 

[Dominicius]

As long as casters do end up more balance, I have no problems with your chosen path.

Currently, casters require a far greater investment in both time and money to make them useful (compare for instance to RoF casting ritualists). If we are keeping these investments the same in the next version then the power of arcane units needs to increase.

 

[Calavente]

I like this idea :
on the same trend :
some mana spheres do not give damage spell or invocation but more buffs or automated actions :

like :
-sun III gives blinding aura : attacking/attacked stack is automatically blinded as the actual
sunII spell, but without using any spell "turn".
-Metamagic II removes the equivalence between spell and action : can spell after attacking and vice-versa (if you have not already used your attack and spell).
-Metamagic III allows for 2 spells per turn every turn,
-Spellstaff (EnchantIII) allowing for another spell when used (less powerful than Metamagic III), but Spellstaff is an object : can be given to any unit for the ability to launch a new spell.

-ForceII gives a spell : Body Hardening : body "sensibility" + force "sensibility" + earth "sensibility" to the caster: (+1attack for having body mana, +1attack for having force mana, +1attack for having earth mana)(20% chance wearing off)
-ForceIII gives a passive action : 10% chance/turn getting body mana affinity (30% chance wearing off) +10% chance/turn getting earth mana affinity (30% chance wearing off) +30% chances/turn getting force affinity (30% chance wearing off). ==> it is a buffer spell, automated, and totally hasardous;

combinated spell/Actions :
-Fire III + earth III allows for "Iron skin" spell : +1 iron affinity (30% chance wearing off).
-MindII + chaosII gives a passive action : +1-5first strikes given automatically to the caster after each combat, until next combat : the value changes after each combat action. (Each combat gives a promotion : +1FS or +2Fs...Etc, that is "until next combat" as with "stoneskin". But each combat triggers the re-attribution of one new promotion of the kind). So you defend against the first assasin with 3 first strikes and against the second with only 1 first strike...etc (or maybe give this to Chaos II so Chaos II doesn't allows for a spell, but only enables such a passive ability)

-Force I + Water I : gives +5% chance doing 5% damage to attacking unit (ice damage) (defensive strike)...etc
-Air III + Fire II : gives +5 ranged damage (as if it was an archery unit)
etc...

Those ideas are not ones I would like to see but I thought the reasonning behind would allow for some flexibility, more use for the Casters, more than one mana-promotion may be of use at any time for the caster.

my 0.2

 

[Kalina]

I like this idea :
on the same trend :
some mana spheres do not give damage spell or invocation but more buffs or automated actions :

I really, really love it Altering economy of actions, along with more versatility and buff enchantments Ahwaric mentioned before makes arcane spellcasters more interesting and powerful. In this case, archmage (8 promos) can have 2 full spheres (5 spells each, so 10 spells), 2-4 passive abilities and ability to cast up to 2-3 spells . Sounds like reasonable return on your science and time investment. Maybe even all Archmages should be able to cast 2 spells per round ? This way, you can make them more powerful without increasing power of spells.

 

[moshi]

i don't mean to rain to the parade, but the AI currently can't do the most simple magic-related things (like cast 'rust,' for instance) and seems to enjoy letting their mages wander around the battlefield unprotected. the proposed changes sound great but i think that fixing what's broken with the current system should be a priority: the more new features get added without corresponding enhancements to the AI, the further behind it lags and the less challenging and fun a single-player game becomes...

 

[Kalina]

I assume most spells won't change so it AI is as likely to use them in new system as in old (so usually not using at all ;>). In fact, passive abilities may even improve AI arcane units you they would work always.

 

[Calavente]

exactly. it was one of my ideas with the second one being that thus some mana promotion are "activated/in use" at all times only when a spell is "launched".

there are 3 difficulties in that :
-not replacing standard promotion (not same effects : eg : If airII have the same effect as cover II", it would make sense to allow coverII for arcane and remove the air I promotion instead of creating "promotion doubles", thus such an effect only makes sens if arcane units can already get coverII, airII being stackable with it.)
-having a "magical" effect (as previous point it would generaly be "bland" to give mundane effects to mana-promotions ), either as a bonus or a magical automated effect.
-some mana-line should not become another "spell-enhancement" line. there already exists some generic spell boosting promotion. Those seems to be better if they are mostly not linked to a mana-line. (may be an exception for the metamagic line)

You would the have the choice for 6 kind of action for mana-promotions :
-permanent spell (poison blade, water walking) (effect on many turns)
-semi-permanent spell : long effect, but disappear after a fairly common even (mindI, spiritI, orderIII if the caster moves, rust if the ennemy has a forge in the city, +stoneskin / invisibility : removed after combat ..Etc)
-instant spell (buffer/summon/damage...Etc) : the mana promotion has an use only during the turn you use the spell.
-passive ability : to be created (as I proposed : automated magical effect, effect not possible with standard promotion)
-effect gain some promotion/ability...Etc (air I gives same effect as cover, stackable with coverII (only if arcane can already get coverII ; force II same effect than combatII : stackable with the combat line, allowing for an effective "combatVI")
-cross with another mana promotion : fireI+airI allows for a new "spell/passive ability/effect"...Etc

4th difficulty:
-not having all mana -promotion giving a spell and an effect : it would then only be a "compensation". it should only be here to : balance things out, strengthen some spheres, allow the AI to make use of at least some of the mana-promotions. So for most of the mana-promotion, a passive ability/effect should be scalled to the level + be instead of a spell.

some mana lines could have a weak spell for a given level but have a passive effect or having some cross between this level and another line/level available....etc

my 0.2
PS : I'm reading, I'm reading... progressing in comprehension : maybe my next FFH game will be Orbis..

 

[Calavente]

I've got another idea but I don't know if it is easily "python-able".

Add a "spell counter (sc)" to each arcane / disciple unit (or any unit with chaneling promotions)
chaneling I give 1sc
chaneling II gives +1sc
chaneling III gives +2sc
spellstaff (enchant III) give +2sc.

each spell has a "cost"
lvl 1 spell : -1sc
lvl 2 spell : -2sc
lvl 3 spell : -3sc
so :
adept can launche 1spell (with spellstaff : 3xlvl1 spells)
mage can launch 1lvl2spell or 2 lvl1 spells (with spellstaff : 2xlvl2spell or 4xlvl1 spells or 1xlvl2+1xlvl1 : doubling the number of spells)
archmage can launch (1lvl 3 +1lvl 1 spell) or 2xlvl2 spells, or 4xlvl 1spells. (with spellstaff : 2xlvl3spells, or 3xlvl2 spells or 6x lvl1spells)
justification : invoquing an air elemental takes much more time than casting firballs that takes more time than casting a lvl 1spell.

two issues :
priests spells : they only have chanelling II and not chanelling I so they would only get 1sc : not enough for lvl 3 spells : maybe giving them chanelling I .. and creating some lvl1 religious spells ?
amurites and all units with spells but not chanelling...

my 0.2.

I've gotta go, I'll continue to think on that later.

It is an evidence that those "sc" points are counted as movement is : i.E. its value is re-initialised at the beginning of each turn