Rewritten RoM Civics

[Afforess]

I've had this idea for a long time now, but I finally have the actual experience to start it.

The term civic is used incorrectly in Civilization 4 and RoM. Wikipedia defines Civics as:

Civics is the study of rights and duties of citizenship; The study of government with particular attention given to the role of citizens― as opposed to external factors― in the operation and oversight of government.

This is not how civics are now. They are vague categories, loosely based off of Vanilla Civ4. I disagree with civics wholeheartedly. I plan to change them into Departments or Ministries (I'll have two versions, Departments for America, Ministries for Europe.) These departments (or ministries) will have many more categories than current civics and will control much more of your government. Some of the existing civics will only be tweaked, others completely rewritten.

Here's my outline for the new departments, I want to gather some ideas and thoughts, and see if there are any major issues.

Also, I would probably keep most of generalstaff's civic buildings, but change them to fit these civics.

 

[civ_king]

Impressive, I like it!

 

[Earlydawn]

I'm a huge fan of this level of granularity and specificity. Some comments as I go through it again:

• You seem to be increasing the number of civics that jack up city maintenance across the board. Like it, since I never really felt like I had to worry about it too much.
• If you're doing this many civics, you've gotta put in some kind of window where it will show a stacking summary of changes to your civ. I'm not a math guy at all, so that would make this playable for me.
• I'd also like to see more "flavor" advantages. Herbalism, for example, could give a bigger health bonus from forests. MAD gives an extra bonus to nuke production, etc.
• I feel like a lot of the start-of-game civics are going to have a pretty drastic effect on stability vis a vi the Rebellion mod. Seems intentional - either play a tyrant, or have a shaky beginning? I like it, but it might put off new players.
• Monopolism - Do you intend for it to literally have *no* trade routes?
• Militia is a good step towards a non-professional or reserve-centric force. I would cut the great general bonus from 50% to 25% (civilian forces generally lack strong centralized leadership). Also, does the distance cost refer to cities or military units? If cities, I would lean towards units instead, representing the lack of robust logistical framework for offensive fighting.
• I'd support Mutually Assured Destruction as the "doomsday" military civic, with much higher production and astronomical upkeep - Cold War-level forces were not sustainable.
• Propaganda and Mind Control seem backwards to me, insofar as upkeep. Propaganda isn't nation-breakingly expensive to maintain, whereas Cybernetic mind control would likely require a massive computer network, regular maintenance, etc.
• Landfills seem like they should carry an environmental impact. Planning on tying it into the NIMBY module?
• Finally, and most importantly; so many categories means frequent opportunity for new civics and consequently, anarchy. I'd personally divide your list into Primary and Secondary categories. Core areas like Executive, Legislative, or Economic should cause anarchy as usual when swapped. Smaller issues like Sanitation, Borders, or Energy should not.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

• Finally, and most importantly; so many categories means frequent opportunity for new civics and consequently, anarchy. I'd personally divide your list into Primary and Secondary categories. Core areas like Executive, Legislative, or Economic should cause anarchy as usual when swapped. Smaller issues like Sanitation, Borders, or Energy should not.

I concur

 

[Hydromancerx]

I totally support this. The civic categories we have now even with the supplements are just not enough to represent them in the real world. This "department system" is SOOOOOOOO much better!

 

[Blackflag421]

You already know my opinion on your civics

I do agree some flavor benefits to the civics would be neat

 

[Snofru1]

Excellent, excellent, Afforess you are the !

[*]If you're doing this many civics, you've gotta put in some kind of window where it will show a stacking summary of changes to your civ. I'm not a math guy at all, so that would make this playable for me.

I think this would be crucial and I would really appreciate to have this already in "vanilla" ROM...

 

[szemek77]

Fully support the idea, not ready yet to discuss the details of proposed civics, but want to add just couple of thoughts:

1. Anarchy would be an issue. In my opinion the whole concept of anarchy is bad. I would like to see rather some slowdown (4-6 turns) than 2-3 anarchy. But if we keep the anarchy idea, I would support the idea that only some changes cause it.

2. The required periods between changes should be lenghten. Or by force (forbidden) or by penalty. For example, if you would like to change your civic just couple of turns after last change, it should cost you longer anarchy/slowdown period than if you wait i.e. 20 turns.

3. There is a funny thing in current RoM civics - you can choose free enterprise as an ideology, while having feudal, communism, vassalage, intolerant, slavery and so on as "main" civics. I think there should be some dependance between civics you can have at the same moment. And again - or by force, or by penalties. Even though Afforess doesn't offer "ideology", I think the corelation between your choices in particular departments should be considered.

 

[Nightguard]

Very interesting concept, but I have two questions.

1. With so many of your department policies causing slowdown to city growth, won't there be some issues with how long it takes for your cities to grow in the early game, especially with the changes to growth rates already implemented in the core RoM gameplay by Zappara?

2. Will you (or General Strategy) be redoing all of the civic-dependant buildings if/when you work on the development of this particular mod component? This in particular makes the modular aspect of your install a bit trickier, as some players may want to keep the old civics, and thus want the old civic-dependant buildings, while others may want to play with your new departments, and would probably like to see a similar set of buildings with your departments.

Mind you, these aren't criticisms of the concept. I like the idea of having some more specific departments, especially uncoupling the issue of slavery from the economic systems. I'm just considering some of the implementation aspects of such a sweeping change to the civics system.

 

[Madd_Mugsy]

Agree w/EarlyDawn.

I'm not sure how being stuck with -2 health, -1/-2 happiness and a 25% growth penalty right at the start will play out... Nor am I certain that the AI would cope well with this.

It's an interesting idea, but I suggest lots of play testing

 

[Afforess]

I'm a huge fan of this level of granularity and specificity. Some comments as I go through it again:

• You seem to be increasing the number of civics that jack up city maintenance across the board. Like it, since I never really felt like I had to worry about it too much.

I plan on rewriting the different levels of upkeep for civics, since their will be a lot more. However, lots of play testing will be required before they will be perfect.

• If you're doing this many civics, you've gotta put in some kind of window where it will show a stacking summary of changes to your civ. I'm not a math guy at all, so that would make this playable for me.

I've made "nudges" to EmperorFool (For those not in "the know", he is a lead member of the BUG/BULL mod), to add this for some time know. He's expressed concern that this would be a big effort, and require a lot of work. It may happen, but I can't make promises.

• I'd also like to see more "flavor" advantages. Herbalism, for example, could give a bigger health bonus from forests. MAD gives an extra bonus to nuke production, etc.

I made this list before I made a lot of new modifiers for civics. I will definitly make another pass through it and add more features, eventually, but if there are particular things you want, I urge you to check my guide to modding and look at the extra civic tags I've added and we can use too.

• I feel like a lot of the start-of-game civics are going to have a pretty drastic effect on stability vis a vi the Rebellion mod. Seems intentional - either play a tyrant, or have a shaky beginning? I like it, but it might put off new players.

Historically, Democracies did poorly, at least until the advent of much better communication methods. So, it's possible to run an early democracy, but you won't get much bigger than a city state.

As for scaring off users, I never "force" features on the user.

• Monopolism - Do you intend for it to literally have *no* trade routes?

Uh... No. That was a typo, I meant no foreign trade.

• Militia is a good step towards a non-professional or reserve-centric force. I would cut the great general bonus from 50% to 25% (civilian forces generally lack strong centralized leadership). Also, does the distance cost refer to cities or military units? If cities, I would lean towards units instead, representing the lack of robust logistical framework for offensive fighting.

There is no modifier for distance cost towards units, cities will have to do...

• I'd support Mutually Assured Destruction as the "doomsday" military civic, with much higher production and astronomical upkeep - Cold War-level forces were not sustainable.

See if you like my tweaks.

• Propaganda and Mind Control seem backwards to me, insofar as upkeep. Propaganda isn't nation-breakingly expensive to maintain, whereas Cybernetic mind control would likely require a massive computer network, regular maintenance, etc.

Updated.

• Landfills seem like they should carry an environmental impact. Planning on tying it into the NIMBY module?

Perhaps. I haven't yet worked individual buildings in yet...

• Finally, and most importantly; so many categories means frequent opportunity for new civics and consequently, anarchy. I'd personally divide your list into Primary and Secondary categories. Core areas like Executive, Legislative, or Economic should cause anarchy as usual when swapped. Smaller issues like Sanitation, Borders, or Energy should not.

I can do this too.

2. The required periods between changes should be lenghten. Or by force (forbidden) or by penalty. For example, if you would like to change your civic just couple of turns after last change, it should cost you longer anarchy/slowdown period than if you wait i.e. 20 turns.

Hmm... Not sure I agree here. If anything, changing civics rapidly should be easier than waiting, as the ideas have not yet taken root in your society.

3. There is a funny thing in current RoM civics - you can choose free enterprise as an ideology, while having feudal, communism, vassalage, intolerant, slavery and so on as "main" civics. I think there should be some dependance between civics you can have at the same moment. And again - or by force, or by penalties. Even though Afforess doesn't offer "ideology", I think the corelation between your choices in particular departments should be considered.

Which is why I made some civics "Require" other civics too.

Very interesting concept, but I have two questions.

1. With so many of your department policies causing slowdown to city growth, won't there be some issues with how long it takes for your cities to grow in the early game, especially with the changes to growth rates already implemented in the core RoM gameplay by Zappara?

Yes, but Early growth historically was very slow to begin with.

2. Will you (or General Strategy) be redoing all of the civic-dependant buildings if/when you work on the development of this particular mod component? This in particular makes the modular aspect of your install a bit trickier, as some players may want to keep the old civics, and thus want the old civic-dependant buildings, while others may want to play with your new departments, and would probably like to see a similar set of buildings with your departments.

Yeah, this will happen once I am happy with the civics though.

Agree w/EarlyDawn.

I'm not sure if I'd like to be stuck with -2 health, -1/-2 happiness and a 25% growth penalty right at the start... Nor am I certain that the AI would cope well with this.

It shouldn't be a huge issue, as cities will grow so much slower to start with, so you won't be hitting that cap fast.

 

[xartah]

The starting civics are really going to slow down growth. 2 unhealthy and either 2 unhappy and 45% slower city growth or 1 unhappy and 55% slower city growth along with units produced with food is really nasty.

Department of justice. Is this civic about how trials are handled?
Wouldn't it be better to call vigilantism none? Vigilantism/mob rule are hardly things that a nation would officially enact since they are phenomena that arise from an inability to enforce laws.
Common law doesn't really fit in here. It is more about how laws are developed than about trials. It is by no means mutually exclusive to an adversarial or inquisitorial system. Why does inquisitorial law cause so much unhappiness and why is it so militant? Is it supposed to be some kind of religious inquisition rather than an inquisitorial system?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Wouldn't it be better to call vigilantism none? Vigilantism/mob rule are hardly things that a nation would officially enact since they are phenomena that arise from an inability to enforce laws.

isn't "public opinion" = a "civilised" vigilantism

Now I have Ophenbach's Orpeous in the Underworld going through my head....

 

[Earlydawn]

I like the changes. I'd still like to see a little more flavor in the mundane categories. What I loved about the vanilla civics (and I feel has been lost in RoM) was how each civic fairly radically changed the way the game played. I'd like to see that recaptured. As an off-the-cuff example, how about increased electrical production by plants in towns with landfills, if you're running Waste to Energy? Waste to Sea could increase the maintenance costs of fishing boats. Things like that. I find it very difficult to remember which civic is which without little substantive changes like that.

The changes to the DoD policies are good. I still wish there were a way to increase the cost of foreign-deployed troops, though. Is there a way to do it in a blanket method? The cost doesn't need to go up as distance increases, just whenever they're not home. Alternatively, could a unit distance to capital penalty work? Or how about slower unit repair when not in national territory? Any of these would work. I don't think a city distance penalty makes sense, though. If anything, national costs would be lower since each territory's defense is organized and supplied at the local level. Also, I would change the Great General appearance bonus to only apply in friendly cultural territory, reinforcing the idea of a home army.

Private Ownership in the Department of Housing seems a little too good to be true. It's pretty easy to off-set a -1 Healthiness penalty, even on a per-city basis. Off the top of my head, I'd probably recommend an Espionage penalty - less government eyes across the territory.

For healthcare, it'd be neat to see Herbalism give extra health bonuses to natural resources like Tea, which have health benefits. That would keep it a semi-viable Policy late-game, if you're a heavily agricultural region. Also, I can't say I agree with the science bonus for socialized healthcare. I've never seen any compelling evidence that a state-run health system encourages innovation. I like the health bonus to courthouses under subsidized healthcare.

Energy looks fine. If it's not already in, I'd like to see a solar panel terrain enhancement that gets bonuses on hills & mountains, and obviously for green energy, but that's a different story.

Education is looking good, too. On one hand, I'd like to see Propaganda + Broadcast Tower give a city defense bonus, or free Garrison upgrade for units, but that might make it a bit too good.

Economics looks like one of the most solid lists so far. Consider giving monopolism a slight science penalty (-5%) if it needs another disadvantage. Less competition means less innovation.

Agriculture looks close to perfect. Privatized agriculture might need a penalty. Make it cost money to build farms? I don't know.

Religion - Does "War Unhappiness" refer to war weariness, or something else? Also, Freedom of Religion; there's a reference to state religion, which is an error, unless I'm mistaken.

Legislative also looks good, although I think Communism may be towing a few too many requirements with it. I would probably cut it down to Command Economy, Socialized Healthcare, State-Owned Land, and Centralized Labor The Soviet Union had a reasonably influential parliament for a good chunk of its existence (the Duma). I'd also suggest requiring one of the three power-oriented education choices - Military Education, Propaganda, or Mind Control, and offering a choice between Inquisitorial Law (the USSR) or Pervasive Security (North Korea, and to an extent, China).

Looking good, though, I'm very excited.

 

[Afforess]

I like the changes. I'd still like to see a little more flavor in the mundane categories. What I loved about the vanilla civics (and I feel has been lost in RoM) was how each civic fairly radically changed the way the game played. I'd like to see that recaptured. As an off-the-cuff example, how about increased electrical production by plants in towns with landfills, if you're running Waste to Energy? Waste to Sea could increase the maintenance costs of fishing boats. Things like that. I find it very difficult to remember which civic is which without little substantive changes like that.

It's idea's like this that I love.

Okay, what about one less commerce for fishing tiles with Waste to Sea?

The changes to the DoD policies are good. I still wish there were a way to increase the cost of foreign-deployed troops, though. Is there a way to do it in a blanket method? The cost doesn't need to go up as distance increases, just whenever they're not home. Alternatively, could a unit distance to capital penalty work? Or how about slower unit repair when not in national territory? Any of these would work. I don't think a city distance penalty makes sense, though.

Yes, I can add this. Which civics specifically did you want to have this modifier?

Private Ownership in the Department of Housing seems a little too good to be true. It's pretty easy to off-set a -1 Healthiness penalty, even on a per-city basis. Off the top of my head, I'd probably recommend an Espionage penalty - less government eyes across the territory.

Done.

For healthcare, it'd be neat to see Herbalism give extra health bonuses to natural resources like Tea, which have health benefits. That would keep it a semi-viable Policy late-game, if you're a heavily agricultural region. Also, I can't say I agree with the science bonus for socialized healthcare. I've never seen any compelling evidence that a state-run health system encourages innovation. I like the health bonus to courthouses under subsidized healthcare.

Education is looking good, too. On one hand, I'd like to see Propaganda + Broadcast Tower give a city defense bonus, or free Garrison upgrade for units, but that might make it a bit too good.

I gave it a 25% defense bonus. Figured that would be easiest.

Economics looks like one of the most solid lists so far. Consider giving monopolism a slight science penalty (-5%) if it needs another disadvantage. Less competition means less innovation.

I'm loath to do that since so many players here have an irrational fear of science penalties.

Agriculture looks close to perfect. Privatized agriculture might need a penalty. Make it cost money to build farms? I don't know.

I just tweaked all the agricultural civics, so that players won't experience massive starvation switching from civics. I used city growth instead of food.

Religion - Does "War Unhappiness" refer to war weariness, or something else? Also, Freedom of Religion; there's a reference to state religion, which is an error, unless I'm mistaken.

Oops, yeah.

Legislative also looks good, although I think Communism may be towing a few too many requirements with it. I would probably cut it down to Command Economy, Socialized Healthcare, State-Owned Land, and Centralized Labor The Soviet Union had a reasonably influential parliament for a good chunk of its existence (the Duma). I'd also suggest requiring one of the three power-oriented education choices - Military Education, Propaganda, or Mind Control, and offering a choice between Inquisitorial Law (the USSR) or Pervasive Security (North Korea, and to an extent, China).

Hmm. Okay.

Just remember, this is all very preliminary, much of this has not been coded.

 

[os79]

I'm loath to do that since so many players here have an irrational fear of science penalties.

Please don't be timid on that precise front. Be timid for other reasons. Be consistent.

Then write a tutorial or a strategy tutorial explaining why a negative science percentage don't necessarily mean the end of the world for players . I learned that lesson by gambling a few civics for a short while and I was doing just dandy. :shrug: Just a basic mathematics, but better to explain it in solid terms somewhere and refer these irrational players to that explanation.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Afforess

In another thread you were complaining about too much bonus to health from the water buildings I was proposing. Perhaps more civics such as Waste could have a bigger unhealthiness. That way health buildings would have more purpose. Perhaps even base it off population.

 

[Afforess]

Good news on this front. I'm churning through SDK changes (See the SDK Component Thread for the list) for new civic modifiers, and everything is going very smoothly.

And of course, the best news of all; anyone who has been following this modmod for some time knows the whole holdup as been the Diplomacy Modifiers for civics. This has been resolved, and is 75% done. It works!

Once that's all done, I can grind away at the XML.

 

[Earlydawn]

It's idea's like this that I love.

Okay, what about one less commerce for fishing tiles with Waste to Sea?

Perfect.

Yes, I can add this. Which civics specifically did you want to have this modifier?

Assuming you can implement any of the three, I'd ideally like to see Militia get a maintenance cost increase when not in cultural territory.

I gave it a 25% defense bonus. Figured that would be easiest.

Cheers.

 

[TechXLtd]

Keynesian Economics

• High Upkeep
• +50% Corporation Costs
• +25% City Maintenance Costs
• +2 Happiness in largest cities
• +2 Healthiness

You probably should also give it a decrease to inflation as well as giving it a small production bonus per citizen (standard only) specialist due to a better management of unemployment. I'd ask if it didn't seem like a lot of trouble but to give a small production boost per tax spending. Maybe 1% per 10% tax rate. In addition to probably balance it out a bit more with those additions to give it a total of +50% City maintenance costs since it would be more ideal to the regulated economy we Keynesians so long to see.

Keynesian Economics

• High Upkeep
• +50% Corporation Costs
• +50% City Maintenance Costs
• +2 Happiness in largest cities
• +2 Healthiness
• -25% Inflation Rate
• +1 Production per Citizen Specialist
• +0.5% Production Rate per 5% Tax Rate
  

* Waste to Energy (Requires: Industrialization)
o Medium Upkeep
o +1 Unhealthiness
o +10% Production

With this one, there should probably be some sort of Global Warming Increase Chance. I'm not sure of the rate but it should be very small per certain industrial buildings/improvements and maybe enable the new W2E building you put in.