RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[dragodon64]

Can anyone please explain to me what the historical basis for an independent Jerusalem faction does exactly? IMO the Crusade function should be radically revamped, with a Kingdom of Jerusalem faction that spawn after the First Crusade is called, with the amount of units that it is given. That would be A LOT more interesting then having Germany, France, Burgundy, Poland, Venice etc... controlling the Levant ahistorically.

A high probability of revolts in Jerusalem means that the crusaders probably won't hold the city for very long, so you won't see something like a French Jerusalem from 1100-1800.

Admittedly the crusade function is not as great as it could be, but I don't think something like crusader kingdoms would fit in RFCE. In SoI, the Catholic homelands aren't on the map, so spawning civs with traits that distinguish them from their Muslim and Orthodox neighbors makes sense. But in the Europeans context, the crusader states were not fully independent of the Catholic countries from where they recruited their soldiers. It makes sense if you imagine it as a personal union, ex: you are the King of France and the King of Jerusalem, which are still two (de jure) indpendent states.

 

[The Turk]

But the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the Principality of Antioch have different families, than their European counterparts. So how does that same logic apply? If you've ever played Medieval 2 Total War or other Civ 4 mods, you'll understand that you can have both in a game easily.

 

[dragodon64]

I have played M2:TW, and it doesn't contain independent crusader states...

 

[The Turk]

I have played M2:TW, and it doesn't contain independent crusader states...

I was referring to mods... and anyway again there is no historical basis for it. Add a more frequent Egyptian respawn or add a Zengid minor state, that would make more sense IMO.

 

[amrod]

I noticed, playing with Portugal, that there's practically no barbarian or any other activity in NE Africa. I only saw one mounted unit, but it didn't dare to attack. There could be some berber raiders etc ... Or when the Cordobans are reborn around Tunis, they could have an urge to attack toward Morocco.

 

[amrod]

Reaching around the end of the tech tree I wondered, what is the use of the Encyclopedia wonder? I also never understood Internet in plain civ4. By that time you have most techs, with only a few left and if you built the wonder you are probably doing well and there's good chance the others are lagging behind.

I was also thinking again about health. All the negative health buildings give a total -7 health. Positive health buildings also give +7. But the hospital is researched only very late (though the textile mill also). Counting the bonuses I had around +15 (with river and coast) for a total of 19..20 without any negative buildings and with all positive except hospital. This would mean if I built the smithy etc. I would have a max population of about 12..13 (unless I have excess food to compensate). Of course, it is true that hygienic conditions were supposedly very bad in medieval and modern age cities. Still, they had smithies, factories and large population... Okay I'm not sure were I'm heading with this just wanted to say (though had earlier already) that health seems to be a bigger problem than happiness. But maybe it's okay, and actually happiness needs to be cut down?

 

[AbsintheRed]

I noticed, playing with Portugal, that there's practically no barbarian or any other activity in NE Africa. I only saw one mounted unit, but it didn't dare to attack. There could be some berber raiders etc ... Or when the Cordobans are reborn around Tunis, they could have an urge to attack toward Morocco.

More barbarian activity is needed there, that's for sure.
Will look into it

Reaching around the end of the tech tree I wondered, what is the use of the Encyclopedia wonder? I also never understood Internet in plain civ4. By that time you have most techs, with only a few left and if you built the wonder you are probably doing well and there's good chance the others are lagging behind.

You are also preventing the other nations from building it, thus defending your own technological advantage
Having said that, maybe it's not a bad idea to move it slightly earlier

I was also thinking again about health. All the negative health buildings give a total -7 health. Positive health buildings also give +7. But the hospital is researched only very late (though the textile mill also). Counting the bonuses I had around +15 (with river and coast) for a total of 19..20 without any negative buildings and with all positive except hospital. This would mean if I built the smithy etc. I would have a max population of about 12..13 (unless I have excess food to compensate). Of course, it is true that hygienic conditions were supposedly very bad in medieval and modern age cities. Still, they had smithies, factories and large population... Okay I'm not sure were I'm heading with this just wanted to say (though had earlier already) that health seems to be a bigger problem than happiness. But maybe it's okay, and actually happiness needs to be cut down?

Health should be low, that's intentional
And yeah, happiness is too easy right now

 

[Hangly Man]

Lithuania question. Just how the heck are you supposed to accumulate 4000 culture points in less than 100 years without using a great artist? The best I can do is less than half that.

It's hard to do anything as Lithuania other than fight off Poles and keep up your stability prior to 1386.

 

[civ_king]

Lithuania question. Just how the heck are you supposed to accumulate 4000 culture points in less than 100 years without using a great artist? The best I can do is less than half that.

It's hard to do anything as Lithuania other than fight off Poles and keep up your stability prior to 1386.

You don't...

 

[amrod]

Okay, a few more..

- I know it's a feature of Civ4; someone good at programming could please tell me, is it possible to change it: even when the city advisors are turned off, when the city grows it often puts the new person into a special person instead of working the fields (even when there would be good fields), and the worst, it puts them into the first available spec, which is Spy (and I don't really want to have great spies). It's somewhat annoying, having to go through my cities once in a while and check what they are doing. It's especially so with cities in which prevent growth is checked, as it tries to avoid producing food (advisor still turned off!), even if the tile would give some needed hammer/commerce.

- I was thinking about my longbowmen having defense bonus in forests... now that's not very realistic I think (unless they are lined up at the edge of the forest). Longbowmen were typically used in the open, launching un-aimed valleys at long distances. Normal archers and crossbowmen might get a chance in a dense forest, but longbowmen? (Hm, I'm not sure about siege engines now, do they have a defense bonus?)

- I think I already might have mentioned it, but noticed again: when I found protestantism, I notice a country changes to protestantism and then immediately back to catholicism in the same turn. I think it shouldn't even be possible, but in any way is a pretty stupid move, considering his cities will often lose catholic religion (though might be a good move if they have free religion, but they don't). I saw Austria once and Hungary once doing this.

 

[Depravo]

... when the city grows it often puts the new person into a special person instead of working the fields (even when there would be good fields), and the worst, it puts them into the first available spec, which is Spy (and I don't really want to have great spies). It's somewhat annoying...

Somewhat annoying? I'd say it was the biggest annoyance remaining in Civ4. There needs to be an 'avoid specialists' switch but of course it's much too late for that.

 

[ezzlar]

As long as the spy specialist was so easy to obtain. Make spy specialist pop at dungeon or something...

 

[AbsintheRed]

Lithuania question. Just how the heck are you supposed to accumulate 4000 culture points in less than 100 years without using a great artist? The best I can do is less than half that.

It's hard to do anything as Lithuania other than fight off Poles and keep up your stability prior to 1386.

You don't...

What would be a manageable number in your opinion?
2000 culture?

 

[AbsintheRed]

Okay, a few more..

- I know it's a feature of Civ4; someone good at programming could please tell me, is it possible to change it: even when the city advisors are turned off, when the city grows it often puts the new person into a special person instead of working the fields (even when there would be good fields), and the worst, it puts them into the first available spec, which is Spy (and I don't really want to have great spies). It's somewhat annoying, having to go through my cities once in a while and check what they are doing. It's especially so with cities in which prevent growth is checked, as it tries to avoid producing food (advisor still turned off!), even if the tile would give some needed hammer/commerce.

Vanilla Civ IV behavior. I never seen any mods without this
Yeah, Firaxis could have added this, but on the other hand, micromanagement is the key of playing civilization well.
Personally I don't mind it that much

- I was thinking about my longbowmen having defense bonus in forests... now that's not very realistic I think (unless they are lined up at the edge of the forest). Longbowmen were typically used in the open, launching un-aimed valleys at long distances. Normal archers and crossbowmen might get a chance in a dense forest, but longbowmen? (Hm, I'm not sure about siege engines now, do they have a defense bonus?)

It's not realistic at all, but I think it's better for gameplay if all archer type units get the usual defense bonus in forests
Also, forest and hill defense bonus is tied together in the game (ignore terrain defenses)
3Miro could probably separate this in the dll, but I don't think it worths the amount of work put into it

- I think I already might have mentioned it, but noticed again: when I found protestantism, I notice a country changes to protestantism and then immediately back to catholicism in the same turn. I think it shouldn't even be possible, but in any way is a pretty stupid move, considering his cities will often lose catholic religion (though might be a good move if they have free religion, but they don't). I saw Austria once and Hungary once doing this.

It's a bug
We should add the usual 5 turns limit for religion changing
(the same thing you have when changing manually in the religion screen)

 

[Sian]

actually ... open question ... what happens if a non-catholic hits Printing press first?

 

[AbsintheRed]

actually ... open question ... what happens if a non-catholic hits Printing press first?

Nothing. At least no Protestantism
It's founded when the first Catholic researchs Printing Press

 

[Hangly Man]

What would be a manageable number in your opinion?
2000 culture?

If you allow great artists it's possible to get 4000 culture just under the wire.

I went straight for education, changed governments to the one that allows unlimited artist specialists and popped a GA on the turn just before the deadline. All the while fighting off Mongols and angry Poles and managing a stability rating averaging around -19. It was pretty tough, took me several tries.

Otherwise the best way to accumulate culture is to build a lot of chapels and monasteries, and that's not terribly Pagan. Or just build culture and that's a drag.

 

[Wessel V1]

A while ago this was discussed too, and I think 2000 is the right number.

 

[Sian]

yeah ... was debated a small month ago ending out argeeing that 2000 sounds reasonable

 

[AbsintheRed]

A while ago this was discussed too, and I think 2000 is the right number.

yeah ... was debated a small month ago ending out argeeing that 2000 sounds reasonable

Oh, somehow we missed to update the svn
Changed it 2000