RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[Chep]

really? I never had that problem. It was always just that I had so few units and either Byzantium or Hungary (or both) were strong and technologically advanced so that they stopped me from fullfilling UHV1, except for 1 case where Byzantium didn't have a 20unit-stack ready to greet me. and the ottomans don't have sulfur (or even horses+iron for knights) in their starting area. so one has to go to Macedonia with the starting units before any bombards or useful infantry units can be build.

 

[Chep]

Anyone got a "fair" savegame for a Dutch start for me? (SVN)

I just waited almost 2 hours and then I got this....
35 highly promoted Austrian units within my territory by 1590 -.-
I didn't even make it to 1600.

BUT I founded protestantism. And not a single colony was build by 1580 Oo

 

[rfcfanatic]

I guess I have a save, but it's Viceroy difficulty and the SVN revision is also quite old (1040 if I'm right).

 

[rfcfanatic]

The problem for AI Ottomans is the incredibly powerful Byzantium. They need a late game nerf.

Or perhaps, the Ottomans would need more starting units? Not just some weakling Macemen, but Knights, Longbowmen and more siege.

While Hadrianopolis (Edirne) was still in the Ottoman flip zone and there wasn't a land connection between Edirne and the Ottoman starting capital, I once had to abandon Edirne while facing a large Byzantine stack of experienced Knights and Bombards and withdraw to Asia through Constantinople.

 

[Chep]

I second the notion of more starting units for the Ottomans. Alternatively the "deserting"-feature should be implemented for the human player as well.

When a new AI civ starts I usually have some of my units desert and join them if I attack them on their territory. This should also be implemented for the late-starting civs like the Ottomans, the Dutch and the Habsburger.
Because there is no way you can survive a stack of doom from one of the greatest empires in your land on turn 5 or something like that.
Yes, it might be exploited but since it only affects the first 10-30 turns and the spawn area I think the advantage outweighs the negatives. (the Ottomans can't just wait 10 turns for the Byzantines to attack them to get a couple of deserters as they have to hurry to meet their conquest goals. The Dutch can't really use an offensive army, and as Austria the main problem currently is getting killed by Germany on start. Everything else is a lot easier.)

I also got the idea for another world wonder!

DoC has the Terracotta Army, which allows you to get unlimited exp from barbs (currently all civs in RFCE have this) and gives the player GG-points from barbs
It would be a really useful wonder for Byzantium, the Arabs and possibly Poland/Kiev/Moscow. (France has also big issues with barbs but at a time when there's no time to build such a wonder).

What do you think? (I can supply suggestions for name+ pre-reqs later, if wanted)
(alternatively that would be a cool UP for the Byzantines "Protector of Civilization" or feature of the Theodisian Wall)

 

[gilgames]

@ezzlar: true expect when Byz get vassalized DDD

@Chep: I meant that tax for monarch, not for emperor, if you want more on emperor games, find Krschtschn he is an expert in emperor.... btw once i tried Germany on emp. and all went well but lost the savegame.

@Ottomans: I suggest to everybody to read again their history, how they rised, and suggest something after it, they were powerfull history showed it well. so how to set this in the game?

 

[Chep]

Hm, okay I take back what I said about Spain, they are more or less fine. I think they could use 1-2 more starting units, now that Cordoba usually is much stronger than before. But that's not urgent.

What would you guys say, I think the Spanish should start with either Blast Furnace (preferred) or Farriers instead of Aristocracy.

My reasoning: Spain needs those (armored) lancers for the reconquista. At the start you can *often* get Farriers from France/Burgundy, if you don't you'll have a hard time in the early conquest.
Spain doesn't need Guisarmiers or the Summer Palace. These are for defence. Spain needs offence.
Not having either of those 2 techs means that you have to try to get it as soon as possible, but once you have both...you usually are amongst the tech-leaders ~1050-1100)

So why not exchange the tech you need later on (to get to knights, to defend against the French coming from the north...) against one that you can use right from the beginning?

 

[AbsintheRed]

I like the GG-points from barbs wonder idea
Same with the warning messages before the Seljuk/Mongol invasion for the human player, it's a nice touch

Also, let's do some minor balancing based on recent feedback
I don't want to do big changes now, but some smaller ones here or there are perfectly fine
For example:
Less barbs in a given area/for a given civ, which civs are over or underpowered compared to their neighbours and to their historical role, small changes in some of the starting units, etc
Let's get everything together in the next few posts of this thread

 

[Mouthwash]

I also think that a whipping mechanism needs to be put back in. Whipping gives you so much flexibility and it feels incredibly restrictive that I can't sacrifice population for production.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I also think that a whipping mechanism needs to be put back in. Whipping gives you so much flexibility and it feels incredibly restrictive that I can't sacrifice population for production.

Slavery/whipping is not a historic concept in a medieval european mod
It was moved out for a good reason, right at the start of the development of RFCE
Sry, but putting it back in is out of the question, even if it's an interesting game mechanics

 

[Chep]

current SVN-version (well, about a week old, will have to check for updates):
France: maybe fewer barbs, by about 10-20%, but it is currently playable. (again: on Emperor please no stacks of 2, else amount of barbs here is fine)
Byzantium: okay
Cordoba: fine
Spain: fine
(Venice, Bulgaria, Burgundy, Portugal and Germany seem fine as well but don't have much in terms of a barb problem)

Since the game doesn't regard tiles 3 moves away from a unit as "threatened" (and your sight is usually even less than that):
please no horse archers in areas where a new civ just started. Maybe replace them with axemen and later lancers? The only counter for horse archers are spearmen. Axemen and archers just get slaughtered. So one needs spears & archers at the moment to defend :/

Bulgaria seems to be very luck-based. Also: the capitol doesn't move to Constaninople upon conquest. Intended? (I remember that it did in the download-version...I think)

 

[ezzlar]

Bulgaria keeps its capital. The Ottoman capital is moved to Istanbul upon conquering.

 

[Mouthwash]

Slavery/whipping is not a historic concept in a medieval european mod
It was moved out for a good reason, right at the start of the development of RFCE
Sry, but putting it back in is out of the question, even if it's an interesting game mechanics

Well, why don't you justify it under some other civic? Feudal lords could demand that their servants fight for them, couldn't they? You can't just shove gameplay to the back like that in the interests of realism.

 

[ezzlar]

Whats wrong with Arabia in the SVN? The city names seem to be wrong. Jerusalem isnt Al-Quds for example. And with the terrain changes, the province of Arabia is useless. That would give a crap city just to complete UHV 1.

Slavery: I agree with AbsintheRed. Magic overday construction can be left out of the mod.

 

[rfcfanatic]

I'm currently trying to beat the Bulgarian 1st UHV on Monarch and it's making me It's like France on Emperor. Some things are really off-balance:

* Serious stability problems. Several times Odrin (Hadrianopolis) has declared independence in my games.
* The Byzantines can buy mercs all the time, but the Bulgarians have no mercs available for hire at all. That's unfair.
* If most of your Konniks are getting wasted while attacking the Spearmen in Hadrianopolis, who will be preventing the Avar barbs from pillaging your improvements and razing Preslav?
* Who will escort the 2nd Settler to Macedonia or Arberia if most of the Konniks are getting wasted?
* If you don't attack the Byzantines early, you'll be confined into a quasi-OCC mode where you'll only have 1 city that can slow-build military (9 turns for a Konnik , with Horse, Iron, Cow and Wheat). The other city has to train a Settler for either Macedonia or Arberia. Maybe additional Settler at start?
* Why do Bulgarians have to conquer Arberia anyway? Seems too far away from historical Bulgaria. Is it historical?
* Serbia is pretty much useless province for Bulgarian 1st UHV. If you capture the independent city that would spawn there, it will revolt and declare independence again.
* Konniks are too expensive to build
* Magyars spawning 3 Horse Archers NE from Preslav in one turn
* Archers are overpowered and Catapults are underpowered.
* Reducing Constantinople's defenses to 0% with Catapults would take ages. Even then the capture of Constantinople would be a pure luck. Btw, I only managed to do it after I had added 5 more Konniks for Bulgaria in WB.

I have also attached the impossible save from the turn when Bulgaria spawns. But be warned

 

[Chep]

Yeah, Bulgaria is really luckbased.

if you want the opposite take my savegame (Monarch, SVN):
the plague has emptied the Byzantine cities. Basically they're all down to size 1 (!).
Playing from here is probably a cakewalk.

I don't really know how they can be fixed. But maybe adding 2-3 catapults could help?
The problem is that you'll probably need Constantinople to get the 100 faith points in time.

edit: tried yours..you're right, it's mean. the barbs attack you and occupy your Konniks so you can't even go on the offence.

Played to 760 where I'll try taking Thessaloniki but spearman behind walls is always tough. I do think your savegame is much harder than it should be.

 

[rfcfanatic]

OK thanks, I'll check it out. Speaking of plague I was once able to walk into empty Constantinople in a Viceroy game a long time ago, but the SVN revision of that game was rather old. By now it seems that the plague doesn't coincide with the Arab or Bulgarian spawn any more.

 

[rfcfanatic]

Yes, you're right. That particular situation was very easy for Bulgarian 1st UHV. Constantinople was even able to produce 2 settlers by year 900. One of them went to Macedonia and the second one settled Tarnovo in Moesia. The Venetians got to Arberia first which meant a war against Venice. But that was easy because they only had one Archer in Scutari. Later on Venice even wanted to become my vassal. Conquered Serbia in 915, 1 turn before deadline - in order to avoid revolts. When it comes to the Magyars, I beat them back with Spearmen.

It seems that the key for success is an early capture of Constantinople. But it's completely dependent on luck.

 

[Mouthwash]

Whats wrong with Arabia in the SVN? The city names seem to be wrong. Jerusalem isnt Al-Quds for example. And with the terrain changes, the province of Arabia is useless. That would give a crap city just to complete UHV 1.

Slavery: I agree with AbsintheRed. Magic overday construction can be left out of the mod.

And as I said, gameplay>realism.

 

[DC123456789]

Whats wrong with Arabia in the SVN? The city names seem to be wrong. Jerusalem isnt Al-Quds for example.

The city name maps have yet to be fixed after the area was redone a while ago. The cities are just named properly at the beginning, because that isn't related (in code) to the city name maps (I think).