RifE 1.20 Ideas, Requests, and Feedback

[far_wanderer]

I really like this idea, actually. In the mid-lategame, I usually had about 7 or so refined mana. having an extra 7 in every city would be a big penalty, but not an insurmountable one.

I agree that a penalty would help balance things, but I'd like to see something other than unhealth. The Mechanos already have several additional sources of unhealth and are lacking many of the normal health sources to fight it (Life mana, Growth, Ancient Forests, Temples of Leaves).
What about "refueling costs" (significantly increased maintenance) for units outside their borders that have refined mana affinity?

 

[armyofwhispers]

When I was playing mechanos, I was not hurting for money. It may be my playstyle as I usually use diplomacy until midgame to avoid war until I can build up some economy.

My point however, is that reducing the money flow of a civ on the warpath isn't really that detrimental. With the Mechanos they could simply build a massive army of tanks, steamroll into an enemy civ, and conquer them before the maintainance really kicks in.

With unhealth you're actually presented with a choice: either you can build lot's of low power mecha units with low research, or you can super power the mech units at the cost of drastically reducing city pop, but with faster rsearch.

 

[KillerClowns]

Or perhaps (or as well), Refined Mana affinity could provide a typed damage; not one of the pre-existing ones, but a new type, to which certain units (Auric, dragons, and high-tier disciple units, for instance) would be resistant to. (For Auric, I'd argue for outright immunity.)

 

[Gedwyn]

Maybe this isn't the space for this post, or perhaps it is...

I'd like to see a general Religion overhaul. I think the game is in sore need of it...I'd be willing to chip in where I can (xml, maybe python though I haven't even looked at a patch of py code yet).

Anyways.

Some religions have a secondary tech that grants them a secondary wonder (RoK), some have multiple heroes while others have 1 (actually now that I type that...I'll have to look up the pedia entries for Maros, Arthedain, Yvain etc to see if they are civ heroes or religious heroes). Some have single wonders that grants the builder a secondary use other than the normal religious wonder (CoE, Emp).

I just like to see them all balanced a bit more.

Essentially, I'd like to see them all brought up to RoK level. Meaning a secondary tech, a secondary wonder and perhaps a second hero. All of them should grant a civic (guardian of nature, arete) etc...you can see where I'm going with this.

CoE probably needs the most work, in terms of bringing that religion up to speed with abilites and miracles that mimic divine abilities (healing, curing disease etc) and it would be nice to see some sort of espionage line fleshed out. A temple replacement ( as a tavern? a brothel?) with a priest type (lady of the house?) who can, for a price, perform some of these functions.

They'd need some sort of travelling triage medic as well, who doesn't heal through magic, but requires resources to heal (cotton for bandages for instance, or reagents to use like Athealas in Lord of the Rings, a healing plant to place on wounds. Copper for scissors? Heh.).

Anyways, there is a ton of room for improvement and balance for some of the religions, though I could see both Fotl and Rok getting a slight nerf to bring them down a bit.

 

[Valkrionn]

Umm, Valk, maybe Steam Tanks should be limited. Maybe no more then, say ten? They can easily get more then 20 strength, and much more power with a Master Siege smith.

Planning on it. They were supposed to be, but I left it off... Think a cap at 4 will work.

The refined affinity is the main culprit really. It's quite easy to be running around with str 12 blimps (including the swordy naval promotion, which they really should not be able to access) while everyone else is using axemen and such, with a mere 4 nodes + palace mana. Really need partial affinity (i know that's being worked on, yes) or to have it limited to way fewer units and ideally a signifigant reduction in base strength as well, forcing them to rely on capturing nodes to get the units so strong.

In the 2 mech' games I've played I never even bothered to research past blimps.. why bother with tanks when you get str 12+ flyers that can haul their own siege engines, especially since no melee/archers get a promotion to counter naval units afaik.

edit: 10 seems extemely high for tanks to me. Why not 4 max like all the other national units? Blimps/Zeppelins should be on that list too.

I think that for now, I'm going to do something rather drastic. Thanks to the Fort Commanders, I already loop all units each turn... Might as well expand that slightly for the Mechanos, check for the number of Refined Mana, check for isMechanical, and then apply a percentage bonus. Say 5% strength, or 10% ranged strength if I can do that. So all units that currently get strength from the mana, will still gain strength. It's just reduced, and is not multiplied by other promotions quite as easily.

Well the main, thing with the mechanos is that they get a massive hammer boost with most of thier stuff, and a research boost with each additional refined mana. This is a massive advantage, and practically unbeatable if they aren't nerfed in some way.

Perhaps with each additional refined mana, you get +1 or perhaps -1 that way it balances the gain.

Being able to produce tanks at 1/per at a city seems OP even with a # cap.

edit: you could even ascribe it to the radiation given off by the refined mana (from the civopedia entry).

I think dropping strength like I plan should be enough... If not, I think unhealth would work quite well.

Maybe this isn't the space for this post, or perhaps it is...

I'd like to see a general Religion overhaul. I think the game is in sore need of it...I'd be willing to chip in where I can (xml, maybe python though I haven't even looked at a patch of py code yet).

Anyways.

Some religions have a secondary tech that grants them a secondary wonder (RoK), some have multiple heroes while others have 1 (actually now that I type that...I'll have to look up the pedia entries for Maros, Arthedain, Yvain etc to see if they are civ heroes or religious heroes). Some have single wonders that grants the builder a secondary use other than the normal religious wonder (CoE, Emp).

I just like to see them all balanced a bit more.

Essentially, I'd like to see them all brought up to RoK level. Meaning a secondary tech, a secondary wonder and perhaps a second hero. All of them should grant a civic (guardian of nature, arete) etc...you can see where I'm going with this.

CoE probably needs the most work, in terms of bringing that religion up to speed with abilites and miracles that mimic divine abilities (healing, curing disease etc) and it would be nice to see some sort of espionage line fleshed out. A temple replacement ( as a tavern? a brothel?) with a priest type (lady of the house?) who can, for a price, perform some of these functions.

They'd need some sort of travelling triage medic as well, who doesn't heal through magic, but requires resources to heal (cotton for bandages for instance, or reagents to use like Athealas in Lord of the Rings, a healing plant to place on wounds. Copper for scissors? Heh.).

Anyways, there is a ton of room for improvement and balance for some of the religions, though I could see both Fotl and Rok getting a slight nerf to bring them down a bit.

From what Kael has said, the religions were not meant to be balanced that way. They have different strengths, and different effects. RoK is perfect for money, AV is science, so on... Some have more heroes, some have more passive effects. The only aspect of the religions I really want to work on is Civics, and healing for Esus... Although Esus will not get a civic. It's supposed to be hidden.

 

[WarKirby]

From what Kael has said, the religions were not meant to be balanced that way.

Stop right there!

This is YOUR mod, remember. Kael is a very knowledgeable person, but he has his own mod, and this one is yours. While it's always good to take advice from the more experienced, don't let your choices be limited by how they say things should be.

Now, if you don't want to do religions, or don't have time, that's cool. But don't hold off on doing something because someone else said so.

Besides, you're already ignoring one of his key design principles. Remember that thing I tried to talk you out of?

 

[Valkrionn]

I only mentioned it because this is one place I agree with him.

If all the religions are equal, there is no choice involved. I'd rather have religions that are better under some circumstances and worse under others, like they are now.

What was it that you tried to talk me out of? I can't remember.

 

[armyofwhispers]

I agree. a world where all religions are the same would be boring. You have to play to your strengths, or in some cases delibribrately build up a weakness just to be different.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

On religions...I place most of them from time to time, depending on what I'm trying to do. That to me is a good indication of strong design work.


That being said...OO, Empyrean, and COE are the ones I use the least. Of those I think the first is a matter of personal taste. Empyrean could really stand to have a stronger flavor...right now it smells like "generic white hats" to me. COE...needs a touch of help. Not a civic (heck, undercouncil is basically their civic already) or priests...but more medieval mafia flavor.

 

[WarKirby]

Having parallel capabilities wouldn't make religions the same. Even if OO gets a 50 foot octopus as a mega unit, I'm still going to use Order when I want to fight off hell. And I'll use OO when I want to fight around water. CoE is for stealth, AV is for ending the world, and the others each have their own niche.

Not saying every religion should be the same flavor. Just that they should all have the same amount of icing, each with it's own unique tastes. As is, some religiong have far more icing than others. The Empyrean cake is looking a little bare, but AV even gets a cherry on top. Also, this analogy is silly so I'll stop now.

 

[far_wanderer]

For religions, I'd be quite curious to see what Esus would look like as a corporation rather than a religion. At the absolute least, it would keep people from complaining about the lack of temples and priests. It's on the level of what I've always wanted corporations to be, something more than just "consumes X, X, and X, provides small bonuses".
With Empyrean, I'd like to see it become the builder/diplomat religion, so not gaining anything more in terms of military strength, but instead some new domestic benefits like buildings and/or improvements.

The other religions don't need a whole lot. For OO, either a civic, building, or improvement that boosts coast and ocean tiles. That would give them a non-military reason to stay in the water. For FoL, allow High Priests to create a new type of base terrain that provides 2 food and 2 commerce (that might need a little tweaking), but cannot support improvements. That way non-elves have a viable way of surviving on ancient forest tiles, without hurting what elves can already do. For AV, an auto-acquire promotion for Arcane units that makes some of their strength unholy and gives a slight boost to spells. Rok is fine as is (although maybe either make Soldiers of Kilmorph not go obsolete or allow Parmanders to hurry production). Order I think will also be fine assuming Empyrean is properly differentiated. If it ends up needing something new, Social Order could use a boost.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Having parallel capabilities wouldn't make religions the same. Even if OO gets a 50 foot octopus as a mega unit, I'm still going to use Order when I want to fight off hell. And I'll use OO when I want to fight around water. CoE is for stealth, AV is for ending the world, and the others each have their own niche.

Not saying every religion should be the same flavor. Just that they should all have the same amount of icing, each with it's own unique tastes. As is, some religiong have far more icing than others. The Empyrean cake is looking a little bare, but AV even gets a cherry on top. Also, this analogy is silly so I'll stop now.

Warning: Do not eat the AV cupcakes.

Yeah, honestly I would love to see more Dragons, Giant monsters, Paladin-type units, etc... As long as the religions play differently I'm cool with them all getting hit with the Moar Hammer.

 

[WarKirby]

Well, I think RoK and AV are fine as they are. They have a unique wonder, civic, tech, and mega unit. I'd like to see every religion raised to that standard.

 

[Valkrionn]

Well, I'll go ahead and lay out my thoughts on religions then.

FoL - Perfect for the Elves, need something for other civs... Started that for the Doviello, but it only applies in Tundra and Ice. I think a cheap improvement would work, so long as it's benefits don't outweigh a town the Elves shouldn't be infringed on too much.

OO - Needs work, at least economically. I think a civic would work nicely, say, increase kelp yields and culture?

AV - Perfect in my book.

Order - Again, a strong one. Doesn't have a super-unit, no, but it DOES have a civic allowing unlimited city size with a little work.

RoK - Again, perfect.

Empyrean - Too much focus on combat. I'd probably just go with the idea that had been floating around, adding a second Hero that improves your empire rather than your armies. Maybe a civic as well, with military penalties and economic benefits.

Esus - Needs work. Some method of healing, so on. Preferably through purchase, rather than priests.

Ordo - Intentionally weak. May actually need to be nerfed.

 

[xienwolf]

I would actually say that it'd be pretty boring to have each religion have the same type of things it offers. I want them to have the same QUALITY of things they offer though personally.

If I like to play with a super-unit, I want one religion to offer just that, a HUGE SUPER UNIT (preferably one not too impossible to make, like a RoK unit requiring a high AC...). For that I am willing to give up a lot of other fancy things.

If I like all my units to be stronger and better, I want one religion to offer some unique promotions which can enhance my entire army.

If I like to be globally enhanced without having to work at it, I want one religion to offer some kind of a civic or wonder which enhances my empire without me lifting a finger or worrying about it ever again.



Things along those lines. Each religion offering to make my life FAR better in one aspect or another. Then I can mold the game to suit my tastes. For instance, with Kael's religions I ALWAYS GO ROK. This is because I kind of suck at producing sufficient monetary income in my empire, and the Temples help with that a lot. Plus I flat out do not care about culture, as long as I get my first ring expansion so I can work all of the tiles. And the fact I can snag Iron without having to hope it is on my continent (or even on the map at all) is a nice bonus which I would not mind seeing on a different religion (and offering more bonuses as well...) so that I had to decide between the two of them.


Actually having a series of unique buildings which offer critical resources might be a nice bonus for Esus, which is fairly fitting to them. Want Reagents? Follow Esus and we will share some of ours. Want Mithril? Esus's arms are wide open and waiting...

 

[Tarquelne]

Want Reagents? Follow Esus and we will share some of ours.

"Cut rate. They fell off the back of a cart."

 

[far_wanderer]

FoL - Perfect for the Elves, need something for other civs... Started that for the Doviello, but it only applies in Tundra and Ice. I think a cheap improvement would work, so long as it's benefits don't outweigh a town the Elves shouldn't be infringed on too much.

My earlier suggestion of a unique terrain type was supposed to accomplish pretty much exactly this. Non-elves can terraform for decent tiles, elves can leave the underlying terrain be and build things in the trees. I suggested terrain instead of an improvement for three reasons:
1 - More foresty graphics, as there is nothing to push the trees out of the way
2 - Makes it clear that elves are still doing something quite different
3 - Protects against pillaging.

I would actually say that it'd be pretty boring to have each religion have the same type of things it offers. I want them to have the same QUALITY of things they offer though personally.

I agree. I think each religion should have a temple and a disciple line (which is a big part of why I'm pushing for Esus as a corporation), but beyond that anything goes. Technologies are nice, because they give a benefit for having followed the religion for a while even if you leave it later, but they're not necessary.

 

[Opera]

Doesn't OO already have the Tower of Complacency?

Anyway, I'm very interested in this. Could find some interestings things to port in Orbis

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Well, I'll go ahead and lay out my thoughts on religions then.

FoL - Perfect for the Elves, need something for other civs... Started that for the Doviello, but it only applies in Tundra and Ice. I think a cheap improvement would work, so long as it's benefits don't outweigh a town the Elves shouldn't be infringed on too much.

OO - Needs work, at least economically. I think a civic would work nicely, say, increase kelp yields and culture?

AV - Perfect in my book.

Order - Again, a strong one. Doesn't have a super-unit, no, but it DOES have a civic allowing unlimited city size with a little work.

RoK - Again, perfect.

Empyrean - Too much focus on combat. I'd probably just go with the idea that had been floating around, adding a second Hero that improves your empire rather than your armies. Maybe a civic as well, with military penalties and economic benefits.

Esus - Needs work. Some method of healing, so on. Preferably through purchase, rather than priests.

Ordo - Intentionally weak. May actually need to be nerfed.

FOL: If we go with my improvement revamp you'll be able to build camps on any forest tile. +1 food and a chance to spawn a bonus makes FOL MUCH more attractive for non-elves. Expanding the range of terrains allowed for yurts to include plains might also work...but that might be too strong.

 

[Opera]

Can't you build forester's lodge in forests already..?

... or is it an Orbis feature? If so, then, well, hrm, that's why I never got why playing FoL with non-elves was annoying.