[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Eagle Pursuit]

Other than the promotions/buffs of the remaining few governors, what else could they possibly discuss regarding the governor system during the livestream? Unless there is a feature not previously mentioned, I felt they already covered a lot of ground.

Yes, there just isn't much depth to this particular feature.

 

[Thormodr]

This was a few pages back now, but I just want to clear up that this is not the case. An australian gunner took out the Red Baron from the ground. Brown got credit for it for a while though.

We had many aces in Canada. Billy Bishop is our most famous. We get taught about him in elementary school, he has airports named after him and he was the ace with the third highest victory count of WWI.

That is a subject of much debate and is still unresolved.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/red-baron-theories.html

Anyway, I do wish that they would make airplanes more interesting in this or hopefully the second expansion. They seem rather lacklustre, IMHO.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Do you think this expansion will actually encourage people to grow their cities instead of building just stopping at low pop because worker charges are better spent at chopping instead of farms and low pop is enough to get the districts you want?

 

[Wingednosering]

There have been many signs that tall play is being brought back as a viable option with R&F.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

There have been many signs that tall play is being brought back as a viable option with R&F.

Im not update on all fronts, but in what would you say encourage you to build up your land instead of just chopping and build the one two districts you want?

Currently farms for example are pretty poor investment which is a bit ridiculous while harvesting is really strong so strong games are based on how to exploit it the most.

 

[stealth_nsk]

There have been many signs that tall play is being brought back as a viable option with R&F.

Hope it will not be equally viable. There are some things for tall players, but also some things for expansionists and conquerors.

 

[Leyrann]

Im not update on all fronts, but in what would you say encourage you to build up your land instead of just chopping and build the one two districts you want?

Uhm... There's a lot of things. Governors boost cities and some of them have per-population bonuses or similar, but you only have up to 7 governors and if you want to upgrade them a lot you'll have even fewer. Cities far away from your core might flip away. The Audience Chamber (Government Plaza building) gives bonus housing and amenities, but only to cities with a governor, tall cities will make you suffer from Dark Ages less, as loyalty is per-citizen only. And there might be more that we don't know about yet.

Hope it will not be equally viable. There are some things for tall players, but also some things for expansionists and conquerors.

Equally viable is fine. It's just that they shouldn't strangle one of them with penalties like they did in civ V, and they're not doing that. In R&F they're doing the balance the way it should be done - bonuses to wide that you don't unlock by playing tall (having more cities and districts) and bonuses to tall that you don't unlock (or at least don't optimally use) by playing wide (Governor bonuses, loyalty, etc).

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Uhm... There's a lot of things. Governors boost cities and some of them have per-population bonuses or similar, but you only have up to 7 governors and if you want to upgrade them a lot you'll have even fewer. Cities far away from your core might flip away. The Audience Chamber (Government Plaza building) gives bonus housing and amenities, but only to cities with a governor, tall cities will make you suffer from Dark Ages less, as loyalty is per-citizen only. And there might be more that we don't know about yet.

Governors do much more than just boost citizens and the ability that boost per citizens may not be worth the investment, governors can also be moved around. As far as I understand the only way to lose loyalty is if your city is close to foregine cities so playing aggressively seems to be more encouraged than before. Audience Chamber can give alot of stuff and the one that need governors may not be worth it.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Equally viable is fine. It's just that they shouldn't strangle one of them with penalties like they did in civ V, and they're not doing that. In R&F they're doing the balance the way it should be done - bonuses to wide that you don't unlock by playing tall (having more cities and districts) and bonuses to tall that you don't unlock (or at least don't optimally use) by playing wide (Governor bonuses, loyalty, etc).

Equally viable means strangling wide play. By defition, tall play ingnores 2 of 4X, generally half of the game. Players shouldn't be able to do so without additional difficulties.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

The best would be if we saw empires with many large cities instead of what we see currently. In which minimal cities are very good because of the district and chops they can have while growing cities at all is pretty pointless for anything but roleplaying.

 

[Leyrann]

Equally viable means strangling wide play. By defition, tall play ingnores 2 of 4X, generally half of the game. Players shouldn't be able to do so without additional difficulties.

No, viable tall does not strangle wide. Penalties strangle wide. Wide vs tall, when implmented properly, lets you make a decision which bonuses you take. And I know that I, for one, will decide on going wide in 90% of the cases. If people want tall that badly though, sure, put it in the game, as long as I can play wide I don't care.

 

[Trengilly]

The best would be if we saw empires with many large cities instead of what we see currently. In which minimal cities are very good because of the district and chops they can have while growing cities at all is pretty pointless for anything but roleplaying.

This exactly. Unfortunately at the moment I don't see much really helping. With governors, loyalty, etc it looks like they are making tall more viable but the issue isn't a tall vs wide one. They really need to increase the value of large cities (for all size empires) vs small cities.

The other main issue is a production/value balance issue. Chopping is too powerful and many of the districts/buildings aren't worth their production costs (not to mention wonders) regardless of if you are tall or wide. I'm still hopeful that they will make adjustments that help.

But I'm greatly concerned that the additional complexity they are adding is just going to expose new exploits.

 

[stealth_nsk]

No, viable tall does not strangle wide. Penalties strangle wide. Wide vs tall, when implmented properly, lets you make a decision which bonuses you take. And I know that I, for one, will decide on going wide in 90% of the cases. If people want tall that badly though, sure, put it in the game, as long as I can play wide I don't care.

There's one important thing to note - player experience level. If you make those playstyles equally viable (as much as it's possible for the game like civ) for experienced players, who are familiar with all game systems, they will not be like this for new players. Approach, which requires familiarity with only half of the game will be way more effective for them than approach requiring full game power. And they'll not have any motivation to explore the other part of the game, as mastering tall play will be more effective.

There needs to be some middle ground, so tall play is viable, but wide or conquest should be better.

 

[sonicmyst]

Tall play is also going to have an impact to loyalties.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

The other main issue is a production/value balance issue. Chopping is too powerful and many of the districts/buildings aren't worth their production costs (not to mention wonders) regardless of if you are tall or wide. I'm still hopeful that they will make adjustments that

I could see chopping nerfed to like 1/4 of what it is now. Large cities would be far more valuable if population added yield to buildings like if for example each population added 0.5 production to the workshop.

The second new district.

Is not that district Korea's unique district Sewong?

 

[Siptah]

I could see chopping nerfed to like 1/4 of what it is now. Large cities would be far more valuable if population added yield to buildings like if for example each population added 0.5 production to the workshop.



Is not that district Korea's unique district Sewong?

No. They announced two new districts for everyone: Government Plaza is confirmed. The other we've only seen in screenshots: a water park of some sort with a pier and a ferris wheel.
There are also two unique districts: the Seowon for Korea is confirmed. The other must be for one of the civs to be revealed in the next weeks.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

There have been many signs that tall play is being brought back as a viable option with R&F.

My hope is that they make use of the pre-existing code to have Great People Points tied to how many buildings are being actively worked.....rather than the current system.....as that would further encourage tall play, whilst still allowing for Wide Play to achieve the same outcome.

 

[Leyrann]

Note that we have seen the Water Park mentioned in one of the governor's promotion trees already.

 

[Siptah]

Note that we have seen the Water Park mentioned in one of the governor's promotion trees already.

Yes, that's why we know the name. We also know where it is in the tree. But we don't know what it does exactly - presumably it is similar to the EC in a way and gives amenities. But there has to be something that makes it different besides placement rules.
Or maybe the Entertainment complex will be changed and is more about loyalty than amenities, with the more late game water park being the main amenity district?

 

[God of Kings]

- What is the current situation with the Cree.

That has not been fully resolved yet.