Rise of Mankind 3.0 (final version) design discussion

[romelus]

with 2.91 i found that the republic civic has gone from one of the most useful to one of the least useful because of the change from +3 happiness to -3 happiness. even the AI seems to stay away from it now. everyone now prefers monarchy, which may or may not be intentional. monarchy should reduce army sizes due to increased unit upkeep.

oh and i could not generate a giant map with the perfectworld2 script. the game would just freeze while making the map.

 

[Deathwind]

There are two things that have always bugged me about RoM, and which would be nice to change in the final version.


1. Unique Units that aren't RoM-updated
There are several UUs that made sense in vanilla BTS but don't make sense anymore with the extended RoM tech and unit trees. For example:
The English Redcoat still replaces the Rifleman, yet uses art identical to the Musketman. If the intent is to say that England had good infantry in the Napoleonic period, then update the art. If, however, the intent is to say that England had good infantry in the 18th century, then the unit stats should be changed. This is the approach I have taken with my own xml edits -- Redcoats are now Musketmen with the +25% bonus vs. gunpowder units.
Along similar lines, the French Musketeer is intended to represent a 16th or 17th century unit, and as such it should be replacing the Arquebusier, not the Musketman.
The American Navy Seal arguably should not have replaced the Marine even in vanilla BTS -- how strange is it that America is the only civ in BTS that doesn't build Marines? In RoM, where there is a Special Forces unit, it would make much more sense to have the Navy Seal be a UU that replaces Special Forces (I would give it Amphibious as well as March to make up for the fact that SF is a national unit).
Others could be added to this list, but I think you get the idea. Now that RoM has a much wider variety of unit types and a more detailed tech tree, the UUs can and in many cases should be revised to fit the new unit system rather than the old vanilla one.

2. Unique Buildings that are replaced almost as soon as you build them.
I haven't played 2.9 enough to see if this has changed, but in previous versions it annoyed me that some UBs became much weaker than others, simply because some UBs are part of upgrade chains. To give one example, the Carthaginian Cothon was great in vanilla BTS, because all my port cities would have harbors. In RoM, where the Harbor is quickly replaced by the Port, this meant that the Carthaginian UB was only useful in the very early stages of the game, and it also meant that I was very reluctant to build Ports, due to the fact that they would be replacing my much better Cothons.

 

[civ_king]

There are two things that have always bugged me about RoM, and which would be nice to change in the final version.


1. Unique Units that aren't RoM-updated
There are several UUs that made sense in vanilla BTS but don't make sense anymore with the extended RoM tech and unit trees. For example:
The English Redcoat still replaces the Rifleman, yet uses art identical to the Musketman. If the intent is to say that England had good infantry in the Napoleonic period, then update the art. If, however, the intent is to say that England had good infantry in the 18th century, then the unit stats should be changed. This is the approach I have taken with my own xml edits -- Redcoats are now Musketmen with the +25% bonus vs. gunpowder units.
Along similar lines, the French Musketeer is intended to represent a 16th or 17th century unit, and as such it should be replacing the Arquebusier, not the Musketman.
The American Navy Seal arguably should not have replaced the Marine even in vanilla BTS -- how strange is it that America is the only civ in BTS that doesn't build Marines? In RoM, where there is a Special Forces unit, it would make much more sense to have the Navy Seal be a UU that replaces Special Forces (I would give it Amphibious as well as March to make up for the fact that SF is a national unit).
Others could be added to this list, but I think you get the idea. Now that RoM has a much wider variety of unit types and a more detailed tech tree, the UUs can and in many cases should be revised to fit the new unit system rather than the old vanilla one.

2. Unique Buildings that are replaced almost as soon as you build them.
I haven't played 2.9 enough to see if this has changed, but in previous versions it annoyed me that some UBs became much weaker than others, simply because some UBs are part of upgrade chains. To give one example, the Carthaginian Cothon was great in vanilla BTS, because all my port cities would have harbors. In RoM, where the Harbor is quickly replaced by the Port, this meant that the Carthaginian UB was only useful in the very early stages of the game, and it also meant that I was very reluctant to build Ports, due to the fact that they would be replacing my much better Cothons.

The pedia talks about 19th century

 

[Arakhor]

They most certainly has muskets in the 17th Century. The English Civil War (1642 - 1649) was fought with them.

 

[Talin2009]

There are two things that have always bugged me about RoM, and which would be nice to change in the final version.


1. Unique Units that aren't RoM-updated
There are several UUs that made sense in vanilla BTS but don't make sense anymore with the extended RoM tech and unit trees. For example:
The English Redcoat still replaces the Rifleman, yet uses art identical to the Musketman. If the intent is to say that England had good infantry in the Napoleonic period, then update the art. If, however, the intent is to say that England had good infantry in the 18th century, then the unit stats should be changed. This is the approach I have taken with my own xml edits -- Redcoats are now Musketmen with the +25% bonus vs. gunpowder units.
Along similar lines, the French Musketeer is intended to represent a 16th or 17th century unit, and as such it should be replacing the Arquebusier, not the Musketman.
The American Navy Seal arguably should not have replaced the Marine even in vanilla BTS -- how strange is it that America is the only civ in BTS that doesn't build Marines? In RoM, where there is a Special Forces unit, it would make much more sense to have the Navy Seal be a UU that replaces Special Forces (I would give it Amphibious as well as March to make up for the fact that SF is a national unit).
Others could be added to this list, but I think you get the idea. Now that RoM has a much wider variety of unit types and a more detailed tech tree, the UUs can and in many cases should be revised to fit the new unit system rather than the old vanilla one.

2. Unique Buildings that are replaced almost as soon as you build them.
I haven't played 2.9 enough to see if this has changed, but in previous versions it annoyed me that some UBs became much weaker than others, simply because some UBs are part of upgrade chains. To give one example, the Carthaginian Cothon was great in vanilla BTS, because all my port cities would have harbors. In RoM, where the Harbor is quickly replaced by the Port, this meant that the Carthaginian UB was only useful in the very early stages of the game, and it also meant that I was very reluctant to build Ports, due to the fact that they would be replacing my much better Cothons.

I'm not sure whether new Rifleman (26 str ones) were updated in AND or RoM, but now they do not have any bonuses with melee/archery etc., while Redcoat (English UU) still has all those old bonuses along with +25% vs gunpowder units. They need to be made same way so only +25% vs gunpowder units would differ them.

 

[delez]

oh please find a little time to explain me how to do this!!!

sorry about that: I've tried to put some sign to mountains, rivers, etc. but I can't understand how. Someone could explain me? Thanks

 

[Afforess]

sorry about that: I've tried to put some sign to mountains, rivers, etc. but I can't understand how. Someone could explain me? Thanks

I forget the hotkey offhand, it's like Control-S or something like that, and it lets you create a sign with a name on it. If naming geological features interests you, you might want to see this thread.

 

[NBAfan]

I forget the hotkey offhand, it's like Control-S or something like that, and it lets you create a sign with a name on it. If naming geological features interests you, you might want to see this thread.

It is Alt-S.

 

[romelus]

i've now played my 2.91 game to the modern age. the AI is building an unhealthy amount of light AA and motorcycles. it's gotten to the point where some AI mega stacks are seen marching with over 90% of these two units. i was fighting a prolonged war against the incas, who had 10x my power rating to begin with. after the AI started mass producing light AA and motorcycles, the fight became much too easy, as those units couldn't attack.

either production priority on these needs to be tweaked, or at least motorcycles should be given the ability to attack. i like the latter option more myself. i've never seen the reason to build motorcycles myself.

 

[soltari666]

1) The thing that bugs me most is the scarcity of assorted resources...namely ivory ( seen elephants once ), tea (that must be a mystery) and silk ( yeah, i have built the silk road wonder...once). usually i get s-loads of wheat/rice/silver. glass is also somewhat difficult to come by as the th ki wont trade it tooo readily and for salt resources i have to feel lucky as well.

2) i dont know how long it has already been inplemented as i am fairly new ( couple of weeks) to this astounding mod BUT: belatedly chopping trees with iron instead of braonze ist a good thing. and i enjoy the the different religions a lot. dont change the system here

3) review some outdated articles in the sevepedia sections.

4) in the description of cooperation is/was misleading, at least to my dumb self, as i still do not know for certain if there are a) more benefits for a corporation if you have the needed resource multiple times or if it is just enough to have them once and b) if you have a second corporation who needs the same resource do you have to have the resource twice or is one still enough?

5) the second most aggravating thing is the fact that research of early mounted units dont tie any culture/production/ect gains or mandatory prerequisites to other techs than horse riding so that you are able to totally forfeit the research of them. make me a lttle sad that i always go without knighthood/crusade. but honestly, there should be some interaction to non-military research.

6) love the new lighthouse, makes sense.

7) renaissance era: honestly, hove many different ships and prerequisites do you have to research to be able to move forward to industrial technology? naval cannon, naval tactics, great war...and 3-4 more...what is too much here is too little in ancient times

8) some weird timeframe choices, minor qualms though: biology, great war, explosives, photography and nationalism ( to name a few) are bewildering to me in renaissance age while steam engine is the first tech in industrial age...some thoughts might be given at these choices.

9) a german dude complaint: the german translation for "military drill" is still "drill" and not "drAll", should fix that

10) not to come off as too y: i LOVE the mod, especially the "snail" choice and i havent touched anything since the day i was introduced to it. hope you make the right choices, cheers, see ya soon

 

[civ_king]

The steam engine caused the industrial revolution (along with other stuff)

 

[soltari666]

@civ king: i know about that, steam eingine was invented in the beginning/middle/late of the 18th century (depends on the type were talking about), while for instance photography was clearly conceived during the beginning/middle of the 19th century. so the timelime is a bit weirds sometimes. i guess the "great war" refers strangely enough to the Napoleonic Campaigns (sailing ships in WW1 werent so hot) and this has happened also way after the invention of the steam engine, beginning of 19th century.
there are few others i didnt mention.

 

[zappara]

High pressure steam engine was 19th century invention and it allowed the size of steam engines to be reduced so that steam ships and trains could be invented... Camera inventions (chemicals needed, Newton discovered the colors in light etc.) were mostly in 1600's to 1800's.

Renaissance era tech advancement was the hardest part when making the tech tree - I know it's not perfect but it was the best I could do so that it would be at least somewhat logical... Also the tech amount for each era has to be about the same (for various game engine reasons) so that's why there's many naval techs. Grand War = Grand Strategy = Logistics (and yes, it refers to Napoleon's tactics).

 

[Zorn]

Exept speed and AI optimisations, the only things left to do are fixes for small inconsistencies.

The things that come to mind are:

- some resource providing buildings are normal buildings (glassware), most are national wonders
- galleys can enter ocean now, ironclads cannot
- the unit upkeep bonus of nationalism and divine cult is way too small (on larger maps)
- I don`t know if it has been done allready, but check if events scale with speed and/or mapsize. For example, gaining +8 food on snail isn`t even worth the click. On fast it is worthwhile.
- and maybe look on how religious promotions work. Some seem to appear on every unit that was build in a city with a monastery (hellenism), most others are only available for warlord units. I understand that religions are ment to be diffenrent, but the underlying mechanism should be the same to avoid unnecessary confusion.


Other than that, no complains (never made it past industrial age, though)

 

[civ_king]

Exept speed and AI optimisations, the only things left to do are fixes for small inconsistencies.

The things that come to mind are:

- some resource providing buildings are normal buildings (glassware), most are national wonders
- galleys can enter ocean now, ironclads cannot
- the unit upkeep bonus of nationalism and divine cult is way too small (on larger maps)
- I don`t know if it has been done allready, but check if events scale with speed and/or mapsize. For example, gaining +8 food on snail isn`t even worth the click. On fast it is worthwhile.
- and maybe look on how religious promotions work. Some seem to appear on every unit that was build in a city with a monastery (hellenism), most others are only available for warlord units. I understand that religions are ment to be diffenrent, but the underlying mechanism should be the same to avoid unnecessary confusion.


Other than that, no complains (never made it past industrial age, though)

The Hellenic one is weaker, so it is Monastery level

 

[tejon]

1) The thing that bugs me most is the scarcity of assorted resources...namely ivory ( seen elephants once ), tea (that must be a mystery) and silk ( yeah, i have built the silk road wonder...once). usually i get s-loads of wheat/rice/silver. glass is also somewhat difficult to come by as the th ki wont trade it tooo readily and for salt resources i have to feel lucky as well.

I've done an extensive reworking of resources to address this problem, thread here and latest version (2.91-friendly) here. I believe Afforess has included this in AND, as well.

And yes, ivory was my initial motivation.

 

[JinZanmato]

This mod make the game almost perfect.

One thing I miss though, One more Religion. The Norse Mythology, my absolute favorite of the religion of all time

 

[soltari666]

@ tejon you saved my day and killed my no1 issues right away, good sir ive seen elephants and silk in spades...i was quite overwhelmed with that pleasant surprise. i recommend downloading this file to everbody!!!


@zappara: i sure feel your pain making the tech tree, i feel everyone who watched the history channel once has an opinion on it. to clear my (very, very minor) issues with it is your incoherence regarding the development stage of each "device/idea".
For example: Photography was probably possible in the 18th century with all its theoretical knowledge and needed tools. the first "snapshot" was though taken in the 1830es if my memory serves me right, but that is all fine and dandy. You choose to implement the earliest possible mentioning of photography in the techtree. all fine with me.

with the steamenigine though, whose early models came to being in the early 18th century you chose to take the hundred years later model which finally propelled the first train and put that in the techtree.
Same with Nationalism. the general historical term describes political climate changes in the european theatre around 1850/60/70. there were certainly earlier mentions of the term in late 18th books, but the reference was somewhat different. here you chose the earliest inception again.

to me that is somewhat incoherent.

But remember this, you made the mod, the mod rules, and you are calling the shots. nothing supercrazy in here, so again, my complaints are very, very minor.


@zappara again: concerning my second issue with (too) little connections from the early/medieval cavalry tactics to any domestic use and prerequisites to other tech:
Instead of just whining and complaining here some argument for a change

Horse breeding as prerequisite for Siege weapons
Why: well the mighty catapults and triboks werent certainly carries by donkeys, bulls and manpower alone! more muscular horses were in demand for both warfare as well as field works which would also nicely flow in the following tech serving domestic need in building windmills or providing work power for the later three field crop rotation.

Chivalry as prerequisite for matchlock
why: sounds strange at first, eh? Heavy armoured horseman ruled the battlefields in late medieval warfare. arrows and most crossbows didnt have enough velocity to penetrate those defenses. my logic hereby would be: why pushing expensive, unreliable (rain and moist wrecked earlier gunpowder weapons) technology if here would be no need to do so? the dominace of knight demanded an answer to a problem that wouldnt have been there without them.

so so good, back to playing a bit,
have a good one

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

This mod make the game almost perfect.

One thing I miss though, One more Religion. The Norse Mythology, my absolute favorite of the religion of all time

Have you tried AAranda's Religions (here). You can just have Asatru if you want but you need to download the lot. I got too many complaints when I put them up as individual mods.

 

[gunburned]

All is good... except for a couple concerns.

Would be a good idea to prune some extra units off the unit trees?

-Flamethrower unit cannot upgrade is this intentional? Also i find it obsolete before they become available.
-Re con unit's after adventurer unit seem kinda pointless to build. I think they should be removed maybe add +1 sight upgrade to those units to make have at least 1 viable. This way there would be a point to having at least one, otherwise why build them when there are much better units to build right?

Second Naval Units
Around Industrial era and especial modern and trans human era. Boats move soo quickly that its almost impossible to intercept them, or am I missing something? Transports can just move in and drop their loads and disappear. Other boats can run in pillage and vanish to hard to spot when boats are moving 20+spaces.

-To fix this I think Navigation 2 promotion should be changed to just flat out +1 movement, double movement may seem awesome early game but it becomes too much to handle later on.
- Maybe even flat out lower all ships movements by 1-2 in later eras.

I hope you find this information valuable. I love playing this mod and keep up the great work. Let me know what you think of my input!