RK13 - The Great Prophet Game

White Dragon · Aug 10, 2009

Sorry for the delay on the plan.

1.) If we trade for machinery our gallics become obsolete. I assume that is OK. Crossbows and Macemen are better.
2.) After Paper, where are we headed? Education? We are running out of trades so we will need Construction and Engineering soon for attack and defense.
3.) Do we want to run any specialists?

As for the rest, chain irrigate farms, make Gergovia a production powerhouse, lay down more cottages, and help culture in Verlamion.

Will play soon.

Meatbuster · Aug 11, 2009

1.) Yes.
2.) I have a headache. I DON'T KNOW!!! Ok... actually that's a good idea.
3.) Other than priests at the capital, or maybe scientists in Vienne, I don't think any city can support specialists.

Glare Seethe · Aug 11, 2009

Paper > Edu sounds good to me.

White Dragon · Aug 11, 2009

The Prophecy of the Dragon, Part 3

In general this was an uneventful set. Sorry Glare, I played my set before I got your comment and based on my interpretation of MB's headache I went Paper -> Construction -> Theo. The last one wasn't on the list but I just kept building all those Level 2 troops and IMHO we need Level 3 Cats for any war to be effective.

Spoiler :

I think we are running -40 gpt at 100% slider so we need a little work. The settled prophet with market in Bibracte will help but I think we need Courthouses in many of our cities. I think it could save us as much as 10 gpt.

With Joao at Friendly and Gilga at Pleased, are we still going to war with them?

I checked the trade screen and didn't see anything worth mentioning. Hopefully didn't screw this up too much. Please comment on what you guys would have done differently.

Glare Seethe · Aug 11, 2009

Wish I could look at the save but I'm on the other computer at the moment. It sounds like a good set, though. I'm assuming our power rating looks a bit better after building all those units.

Gilga at Pleased is very good although Verlamion's garrison needs to be sufficiently large to repel any attempt as he can still declare on us.

I am completely against a medieval war, though, I don't know if that was the plan... Better to go towards Liberalism and take a military Renaissance tech from it (i.e. Rifling or something on the path to Rifling, or Steel), then hit Gilgamesh with a tech advantage, than to hit him now with medieval units, when he's Protective with longbows.

All those maces will upgrade nicely to CR2 rifles.

Meatbuster · Aug 11, 2009

What... Gilga's only at Pleased. Probably due to us running a civic or something. Anyway, Montezuma does it all the time, why can't we? He can't be Joao's buddy or anything.

Ok, I agree with the non-medieval war. Let's do it later than sooner. So what's the plan... head over to Liberalism then take something on the way to rifling (likely Press or Parts) or steel (Guns or Chemistry). We will need engineering too, for trebs, and also on the way to steel. Currently the war will be "rifles and trebs" rather than "maces and cannons", though admittedly the second choice is more effective, unless the enemy has cuirassers.

We have a problem though... Steel is 5 techs away (including engineering and education).
Rifling is 6 techs away (Replaceable parts requires Banking, which means going through Feudalism AND Guilds.)
What to do... what to do... ohh... hopefully we can get at least Chemistry from Liberalism.

Also, our happiness cap is way too high now, we can afford to grow a lot. I am going to farm up verlamion and cottage up camulodumum and see what happens.

I think I can play in... 18 hours... maybe.

Edit: checked save...

pre-turn:
Settle prophet
Revolt to Theocracy.
Find a spy... what are we doing with the spy... espionage defense?
Right now, I'm a sick puppy wondering what to do.

Change tech to Education.

I guess I'll wait for input first.

White Dragon · Aug 11, 2009

I figured our spy could explore past Gandhi and Charlemagne since they will not open borders with us just so we can get a full look at the shape of the map. I suppose trading world maps will do the same thing though.

I guess I assumed with the war is imminent talk that it would be maces/knights & trebs. That is the main reason I went for Theo. I like war. I like lots of good land as well.

Meatbuster · Aug 12, 2009

I don't think anyone would trade us theo anyway. It's usually held until Hagia and AP are built, and really highly valued by warmongers. It's actually not a bad idea to give free 2xp to every unit we build for the next few hundred years...

Playing within 6 hours.

Meatbuster · Aug 13, 2009

All right, so 6 hours became 30 hours but something came up, sorry. Here's what happened...

DOMESTIC ADVISOR:

Ahh, a relatively peaceful turnset. Boring. But I took some of the highlights. Played 25 turns to 1050AD.

I build infrastructure at our 2 coastal cities and vienne, and continue pumping units out of Gergovia and Tolosa. Whip up some courthouses because the maintenance deadly in some cities.

What's building now:

FOREIGN ADVISOR:

We get a great event, ensuring that Joao will be our best friend for the rest of eternity. Man, now I wish he would declare on Gandhi..

Also, I decided to start building the AP. I hope we get it. Gandhi might steal it under our nose, but it works to our favor either way:
If we win, we deny it from other religions, plus get a powerful +2 hammers per Taoist religious building we build. If we lose, we get a lot of gold, perfect for funding our research or unit upgrades.

We made these trades, putting us closer to Liberalism, Rifling and Steel...

Oh, and before you say anything, Ragnar already had Paper, so I decided to just trade it out.

MILITARY ADVISOR

I'm disappointed, there are NO WARS going on and no one has too much on their hands right now. COME ON! Gilgamesh... Charlie... Ragnar... ALEX!!! WHAT'S UP! I thought you people were warmongers! You're all sissies! I'm disappointed with you lot.

I move units away from Joao and towards our staging point at Gilga's borders, since the chances of him attacking us is practically nil.

Let us build Trebuchets while awaiting either Steel or Rifling.

Our army now:

White Dragon · Aug 13, 2009

Nice set and sweet trades. Looks like Theo at least helped a little.

So, what kind of victory are we going for? I haven't seen any kind of vote. I would like to war like it is nobody business, however, I seem to loose by AP Cheese quite often so I would also like to go that way to see how it is done.

Meatbuster · Aug 13, 2009

I wouldn't call that a little. Without Theo those trades wouldn't have been possible. Not to mention all the troops I've been building this turnset gets a +2 xp...

Usually for some reason warmongers avoid researching it themselves due to other tech priorities. Though Ragnar may have gotten it from Gandhi in this game.

We will never win via AP (cheese or not) until everyone has Taoism. Right now due to closed borders with Charlie I can't see us sneaking a missionary in until the UN, barring an act of God like superultramegalucky religion spread. So WAR it is... until the UN...

Time to build more units especially trebs... and tech to Liberalism for (I'm guessing) Gunpowder or Press. After that we can decide on Steel or Rifling.

Glare Seethe · Aug 14, 2009

Got it, will play tonight maybe or tomorrow more likely. There are some resource trades that we need to do (fish to Alex for corn) and we need to cancel the wine for gpt deal with Joao because we really need the health.

We are also working a lot of unimproved tiles but most of our workers are building roads. :\ Gergovia's running a spy specialist instead of an engineer. We are in Slavery but haven't whipped much as far as I can tell so we might as well switch to Caste and workshop some stuff, especially since we traded for Guilds. Gergovia has a big food surplus and could use some more hammers, and in any case should probably build the HE first before continuing with more units.

Tolosa's building units even though there are some cottages around it, it should be one or the other. Personally I think it should be cottages, and it can give that one grassland hill back to Gergovia.

Edu > Lib til 1 turn > Gunpowder > Chemistry > Lib > Steel is the plan, I think. Will keep an eye on the competition, hopefully we won't have to finish Lib before we finish Chemistry. This is where the no Great Scientists thing could really screw us over... but hopefully it won't.

Meatbuster · Aug 14, 2009

What's with all this "working unimproved tiles" thing... unless you consider forests and coast as unimproved tiles, I am not sure if any of the cities are working much if any of those.

Glare Seethe · Aug 14, 2009

Yeah I meant forests mostly... for example Vienne's working two plains forest tiles if I remember correctly, they can be whipped away into the grocer, or else switched to cottage tiles instead. Water tiles are also not so great. Nothing big or anything but I am definitely whipping some stuff.

Then I think I'll switch to Caste after the workers lay down some more improvements.

What's the plan for Tolosa? I'd like it to be cottaged but if we do that we're left with only Gergovia as a production city. Camu could be another one with the Moai Statues, you guys have a preference in either case?

Meatbuster · Aug 14, 2009

All right let's have the Moai in Camu then. I don't see Tolosa being high-production unless Workshops... which might actually work... that's an alternate plan I guess. Are we going into State Property someday? We might as well be since (lacking founders) I don't see any corporations in the future.

I see. Though I never considered forests as unimproved tiles myself... :lol:

Whip away! Though there are already certain places I did whip courthouses...

Glare Seethe · Aug 15, 2009

Sorry for the delay and the relative lack of screenshots, I ended up being more busy today than I expected but still wanted to get this set in tonight, otherwise it'd have been delayed even more.

IT, 1050AD:

- Move scout towards Gilga's closest city to keep an eye out, although we are pretty safe with him at Pleased.
- Stop all workers building roads.
- Stop EP spending on Gandhi and Charlemagne as they are way behind and no threat in the Lib race. We won't be able to get visibility into Gilga's research any time soon but on the others yes.
- Cancel wine to Joao for gpt deal, and give fish to Alex for corn. Together this removes almost all unhealthiness from our cities (only Bibracte has -1).
- Replace spy in Gergovia with an engineer and put in the Heroic Epic. Give Tolosa's mined hill back as well, and switch to it from the plains farm, so the HE is in 12 turns instead of 14.
- Whip catapult in Tolosa, grocer in Vienne and market in Verlamion.
- Give our only incense to Joao for 10gpt because we don't need the happiness that badly. Slider to 100% for now.

1060AD:

We are the most cultured civilization in the world. And Alex demands Paper, but I refuse.

Vienne starts a temple, Verlamion a grocer, Tolosa a forge. Workers are cottaging in Vienne and Bibracte, workshopping near Camu and will start mining more hills around Gergovia (also chopping out the HE in the process). Whip the courthouse in Durnovaria.

Just noticed we have a spy in India, nice.

1070AD:

Education is in, Liberalism is next. Gilgamesh completes The Hagia Sophia. We could whip the AP now for 6pop, but that's crazy expensive, no thanks.

1080AD:

Camu whips its first maceman. I'll have Gergovia on strict siege duty after the HE is in.

1090AD:

Gilgamesh wants Education for Gunpowder and 250g. No.

1100AD:

Whip some stuff. I always get a little lazy after the first turn in the set and stop reporting everything I whip or build, sorry about that.

1110AD:

AP is in, coincidentally just in time for the chops near Gergovia to finish, so I switch from the HE to a Taoist temple to get it in one turn for the Spiritual bonus. Bibracte starts a grocer because we need more money. Always.

Oh, and Ragnar declares war on Gandhi. Let's see what our spy can spy.

1120AD:

We win the AP chair (vs. Joao). Charlemagne jumps in against Gandhi. Joao can research Liberalism so I put all EP on him... but we still won't have it in time I think. Lib is in 7 turns and we are making 14 EP a turn, not enough to catch up in time to see his research. I hire three spy specialists in cities that can afford to and we're up to 26 EP a turn, that should be enough hopefully.

I'm debating whether or not to trade Education to Gilgamesh for Gunpowder. I'm worried that Joao is teching Lib and Gilga is teching Edu. In this scenario we'd have to take Lib right now and take the best we could from it - namely Gunpowder or Printing Press. If Gilga's teching Edu then we won't be able to do the Edu for Gunpowder trade in 7 turns, thereby screwing us from taking Chemistry from Lib.

I guess we will see how this goes down.

1130AD:

Our spy sees that Alex has taken a city from Gandhi... a while ago I guess. Gandhi's stack's still parked in Delhi.

1140AD:

Hire another spy, in Tolosa. Getting nervous.

1150AD:

Bibracte finishes the grocer and starts on the National Epic. Debated between that and a university... don't know which is better in the long run. Good news is that Gilgamesh will still give us Gunpowder (and his map) for Education so I'm not sure he's actually teching it.

Visibility into Joao's research next turn.

On second thought switch from the NE to a university. We want to get to Steel ASAP and we're running a high slider (80% in the green at the moment) plus are in Bureaucracy. Next GP in 7 turns even without the NE.

1160AD:

Joao's teching Liberalism and will have it in three turns. We are teching Liberalism and will have it in three turns. A Friendly competition between Friends. We, however, are the founders and leaders of Taoism, and therefore more blessed by it than Joao, who is a mere follower of the faith. As evidence: miners strike gold in the hills of Durnovaria and we get paid ~150g. Suddenly we can afford to up the slider to 100%: Lib in 2 turns. Suck it Joao.

Also do the trade with Gilga so we can take Chemistry from Lib, and he graciously throws in lots of gold and his world map as well. I also make a trade with Ragnar - Philosophy for 260g.

Fire spies everywhere.

1170AD:

Ragnar takes a city from Gandhi.

1180AD:

Pick Steel next and save game!

Tech screen:

And poor Gandhi:

I suggest we send our scout (who is in the jungle near Gilga's closest city) to roam around the Sumerian empire and see what we're dealing with here. He has Gunpowder already so protective muskets should be expected, but we should locate his SoD at least to see what he can throw at us. Once Steel is in I think we should go 100% gold and whip units like crazy while upgrading all of our siege.

White Dragon · Aug 15, 2009

Super sweet job Glare. I would have pissed it away. Come to think of it, I kinda did.

Will take a look at save but I assume the plan is to continue to specialize each city, build maces like crazy, and tech steel (+/- 20 turns).

Edit: Yeah, maces everywhere with a couple of pikes mixed in until steel. We just don't have the money to pay for upgrading trebs to cannons. Only 110 a piece but still too much.

Revolt out of slavery into serfdom so our workers can improve our tiles even faster. Also, are building oxford and wall street in bibracte? I say we save NE for an enemy capital that has enough food/grassland to support specialists. Bibracte just doesn't have that and with Bureaucracy, Oxford is just too powerful there, IMHO.

Meatbuster · Aug 15, 2009

Nice getting lib.

Ragnar has no metal? That's the only reason he can live with a force like that. Looks like we're on our way to cannons but Gilga may be on his way to grens? This is messed up.

Looks like we will have to win via defensive war and superior numbers...

I agree with building Oxford and Wall Street in Bib. It's just too good there. But I don't see any other sites we can put the NE on except Vienne, which is just an average GP farm at best.

Gilga might have grenadiers soon. I hope our future cannons hold up or we can build our own pinch grenadiers soon (after steel) heh heh.'

EDIT: Checked save...
I suggest backfilling our techs. Get Alex's optics and drama for our education (gilga and joao have it anyway already). This improves our relationship with Alex and makes us undisputed tech leader for now. Not HBR though, we may need chariots for our Hereditary Rule.

Also if we're going to fight a defensive war...

Ok, this is stuff I don't normally do in normal games but there's a clear land choke point here and I can't ignore it. Initially we could cut some jungle inside our border and build forts and roads at the choke point. After taking the city, chop the jungles around it immediately to stop Gilga from parking units there, while still keeping some units at the nearest fort. Problem is an amphibious invasion, I think we can build 2-3 caravels at Verlamion to discourage it.

Glare Seethe · Aug 16, 2009

Okay, let's save the National Epic for Eridu. It has pigs, three sugars and lots of riverside grasslands that we can farm. Can't find a better location really, and we'll have it soon enough anyway.

Kind of sucks that Gilgamesh can tech both Steel and MS at the moment, but oh well. I would say focus on producing trebs despite the costs of upgrading, as with enough cannons the other units won't really matter that much. With 100% we can upgrade two trebs/cats a turn, that's not so bad.

Maybe Verlamion should be converted to production as well. If we switch to Caste for the extra hammer from workshops (that'd make them 5h at the moment, better than a plains hill) it can produce troops pretty quickly actually (4-5 turns depending on unit). With Bibracte free to contribute units after the university's done we'll have four cities pumping out military; I think we'll have enough units to attack in about ~40 turns. That sounds like a lot but we should probably have at least 30 or 40 units in our stack; Gilga's protective and we have to take that into account.

EP points need to be re-distributed evenly between everyone except Gilga, Charles and Gandhi, I think. It'd be really nice to know what Joao's teching as we can just trade with him constantly to keep up in tech while we're warring. Gilga's going down anyway so screw him.

Don't want to be too rash, but after Steel I think we should go full-on military. Depending on the tech situation that could mean teching Military Science or heading towards Rifling, and completely avoiding economical techs. Macemen upgrade to both grenadiers and riflemen. Charlemagne should go down fairly easily as he's backwards, and frankly no one actually has much land so no one will ever be a big threat. Cannons and rifles can be game-ending units in the right conditions and I think there's a chance of that happening here as well.

First to kill Gilga off, though. We should track down his SoD. An easy way to get rid of it is to take Umma on the second turn of war, then retreat into the jungle and let his stack re-take it, then kill it off with city raider promotions. That said it's happened to me before that the AI decided to attack me in the field instead and my plan went south... so I dunno.

Alternatively we park our stack in the jungle or a fort per Meatbuster's suggestion and let him suicide his units on us. We won't be able to take Umma, then cut the jungle around it before his stack arrives, though. If we play defensively it'd have to be within our borders. Looking at Meatbuster's map, I'd put a fort 1S of the iron and cut everything down around it. If he suicides his stack on the fort, great. If he tries to go around the fort we kill his stack in the field.

I have a feeling a large part of his power comes from cheap protective walls and castles, though. Hopefully he won't be a big hurdle.

I do vote for Caste over Serfdom, in any case.

White Dragon · Aug 16, 2009

The Prophecy of the Dragon, Part 4

Spoiler :

RK13 - The Great Prophet Game

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