Rome First Look (Trajan) Video

[Thorburne]

We don't know about diplomacy enough to say whether it's possible.

Ed has talked about how with the agendas it outta fun to play the different AIs against each other. With that said, is day that it is a safe bet that you will be able to negotiate a war between two civs.

I hired you to start a war! It is a prestigious line of work with a long and glorious tradition!
- Vizzini, The Princess Bride

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[Morningcalm]

It would seem that you are dropping the subject because you know nothing about the subject.

There is actually is not a lot of material from historians that has survived about Trajan. I looked through Cassius Dio, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger amongst others but couldn't find any references to his physique. Certainly there is information on his predessor Nerva and his successor Hadrian in regards to their health and physique. All I could find was the references to Trajan being overly fond of wine, war and little boys.

Have you tried using a Google image search? The closest image to Trajan's current in-game appearance is from a bust (with laurel wreath) from baths in Ankara. This bust was created shortly before Trajan died. Wikipedia states (under the Death and Succession section of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajan ) that Trajan's health declined in 117, "something publicly acknowledged by the fact that a bronze bust displayed at the time in the public baths of Ancyra showed him clearly aged and emaciated."

So when I referred to Trajan's in-game representation as a "time of death" Trajan, I was barely joking. The artists made no effort to portray Trajan in his prime, just as they for Pericles showed him basically at the time of death.

Other extant busts of Trajan show a robust, round-faced man with a serious expression and a distinctive hairstyle. Though many Roman emperors had statues idealized to some degree, the less-than-perfect facial appearance of Trajan to me seems an indication of accuracy (just as the elongated features of Akhenaton on extant busts, while potentially exaggerated, likely also resembled the real ruler more closely than other oft-idealized statues portrayinf ancient rulers).

 

[dturtle1]

It's very exploitable feature, so most games which care about balance tend to have some limits on it. The most common limit is - you may be unable to ask to have a war against a civ you're not at war with. Plus it may require some kind of alliance with a civ you're asking to do so.

Either of those limits will make it impossible to force early-game Scythia to attack Rome.

You didnt name any Also you are at War with Rome, thats why you want Scythia to attack Rome, so you dont fight on two fronts.

Maybe there is Culture Tech limits on whether you can propose third party wars. It wasn't In Civ5, It is not in any Total War game, It is not in a Endless Legend...Please name these "balanced" Strategy Games where Third party war is unlocked.

In this current scenario i may not be able convince Scythia to go War against Rome and in that case Scythia becomes the more immediate threat over Rome. I am not going to leave my Home City/Cities totally undefended. In most case i will know that Scythia is building up her army and i will have put in measures in place. You can be damn sure though i wont at least proposition her to do my dirty work for me

 

[lindsay40k]

I can't see the advantage of having forts to protect territory unless built at chokepoints or in a long string close together. In any other circumstances I see nothing to stop opponents just going round them.

'Going around them" = "getting funnelled into crossfires"

Also build forts in your fall back location, you can engage in battle with ranged and line units then withdraw behind your blocker units

 

[Martinus]

Maybe Legions used to have +10 but were the ones nerfed because with a fort they would have been unbeatable?

 

[Craig_Sutter]

I still won't believe the AI will use the fort building ability until I see it... Civ 5 AI Legions never did.

 

[Plus Ultra]

I still won't believe the AI will use the fort building ability until I see it... Civ 5 AI Legions never did.

Don't worry, they'll be programmed to use them.

Effectively? Not a chance.

 

[Ulthwithian]

You didnt name any Also you are at War with Rome, thats why you want Scythia to attack Rome, so you dont fight on two fronts.

Maybe there is Culture Tech limits on whether you can propose third party wars. It wasn't In Civ5, It is not in any Total War game, It is not in a Endless Legend...Please name these "balanced" Strategy Games where Third party war is unlocked.

In this current scenario i may not be able convince Scythia to go War against Rome and in that case Scythia becomes the more immediate threat over Rome. I am not going to leave my Home City/Cities totally undefended. In most case i will know that Scythia is building up her army and i will have put in measures in place. You can be damn sure though i wont at least proposition her to do my dirty work for me

The issue, dturtle, is that in CiVI you can't attack early except through a surprise attack, IIRC. (You might be able to denounce + wait, but that's unclear.) Scythia hates anyone who initiates a surprise attack. Tomyris is, in fact, the bouncer of the Ancient World. If you start anything, she finishes it.

As such, attacking someone and then asking Scythia to join in on the attack will almost certainly not work. By diplomatic modifiers, she is far more likely to join in attacking you.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

Forts are excellent place to put your ranged units in. With the bonuses they'll catch up in melee strength with melee units of the same era (especially if the fort is built in the right place), while shooting right and left.



Civ5 Rome was heavy military one with 2UU (1 being siege) and ability which works best with puppets. It's time for Civ6 Rome to be different, especially with Trajan being known as builder as much as the warrior.

They also have the Level I Garrison promotion +10 strength in districts and forts. Forts will be highly effective if placed properly

 

[Scaramanga]

The issue, dturtle, is that in CiVI you can't attack early except through a surprise attack, IIRC. (You might be able to denounce + wait, but that's unclear.) Scythia hates anyone who initiates a surprise attack. Tomyris is, in fact, the bouncer of the Ancient World. If you start anything, she finishes it.

As such, attacking someone and then asking Scythia to join in on the attack will almost certainly not work. By diplomatic modifiers, she is far more likely to join in attacking you.

I think it's been pretty clear you can declare a Formal War after denouncing for 5 turns. I like the idea of Tomyris being the bouncer/bounty hunter of the ancient world.

 

[Ulthwithian]

I think it's been pretty clear you can declare a Formal War after denouncing for 5 turns. I like the idea of Tomyris being the bouncer/bounty hunter of the ancient world.

I'm just not sure that Formal Wars are available from the beginning of the game or not.

Also, 5-turn waits are... pretty brutal in terms of allowing response time.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I'm just not sure that Formal Wars are available from the beginning of the game or not.

Also, 5-turn waits are... pretty brutal in terms of allowing response time.

Formal Wars are available from around Classic era through some civic.

 

[Olleus]

To be fair, humans (almost) never used the fort building ability of legions either.

I think it's going to be hard to use well. Having a small number of charges to build them with is unusual, once it's gone - it's gone. Your legion is now worse off than a brand new one. I tend to be very conservative stuff like that (such as using potions in RPGs) so might struggle to make myself use it. I'll be in fear of needing it more later. Although once legions are about to be upgraded I might see myself use it very liberally before it disappears.

Btw, do we know the bonus from being fortified? I think it's +4 but I can't remember exactly. If so then a legion in a fort on a hill has:
+5(legion) +4(fort) +4(fortified) +3(hill) = +16
against other swordsmen, which are the strongest unit of the era. From what people have been saying that is enough to one-hit-kill a unit. So the legion would be almost invincible. Waiting another era and bringing in pikemen (str 41) doesn't help that much, legions still have a +10. Knights come closer, but are still weaker. Unless you have a special UU, you have to wait until muskets to have a unit which can beat a well fortified legion. Large numbers of ranged units could eventually bring down and so could flanking/support bonuses, but only if you are completely passive in your defence.

The more I think about it, the more I realise that Rome is not a conquering civ as before. It's an expansion then turtle civ.
A rough strategy: Get the policy that gives cheaper settlers ASAP, spam those around you as fast as you can. After having researched the techs you need for your immediate economic development, get to iron working. Start pumping out legions as the land to settle disappears and your neighbours might start thinking aggressively. Now *do not invade others*, but turtle up and catch up on infrastructure. Building lots of settlers and legions probably means you have fewer districts than others so this will take some time. Luckily the baths will help with that, as does having more lucrative trade routes and not needing to build monuments. By the time you hit the renaissance and your legions are no longer enough to keep you safe, you should have caught up in the development of your cities AND you'll have more of them. You can now take whatever path you want to victory.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Btw, do we know the bonus from being fortified? I think it's +4 but I can't remember exactly. If so then a legion in a fort on a hill has:
+5(legion) +4(fort) +4(fortified) +3(hill) = +16

In "Devs play religion" video fortification bonus was +6 (once Ed hovers over China fortified Swordsman while Catapult is selected).

 

[Olleus]

In "Devs play religion" video fortification bonus was +6 (once Ed hovers over China fortified Swordsman while Catapult is selected).

oh nice. Probably builds up over a couple of turns rather than all at once then (unless you are in a fort of course).

You can add +2 to my numbers in the previous post then. Makes fortified legions even more formidable.

 

[Thorburne]

To be fair, humans (almost) never used the fort building ability of legions either.

I think it's going to be hard to use well. Having a small number of charges to build them with is unusual, once it's gone - it's gone. Your legion is now worse off than a brand new one. I tend to be very conservative stuff like that (such as using potions in RPGs) so might struggle to make myself use it. I'll be in fear of needing it more later. Although once legions are about to be upgraded I might see myself use it very liberally before it disappears.

Btw, do we know the bonus from being fortified? I think it's +4 but I can't remember exactly. If so then a legion in a fort on a hill has:
+5(legion) +4(fort) +4(fortified) +3(hill) = +16
against other swordsmen, which are the strongest unit of the era. From what people have been saying that is enough to one-hit-kill a unit. So the legion would be almost invincible. Waiting another era and bringing in pikemen (str 41) doesn't help that much, legions still have a +10. Knights come closer, but are still weaker. Unless you have a special UU, you have to wait until muskets to have a unit which can beat a well fortified legion. Large numbers of ranged units could eventually bring down and so could flanking/support bonuses, but only if you are completely passive in your defence.

The more I think about it, the more I realise that Rome is not a conquering civ as before. It's an expansion then turtle civ.
A rough strategy: Get the policy that gives cheaper settlers ASAP, spam those around you as fast as you can. After having researched the techs you need for your immediate economic development, get to iron working. Start pumping out legions as the land to settle disappears and your neighbours might start thinking aggressively. Now *do not invade others*, but turtle up and catch up on infrastructure. Building lots of settlers and legions probably means you have fewer districts than others so this will take some time. Luckily the baths will help with that, as does having more lucrative trade routes and not needing to build monuments. By the time you hit the renaissance and your legions are no longer enough to keep you safe, you should have caught up in the development of your cities AND you'll have more of them. You can now take whatever path you want to victory.

I used the legions fort building ability still of the time. Especially for securing my borders after conquest. I'd capture cities, the usually take a legion to build a fort at a strategic locating near my borders and put a siege unit or archer there. They also provided places for me to "store" my units between combat.

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[Seek]

I can't see the advantage of having forts to protect territory unless built at chokepoints or in a long string close together. In any other circumstances I see nothing to stop opponents just going round them.

With the new terrain movement and ZoC rules, a lot more land will result in "soft" chokepoints where forts should be able to extend a fair bit of control.

 

[thecrazyscot]

I can't see the advantage of having forts to protect territory unless built at chokepoints or in a long string close together. In any other circumstances I see nothing to stop opponents just going round them.

Forcing the enemy to just "go around them" is a military tactic all on its own.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Another point is that forts are more expensive this time as you have to expend your builders to construct them. Hopefully they will be well worth the investment.....

Actually I think you just expend Military Engineers (builders probably can't build forts)

However builders increase in cost the more you build... I don't think military engineers do.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Forcing the enemy to just "go around them" is a military tactic all on its own.

Let's also remember that encampments can also get a ranged attack like cities when you build walls. So a well placed fort close to your city and encampment could be quite strong if the enemy is confronted with a fort and the threat of 2 ranged attacks.