RtW: Add-On Pack 3 BETA for 3.17

[Chamboozer]

Those kinds of crashes baffle me. Good luck, Dale!



By 1936, Europe's been developing for centuries longer than any of its colonies. So could you make some basic sort of building or something to represent that development, prerequisite for all factories? And make this "Development" building take a crazy long time to build. Only developed cities would have it, and developing colonies or other small nations would almost never be able to get it built, and that would represent accurately and effectively the big development difference.

Japan's mainland could have these Development buildings, but (I think) China shouldn't, and that would make a big difference. Planes can be expensive and Japan can lack oil early on, but still they'll have that huge industrial advantage over China (and that's realistic, isn't it?). As of now, when I play as Japan I'm able to use Great Engineers to really beef up the production on Japan's scattered Pacific islands, but that doesn't seem right. The islands should be little more than indestructible aircraft carriers, shouldn't they? Japan's mainland should be the main factory that has to fuel everywhere else, right? And if it takes one of these Development buildings to make a place have any industrial capacity, then even Great Engineers on those little islands won't be able to do that much.

And this way, tiny Europe, Britain's main island, and Japan can all be much more powerful than sprawling China or Brazil, even if a human plays China or Brazil.

I think that's a great idea, but this building shouldn't be possible to build anywhere else because people can just hurry production on it with a lot of money.

It will also require units to be beefed up quite a bit in price.

To simulate the colonies supplying troops to countries, drafting units should be a possiblity again. This way cities without much production experience can still make units. How about they always make the unit one level less than the one you currently have. (can build advanced infantry, can draft improved infantry)

 

[VeteranLurker]

I started a second game as Germany (Random Mode, Global) and have some more thoughts. I had to mess with which cities were working which squares in order to keep Munich from starving. Not a big deal I suppose, but it explains why in my first game British forces arrived at a size=1 Munich -- the AI apparently does not adjust which cities are working which squares. Also, from the UK game, several cities were starving until I built the naval works (or whatever it's called) that gives +1 food from the sea. This is weird/frustrating, and my guess would be that the AI will botch this as well, leading to many depleted coastal cities. Why not 1) fix which cities work which plots in the initial savefile; and 2) give large coastal cities the naval works; so that no one is starving on day-1? If you're concerned about these cities growing too large, maybe change the surrounding terrain so there is less food.

I think the real issue is that in game-terms Europe is too small tile-wise in the Global scenario, leading to food-hassles and lower production (not so in the Europe scenario, which seems well-balanced for this). Most every city in Global Scenario Europe is sharing its fat cross with other cities, sometimes several cities, sometimes cities of other countries. Most every city in Asia (including USSR) and Africa, and probably the Americas, is not sharing its fat cross and can grow to the max size possible. On one hand, this allows for the use of specialists in the European cities, but of course only if there is enough food for them. In contrast, you can build all of the factories in many Asian and African cities in relatively short order and they will become a production powerhouse. This just doesn't seem right, at least in terms of 'high tech' weaponry like tanks and planes and ships. I can certainly buy these colonial cities churning out lots of infantry, even doing so faster than the European cities, but it seems unbalanced that huge modern armies should be produceable in areas which did not have the infrastructure for it.

Similarly, Germany simply doesn't have as many cities as the other major powers do, so production will suffer as a result. Now, of course, one answer to this is for Germany to invade all of its neighbors and grab production capacity that way. Perhaps this is suffiicient, though I wonder if Germany will have enough early production to make that happen.

Lastly, I took a look at the setup for multiplayer and there is no way to set teams -- would it be possible to add this? While it makes sense to allow for a free-for-all among all of the human-controlled countries, it would be silly to have Mexico declaring war on Canada etc. If the above-mentioned possible fixes for relationships among countries isn't feasible, maybe implementing a way to set teams would be?

 

[deanej]

To fix the war problem, perhaps Dale could turn off aggressive AI and adjust the unit build probability and no war probability values in Civ4LeaderHeadInfos to compensate? The diplo bonus/penalty for sharing religion could be adjusted as well, also using favorite religion and setting diplo status via worldbuilder.

An enlarged Europe could help the production issue.

 

[Omathaar]

I think that's a great idea, but this building shouldn't be possible to build anywhere else because people can just hurry production on it with a lot of money.

Thanks! But maybe an incredibly rich nation should be able to pump tons of money into a city in order to industrialize it fast. If the Development bldg is buildable but uber expensive, then only a nation that's already well on the road to victory could afford to hurry it. But the bldg could be as expensive as we want, since if it should be buildable at all, I think it should only really be buildable by hurrying production. But what if Japan got rich enough to flash-industrialize a few of the Pacific islands? That could be realistic...

To simulate the colonies supplying troops to countries, drafting units should be a possiblity again. This way cities without much production experience can still make units. How about they always make the unit one level less than the one you currently have. (can build advanced infantry, can draft improved infantry)

Sweet idea! I hope it's doable. About European cities having low populations, the developed world typically has lower population than the developing world, while still having much more industry. Take India, for instance. Today, China is having to bust its butt to industrialize, even with all its people. But if we do implement some sort of Development bldg, then India, Africa, China, Siberia, Brazil, etc can be realistically populous but industrially weak, and Europe can be powerful despite its cramped quarters, even with low population and few specialists. That's what made Europe more powerful than the more populous Third World, isn't it? Just better industrial and cultural development? Many colonies probly shouldn't even have theaters, and even those could take way long to build without Development bldg.

 

[dwhee]

Those kinds of crashes baffle me. Good luck, Dale!



By 1936, Europe's been developing for centuries longer than any of its colonies. So could you make some basic sort of building or something to represent that development, prerequisite for all factories? And make this "Development" building take a crazy long time to build. Only developed cities would have it, and developing colonies or other small nations would almost never be able to get it built, and that would represent accurately and effectively the big development difference.

Japan's mainland could have these Development buildings, but (I think) China shouldn't, and that would make a big difference. Planes can be expensive and Japan can lack oil early on, but still they'll have that huge industrial advantage over China (and that's realistic, isn't it?). As of now, when I play as Japan I'm able to use Great Engineers to really beef up the production on Japan's scattered Pacific islands, but that doesn't seem right. The islands should be little more than indestructible aircraft carriers, shouldn't they? Japan's mainland should be the main factory that has to fuel everywhere else, right? And if it takes one of these Development buildings to make a place have any industrial capacity, then even Great Engineers on those little islands won't be able to do that much.

And this way, tiny Europe, Britain's main island, and Japan can all be much more powerful than sprawling China or Brazil, even if a human plays China or Brazil.

This is exactly what needs to happen to make this map playable. I would be satisfied with a generic building for the more developed cities, or even with each individual city having its own bonus, represented by a building in the city that gives the bonus.

Really, it's the normal Civ mechanics that are messing up the map at the moment, like culture strangling the smaller countries. Seeing as it's WWII, culture shouldn't even be a factor.

 

[sk8er AG]

I downloaded 3.17 from forum in a zipped file where do i send it?

 

[Chamboozer]

I downloaded 3.17 from forum in a zipped file where do i send it?

Unzip it, then run the file to install.

Anyway, if that's going to happen (the industry building) then unit prices need to be beefed up. Also, I think Dale should make a use for the light tank. Maybe just cut the build time into a fourth of what it is to make it a spam weapon because its so weak.

Anyone else besides me noticed that planes build extremely fast?

 

[Fin Imperial]

Anyone else besides me noticed that planes build extremely fast?

Me.

Development building should something like national wonder, and it would be already built (by Worldbuilder) in the required cities.

 

[Omathaar]

Anyone else besides me noticed that planes build extremely fast?

Ya, me too! Everything needs to me made more expensive if Dale does the Dev bldg. That way, undeveloped places like Africa or Pacific islands can't pump out tanks, and will have trouble making even that many infantry. I love the idea of drafting obsolete infantry (and then you can spend $$ to upgrade them) from colonies, and I think it can be done with XML...I want to look into it a bit more.

Also, I like the idea of planes being made even more expensive than anything else. Someone said fighters should cost 1.5x and bombers 1.7x. Would that be good? And I also like the idea of bombers doing less actual damage but more collateral. But should there still be a limit on bombers' collateral dmg? Cause when I bomb a big stack, bombers stop being effective after they can't do collateral dmg anymore, and I have to go in with fighters. I don't know enough to know if that's realistic. Oh, and randomly, I just love all the new missions you added for planes, Dale! Port bombing rocks. (Why can't you do that in vanilla?) Is there anyway you can make hotkeys for the new air missions?

Also, I think Dale should make a use for the light tank. Maybe just cut the build time into a fourth of what it is to make it a spam weapon because its so weak.

A spam unit would be cool. Anyone know if light tanks would be realistic for this?

 

[Chamboozer]

Ya, me too! Everything needs to me made more expensive if Dale does the Dev bldg. That way, undeveloped places like Africa or Pacific islands can't pump out tanks, and will have trouble making even that many infantry. I love the idea of drafting obsolete infantry (and then you can spend $$ to upgrade them) from colonies, and I think it can be done with XML...I want to look into it a bit more.

Also, I like the idea of planes being made even more expensive than anything else. Someone said fighters should cost 1.5x and bombers 1.7x. Would that be good? And I also like the idea of bombers doing less actual damage but more collateral. But should there still be a limit on bombers' collateral dmg? Cause when I bomb a big stack, bombers stop being effective after they can't do collateral dmg anymore, and I have to go in with fighters. I don't know enough to know if that's realistic. Oh, and randomly, I just love all the new missions you added for planes, Dale! Port bombing rocks. (Why can't you do that in vanilla?) Is there anyway you can make hotkeys for the new air missions?



A spam unit would be cool. Anyone know if light tanks would be realistic for this?

Light tanks wouldn't be realistic historically because most countries of the time viewed tanks as infantry support (small numbers of lightly armed tanks, but combined with infantry), then Germany used them in armored divisions of fast moving, all-around tanks. No-one really thought to use them in great numbers of weak tanks, because no-one wanted to make a weak tank. However, it would be nice to have the option.

It would be realistic for bombers to do less damage against the weakened stacks because it reprisents the units being spread out more.

IMO Factories should take longer to build because right now you can retrofit a new city with all 3 types of factories faster than you can make a new unit in a fully developed city.

I think German PzKpfW IV's were balanced very well in this mod. They feel exactly as they should in my opinion. German and russian infantry are too powerful, though. To simulate the russian's weak miltary (in terms of individual infantry units), the upgrades should be different then they are now.

Russian Early: Standard build time, 20 2
Russian Improved: Halved build time (to reprisent mobilization), 20 2
Russian Advanced: Halved Build time(same as improved), 20 3
Anyone else agree?

I think giving armored units an extreme negative when attacking amphibiously would be more realistic.

There should be a third level of the AT gun/Tank Destroyer. They seem pretty weak at the later tech stages. Heavy/Modern Tank Destroyer anyone?

How long do you plan on improving this mod, Dale? If you are going to keep working on it for a long time, then perhaps you should consider expanding the Tech tree to encompass unique modern units for civs and supermodern units (1990's-21st century style) such as stealth bombers and the like.

Russian Modern Infantry: Halved build time, 25 3

Another thing that I noticed to be strangely missing from the modern unit list are Helicopter Gunships. I can understand the struggle to make them operate realisticaly in the Bitter Winter environment (since It wouldn't make sense for them to not fail missions when aircraft do), but I think it would be a nice improvement if it can be balanced correctly.

BTW, I know i've been making a lot of suggestions for this mod, and I want you to know that I'm not saying it to put pressure on anyone involved with this project. My only intention is to help put ideas on the table for future improvements.

 

[Omathaar]

I know i've been making a lot of suggestions for this mod, and I want you to know that I'm not saying it to put pressure on anyone involved with this project. My only intention is to help put ideas on the table for future improvements.

Me too, just putting ideas on the table. As it is, Dale, you've made by far the best WWII civ iv mod I know of! Maybe even better than Harlan Thompson's Civ II mod, and I'm sure it'll be hands down the best once you work out the bugs.

Chamboozer, yeah, it makes sense for bombers to do less damage once the stack is weak and scattered. And I totally agree with what you said about making factories more expensive. And should Germany start with more already built?

Russian Early: Standard build time, 20 2
Russian Improved: Halved build time (to reprisent mobilization), 20 2
Russian Advanced: Halved Build time(same as improved), 20 3 :movement:

I love it! Different but so appropriate for Russia, I think. And yeah, I think German and Russian infantry are dang powerful. Is that historically accurate? I usually use them in favor of tanks, esp once I get advanced infantry.

And yes on the armored amphibious and yes on the Heavy Anti-Tank thing. But I don't know if we should have supermodern stuff, since the mod ends in 1951. Were helicopters even used much back then? I thought Vietnam was the first big helicopter war. Should we even call the latest units "Modern"? And Dale, I liked the look of my grey-clad Wehrmacht, I was sad to see them become green Modern Infantry. Unique modern units for each civ would be a lot of work, and by no means essential, but it'd be cool.

No pressure, Dale and co, take your time! But I'm excited about this mod.

 

[Chamboozer]

Germans used unsophisticated helicopters for transport about midway through the war. They didn't work too well though. They were used mostly for the transportation of static howitzers through rough terrain. And it was Korea that helicopers became widely used, in that case for medical evacuation.

Main reason for modern units in this mod in the first place was to reprisent what could have existed back then if the germans hadn't been defeated. (I assume). They had some pretty surprisingly advanced stuff on the drawing boards by 1945. This would just be the next step. It will also eliminate the extreme boredom that comes (at least for me) once all the units are researched.

 

[Dale]

I just want to say, love all the ideas for fixing the Global scenario.

But one thing you MUST keep in mind is that any change will have an effect on the other maps too. Remember that my primary focus has always been to have a balanced 1936 Europe and Pacific map (and I think we all agree those two maps rock!)

So please, when making suggestions they need to be viable in ALL scenarios, not just the Global one.

 

[keli]

In my opinion you should boost a bit middle european infantries (hungary, romania, yugoslavia, chechoslovakia..). I played with Hungary yesterday, and it is not possible to live for more than 2 years, since whatever i do germany will attack me. (i gave him money, converted to fascism, we were the "best freinds") And since i have str:5 infantries it is impossible to hold my cities.

 

[Chamboozer]

I just want to say, love all the ideas for fixing the Global scenario.

But one thing you MUST keep in mind is that any change will have an effect on the other maps too. Remember that my primary focus has always been to have a balanced 1936 Europe and Pacific map (and I think we all agree those two maps rock!)

So please, when making suggestions they need to be viable in ALL scenarios, not just the Global one.

Thats one of the things I had first thought of as a reason not to include the "development building", but that building can simply be added to all the cities in Pacific/Europe scenario's if you want. You just have to code it to be indestructible through bombing (in all scenarios) and make it so when the city is captured it does not get destroyed.

For the global map, there's no baku oilfields in Russia, which doesnt make sense because the seizure of them was one of Hitler's primary goals in Operation Barbarossa.

 

[Omathaar]

Should a Dev bldg, if Dale uses it, be added to all the cities on the pacific/euro maps? Or should it still only be added to some? For instance, should only mainland Japan and US have them in the pacific map (or some cities like that), so Japan is still able to reasonably take on larger China, even if planes are more expensive and even if a human plays China? Same for Euro map, maybe some cities wouldn't qualify as "developed."

 

[Chamboozer]

Is it just me, or do the Industry level civics not do anything? Takes me the same amount of time to build military on lvl 1 as it does on Fascist industry.

 

[dankok8]

Europe 1939:

Great Map!! The sides have been well balanced and bitter winter really does hurt the Germans when it comes to a war against the Soviets. A few points to consider though:
1) Why is there no Bulgaria? There is Hungary and Romania and Bulgaria is even mentioned in the scenario as part of the East Balkans, but they are not in.. Why? Give them same infantry strength as surrounding countries and put Sofia in between Istanbul and Bucharest.
2) As Germany, Norway takes way too long to conquer.. at least until the end of 1940 assuming you're conquering France and the Low Countries. I managed to finish Norway off in February '41.
3) British tanks (don't know about American) are exceedingly strong compared to the German tanks. Perhaps tone their tanks down a bit.
4) Put some Canadian (Commonwealth) Infantry down in Britain either as part of the main event in Fortnight 1, September 39' or right from the beginning. I just unloaded ~20 units in Britain as Germany (~10 medium tanks) and decimated them.
5) Eastern Canada just looks very wrong geographically. Charlottetown and Halifax are on islands and St. Johns is part of the UK.
6) Spanish leader should be Franco and it should be Nationalist Iberia, not Azana and Republican Iberia.

Pacific 1941:

Another amazing job. One thing though:
- Make both Chinese and Japanese infantry strength 20. China should have numerical superiority, but not higher quality of troops.

 

[Chamboozer]

Europe 1939:

Great Map!! The sides have been well balanced and bitter winter really does hurt the Germans when it comes to a war against the Soviets. A few points to consider though:
1) Why is there no Bulgaria? There is Hungary and Romania and Bulgaria is even mentioned in the scenario as part of the East Balkans, but they are not in.. Why? Give them same infantry strength as surrounding countries and put Sofia in between Istanbul and Bucharest.
2) As Germany, Norway takes way too long to conquer.. at least until the end of 1940 assuming you're conquering France and the Low Countries. I managed to finish Norway off in February '41.
3) British tanks (don't know about American) are exceedingly strong compared to the German tanks. Perhaps tone their tanks down a bit.
4) Put some Canadian (Commonwealth) Infantry down in Britain either as part of the main event in Fortnight 1, September 39' or right from the beginning. I just unloaded ~20 units in Britain as Germany (~10 medium tanks) and decimated them.
5) Eastern Canada just looks very wrong geographically. Charlottetown and Halifax are on islands and St. Johns is part of the UK.
6) Spanish leader should be Franco and it should be Nationalist Iberia, not Azana and Republican Iberia.

Pacific 1941:

Another amazing job. One thing though:
- Make both Chinese and Japanese infantry strength 20. China should have numerical superiority, but not higher quality of troops.

1) Probably because there's too many countries in the game already. Seeing how the global map works, though, I can't think of a good reason for dale not to include Bulgaria.

2) It seemed to me that it just takes too long to walk across it, not that it's hard to conquer, and that's not really something that can be fixed.

3) I thought they were pretty well balanced, but the light tanks should be weakened for britan and strengthened for Germany IMO.

4) I agree, it's way too easy to conquer Britan in Historical, I did it on the first turn of the war.

5) It took me a long time to figure out what was wrong with Canada geographically, and I finally realized that its because the eastern seaboard of the US is stretched to about 4 times its actual size. This leaves little room for Canada.

6) In historical mode Republican Iberia splits and the spanish civil war occurs with a new nation (Nationalist Iberia w/ Generalismo Franco) at war with them.

I agree with you on Japanese/Chinese infantry, for the most part. The Chinese infantry should be weaker, perhaps 10/15/20, but build a lot faster and the Japanese should be 15/18/20 IMO. Those might seem like strange numbers, but they can't be made as good as the russians and germans (which are overpowered by a lot right now)


Where is the island of Corsica in the Europe map? Maybe i just missed it, but I don't think it's there. Also, no one controls the Canary islands off the coast of Africa. I'm sure this is intentional, but why wasnt an Iberian city put there?

 

[sangeli]

How long until the real RTW 3 is released (i.e. with the CvGameCoreDll folder)?